Can a character or creature choose to take the Stride action and not leave their square? The GM is telling me that the target of my agitate spell is spending the action, but opting not to move from his square. That way, it takes no damage, remains in melee with me, and can ignore most of the effects of my spell.
I don't think so. That just seems like your GM cheating you out of your Spell.
For RAW Support:
Stride [one-action] (basic action) Move up to your Speed. 471
move (trait) An action with this trait involves moving from one space to another. 474
Stand breaks that Rule, but I believe that is a specific exception.
But nothing is preventing it from moving 5' diagonally, or 5' away and then 5' back to still be in melee with you.
Can a character or creature choose to take the Stride action and not leave their square? The GM is telling me that the target of my agitate spell is spending the action, but opting not to move from his square. That way, it takes no damage, remains in melee with me, and can ignore most of the effects of my spell.
Quick question: Does anyone have a reaction like attack of opportunity?
If not, then I wouldn't argue this point too much. The spell doesn't say you need to actually stride to any particular location. So it is valid to stride in a circle. If that circle doesn't pass by a reach fighter, then the specifics likely don't matter (why waste the effort and risk knocking over minis when you have no net effect?)
Basically, the spell is making the target waste his time doing that goofy shuffle everyone does when waiting in line at the bathroom.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really hope that one day I get the time to run more games. You seem like a great player with a very antagonistic gm.
Nobody is perfect and not everyone is going to be happy with every ruling. I play under a handful of rotating GMs, so I guess it can sound worse than it is. It's not one bad apple messing with me all the time insomuch as it is occasional missteps made by different people.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think so. That just seems like your GM cheating you out of your Spell.
For RAW Support:
Stride [one-action] (basic action) Move up to your Speed. 471move (trait) An action with this trait involves moving from one space to another. 474
Let's bold that differently:
Stride [one-action] (basic action) Move up to your Speed. 471
It only lists a maximum, not a minimum.
That's probably for the better because otherwise, a lot of abilities that work like "you stride, then do something special" would require you to stride even if you were already in the right position.
Compare that to the Long Jump action:
You Stride, then make a horizontal Leap and attempt an Athletics check to increase the length of your jump. The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so you’d need to succeed at a DC 20 check to Leap 20 feet). You can’t Leap farther than your Speed.
If you didn’t Stride at least 10 feet, or if you attempt to jump in a different direction than your Stride, you automatically fail your check. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.
Here we do have a minimum striding distance. If Agitate was intended to include a minimum distance traveled, they could have recycled that language.
|
Ascalaphus has it right - up to is mathematically smaller or equal and 0 definitely is smaller.
Stride [one-action] (basic action) Move up to your Speed. 471
Aratorin nearly had me convinced otherwise
move (trait) An action with this trait involves moving from one space to another. 474
But in cases like that it helps to look at other action including the move feat to get the intend of the developers. How important is the moving to another space part.
Both Stand-up and Fall Prone have the move trait. You don't leave your space in either case.
But due to move trait even if he stays in the same square he still would provoke. So if staying in the square tries to counter an AoO then this won't work.
So the GM had the right of it to stay in place - it isn't clear if he did so for the wrong motivation (avoid AoO - which wouldn't work).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that you can stride in place, like on a treadmill.
Moving your legs that way should be enough action for Agitate; but I would rule that in cases like that you still provoke.
Unless you take the Moonwalker feat, in that case you are just awesome.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, interesting catch about the AoO still happening even if you don't leave the square, after all:
ATTACK OF OPPORTUNITY [reaction]
Trigger A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using.
---
You lash out at a foe that leaves an opening. Make a melee Strike
(Also has interesting implications for other Stride-then-do-something abilities.)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wow that is interesting, the way AoO is written it's the move action and not moving an actual space that causes the AoO.
It's not only AoO (I think a lot of us still have a bad habit or looking at/talking about AoO specifically, instead of reactions in general). Other reactions like Disrupt Prey and Stand Still would also trigger. The case where the difference matters is when the creature is boxed in so that it can't stride without having having to shove someone out of the way or tumble through someone's square first.
I don't think so. That just seems like your GM cheating you out of your Spell.
For RAW Support:
Stride [one-action] (basic action) Move up to your Speed. 471move (trait) An action with this trait involves moving from one space to another. 474Let's bold that differently:
Stride [one-action] (basic action) Move up to your Speed. 471It only lists a maximum, not a minimum.
