My friend feels that AC is too high. I said nope it feels right. This led into a discussion.
Can someone post for me a few stats?
What is the maximum AC a 20th lvl Human Fighter can acquire?
What is his maximum (to hit) using a longsword?
What are his hit chances against an Ancient red dragon? no flanking or situational modifiers just two tokens on the board in open ground at melee range for each target.
Thanks in advance.
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You should check out the huge thread about exactly this subject in this exact forum.
The short answer is, a Fighter generally hits an equal level enemy with High AC on a 7+.
You can easily modify this number in combat (not through character building or charop) by about 8 points via status bonuses to hit, status penalties to ac, flat footed, and circumstance bonuses to hit. At low levels this is a bit lower, and on the high end you can do a bit better.
It is reasonable with lots of effort for a fighter to be able to hit on a 2.
Non fighters adjust the base numbers by about (or exactly) 2.
These numbers change by 1 or 2 by each level of difference between you and the target.
The above will likely serve you better than specific examples, which are misleading.
Edit - Originally had fighters on a 9+, confused with Martials.
The average die against enemies of the same level.
Fighter will hit on a 8 at the start and later at 6.
Other Martials will hit on 10 and later 8.
Everyone else usually keep at 11 all the way if they start with a 16 and keep putting boosts on the stat.
Now about your specific questions.
What is the maximum AC a 20th lvl Human Fighter can acquire?
45AC is the maximum that a Fighter can get with Heavy Armor.
What is his maximum (to hit) using a longsword?
+38 being a fighter.
What are his hit chances against an Ancient red dragon? no flanking or situational modifiers just two tokens on the board in open ground at melee range for each target.
The Fighter above will hit on a 7, so 20% to crit and 50% to hit and 30% to miss.
Max Fighter ac is 10+20+6+6+3+2 = 47 I think (base + level + Master+Plate +[+3 rune] + shield raised).
But Fighters do not have the highest AC in the game.
Max Fighter attack is 20+8+7+3 = 38 (level + Legendary + Str[with apex item] + [+3 wep])
Ancient Red Dragon AC = 45, so fighter needs to roll 7 or higher, so 70% hit chance
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KrispyXIV's post is correct comparing PCs to the monster guidelines. Martial PCs tend to have slightly higher AC than those guidelines in many cases (and slightly lower to-hit, if they aren't Fighters).
A 20th level Fighter has a total Ac of 45 (+26 from Proficiency +6 Armor/Dex +3 Magic Armor), or 47 with a shield raised (Paladins can get two higher, for 47, 49 with a shield, and Monks can get 46, 48 with a shield). At that level, a monster with High AC (sorta the default) is about the same as a Fighter.
At lower levels, however, there's more difference. At 1st, a Fighter probably maxes at 18 or 19 (20 or 21 with a shield), while a monster with High Ac has only a 16. At 11th, the Fighter probably has an AC of between 31 and 33, with 32 as an average (33 to 35 with a shield), while a monster with High AC has only a 31.
So yeah, I hope that's helpful.
Is your friend's point that it is too hard for people to hit appropriate challenges, or is the point that because AC scales so fast, the band of appropriate challenges is too narrow?
Both have their supporters and their detractors here but they're kind of separate issues.
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Is your friend's point that it is too hard for people to hit appropriate challenges, or is the point that because AC scales so fast, the band of appropriate challenges is too narrow?
The problem, imo, is when you start stretching those ranges, or using suboptimal characters, or most damningly, both.
An optimized fighter might start with a 7, but a battle cleric or sorcerer (etc) will often be looking at an 11 or 12 against that same enemy, turning their most accurate attack of the round into something worse than a coin flip. Now put them up against a boss and that can turn into a 16, 17 or 18 just like that.
It becomes pretty easy for a challenging encounter to render such a character's build choices pretty much obsolete by making them nearly impossible to succeed at those tasks. Not just 'difficult' or 'challenging' but putting things in the 'don't bother trying' area.
That's where the math breaks down and imo talking about well built fighters being good at hitting things feels almost misleading because that's literally the class' specialty.
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I would not use an unbuffed battle cleric or sorcerer as the primary comparison target, because those are still casters. They have spells to compensate for that.
The standard should be other martials, which generally run at -2 to hit from fighters.
I'm not talking about standards, though. I'm talking about the ways the math starts to break down when some of the numbers are stretched by options I specifically called out as nonstandard, but are still presented as reasonable choices the game lets you make.
KrispyXIV's post is correct comparing PCs to the monster guidelines. Martial PCs tend to have slightly higher AC than those guidelines in many cases (and slightly lower to-hit, if they aren't Fighters).
A 20th level Fighter has a total Ac of 45 (+26 from Proficiency +6 Armor/Dex +3 Magic Armor), or 47 with a shield raised (Paladins can get two higher, for 47, 49 with a shield, and Monks can get 46, 48 with a shield). At that level, a monster with High AC (sorta the default) is about the same as a Fighter.
At lower levels, however, there's more difference. At 1st, a Fighter probably maxes at 18 or 19 (20 or 21 with a shield), while a monster with High Ac has only a 16. At 11th, the Fighter probably has an AC of between 31 and 33, with 32 as an average (33 to 35 with a shield), while a monster with High AC has only a 31.
So yeah, I hope that's helpful.
Have I... missed something somewhere where the max ability score is 20 without an Apex item or something?
If not, your numbers are wrong for the Monk. 28 from Proficiency, 10 from AC base, 7 from Dex with an Apex item with a Dex of 24, 3 from runes for a standing total of 48, and 50 with a shield.
Edit: Ahh, I forgot about the stupid max Dex bonus on Explorers clothes, so you have to choose to neuter your Dex to get the maximum benefits out of being Unarmored.
Monks can get 46, 48 with a shield
Mountain Style Monks can match Paladins: 26 +4(style) +2(dex)+ 2(stronghold) +3 (magic), but that's the "heavy armor" type of monk.
I don't think it would be too bad is players succeeded more often on their first attack, just make it less effective.
For example if every monster had a lower AC, just raise the monster's HP by an appropriate amount.
It will never be perfect because it makes crits also more likely, but it can be approximated.
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Sephiroth, You can already hit on a 2 on your first attack...
...if you put in enough effort that it was unmistakably a lot of effort to do so.
At which point its rewarding to do so, and not just boring status quo.
And you can't tweak the current numbers really without making all attacks extremely accurate as the baseline norm.
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Edit: Ahh, I forgot about the stupid max Dex bonus on Explorers clothes, so you have to choose to neuter your Dex to get the maximum benefits out of being Unarmored.
You can still have Dex 24, the last few points just don't add to AC...they still add to Reflex Saves, Attacks, and everything else.
Monks can get 46, 48 with a shieldMountain Style Monks can match Paladins: 26 +4(style) +2(dex)+ 2(stronghold) +3 (magic), but that's the "heavy armor" type of monk.
Ah, right. Sorry, spaced Mountain Style for a second, there.
With the execptions given below (sub-par choices) in this edition the numbers crunch usually happens in the battle, not before the battle. Using flanking, flat-footed, buffs (Inspire Courage, Bless, Heroism) and debuffs (frightened, sickened) can hugely affect the math.
Applying these modifiers might take some actions and effort and may be easier to achieve for some characters or groups than they are for others, e.g. when your group does not have a bard or your party is generally bad at applying said conditions (fighter not using a weapon that applies a meaningful condition on a crit, rogue missed to take the Gang Up feat etc).
Having said so and as pointed out above the out-of-the-box to-hit numbers can easily be vastly different depending on your class and level. For example and before applying conditions or buffs/debuffs, while our level 7 party fighter has +18 to-hit and will usually be able to hit an even level enemy on a 6 to 10 using his first attack, my warpriest only has +13 to-hit on his Fire Ray focus spell and it will therefore take him a 11 to 15 to hit even on-level creatures.
Sephiroth, You can already hit on a 2 on your first attack...
...if you put in enough effort
You make it sound like I have a lot more agency about it than I feel I do.
I am playing a lv2 crane monk with +1 handwraps, what can I actually do other than put myself in a flanking position?
Sephiroth, You can already hit on a 2 on your first attack...
...if you put in enough effort
You make it sound like I have a lot more agency about it than I feel I do.
I am playing a lv2 crane monk with +1 handwraps, what can I actually do other than put myself in a flanking position?
By yourself? At that level, the only thing you can really do to give yourself a bonus is ki strike (which, I might add, is a very good focus spell. I've seen it in play and it can tear through enemies) and you don't have a lot of options for imposing penalties unless you have good Charisma for Demoralize.
But you have a party you can rely on. Casters can cast spells like Fear or Goblin Pox to cripple enemies. Barbarians, Rogues, and Fighters all have special ways to pose Frightened. Bards can consistently give the entire party +1 to hit.
Monks strengths aren't in buffing or debuffing, but that's why you have other players.
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Sephiroth, You can already hit on a 2 on your first attack...
...if you put in enough effort
You make it sound like I have a lot more agency about it than I feel I do.
I am playing a lv2 crane monk with +1 handwraps, what can I actually do other than put myself in a flanking position?
That "you" did encompass your entire party.
At level 2 and using a +1 weapon your probable hit numbers are 8+/9+ versus AC17 or AC18 on an even level opponent (assuming that your to-hit is +9).
However it is possible to shift this numbers by 6 even at level 2. Considering you are buffed (e.g. friendly cleric casts Bless +1), the enemy is debuffed (Fear spell or Demoralize -2), you are flanking (+2) and a friendly melee manages to aid you in combat using his 3rd action (+1) these numbers come down to 2+/3+.
Note that the above is in vitro theory and might not be easily applicable in play, respectively might need a lot of insight into the game meta, a little bit of luck and proper teamwork in order to work out properly.
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It was probably worth qualifying my earlier post with, "Pathfinder 2E is inherently a team game, and attempting to go solo will result in a punishing, frustrating experience as the game is designed assuming your party has a pool of actions they are employing together with what synergy you can find from your team composition."
Four characters spending their 3 actions to their own benefit without considering their fellow party members will have a difficult time.
That said, almost all party compositions will be able to find synergy, as most classes have access to good support abilities, and many skills are extremely viable in combat. The simplest to apply are Intimidate and Demoralize and Athletics and Trip.
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Our group last night (level 5) had the fighter and Champion getting a net +7 to hit against a pair of drakes (level 6).
+2 flanking, +2 assist, +1 inspire courage, (effective) +2 due to failed Fear save. This wasn't particularly hard to do, and meant that the martials had a strong chance of critting every round and had a decent shot of hitting with a third attack (fighter had haste).