That's probably for the better because otherwise, a lot of abilities that work like "you stride, then do something special" would require you to stride even if you were already in the right position.
Compare that to the Long Jump action:
You Stride, then make a horizontal Leap and attempt an Athletics check to increase the length of your jump. The DC of the Athletics check is equal to the total distance in feet you’re attempting to move during your Leap (so you’d need to succeed at a DC 20 check to Leap 20 feet). You can’t Leap farther than your Speed.
If you didn’t Stride at least 10 feet, or if you attempt to jump in a different direction than your Stride, you automatically fail your check. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.
Here we do have a minimum striding distance. If Agitate was intended to include a minimum distance traveled, they could have recycled that language.
I agree that up to only sets a maximum, but I contend that the requirement to move from one space to another sets a minimum of 5 feet.
I think either interpretation could work fine as RAW, but I certainly don't think that the RAI is that you can Stride without actually Moving.
Let's say that Ravingdork's comrade Shoves a creature into a 15' deep 5'x5' square, so that it physically cannot Move to any other square. Ravingdork then casts Agitate. I think it is very much intended that the creature would take damage each turn, due to not having anywhere to Stride.
Definitely agree with the reading that you have to actually move somewhere for your Stride to count.
I agree that you can stride in place, like on a treadmill.
Moving your legs that way should be enough action for Agitate; but I would rule that in cases like that you still provoke.Unless you take the Moonwalker feat, in that case you are just awesome.
Moonwalker feat? I can't seem to find that in the rules anywhere. Source?
EDIT:
*Googles moonwalker*
Oh.
Just how old are you anyways? X'D
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There are kids out there who know what moonwalking is. It's not really outdated beyond "nobody actually does it".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am of the opinion that you can move zero distance, but not to avoid provoking or any other negative consequences of movement.
Stride clearly says "up to".
I agree, you stride 0 distance, but it still provokes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am of the opinion that you can move zero distance, but not to avoid provoking or any other negative consequences of movement.
Stride clearly says "up to".
I am also in the camp of "you have to burn an action and this action provokes, however you don't have to physically move."
If Drop Prone, and Stand, didn't have the move trait, then I think the "moving from one space to another" clause within the move trait could maybe say you have to move. But we already have at least two move-trait actions that don't leave the square.
So yes treating it as slowed 1 + triggering reactions triggered by move trait, seems correct.
|
|
I agree that up to only sets a maximum, but I contend that the requirement to move from one space to another sets a minimum of 5 feet.
No
I already mentioned Stand-up and Fall Prone.
Here are a few more actions with the move trait:
Balance and Tumble-through
In these cases you might try to move - but on a failure you stay where you are.
Another one:
Maneuver in Flight - has the move speed. It does allow hover midair. Actually Hover Midair is easier as reverse direction (fly forward 5 and back again)
Squeeze:
Critical Success You squeeze through the tight space in
1 minute per 10 feet of squeezing.
Success: You squeeze through in 1 minute per 5 feet.
Here even on success or critical success you won't move 5 feet in the same round.
Climb:
Does up and down count leaving a square?
Swim:
Again - on a fail you don't leave the sqaure.
And finally Perform
Dance as performance gains the move trait but you perform (Dance) doesn't move you anywhere.
Is 'striding in place' cheesy? Definitely ! But I can't see any reason why the move trait would force you for stride to move out of your sqaure when this hardly applies to any other action with the move trait and in a lot of cases are explicit clauses that keep you in the same square.
I am firmly in the "you have to move at least 5 feet when you stride" camp. First, it's super cheesy and borderline cheating. Secondly, if you don't have to move then it will strengthen several PC feats and monster abilities that require a movement as part of the action.
I am firmly in the "you have to move at least 5 feet when you stride" camp. First, it's super cheesy and borderline cheating. Secondly, if you don't have to move then it will strengthen several PC feats and monster abilities that require a movement as part of the action.
It is nowhere near cheesy or even in the same hemisphere as cheating... so long as the party in question is suffering all the consequences of moving and an action with the Move trait.
The spell in question is fantastic for its level and lack of Incapacitation trait even if the target doesn't have to change squares.
|
Yeah... I'll just be honest here and tell it how I see it.
I agree with Kelseus but with perhaps a bit more enthusiasm, trying to say that you can take a Stride for 0 feet is not only cheesy and borderline cheating, but it is also flat out stupid and munchkin nonsense in an attempt to game the wording of the rules to powergame themselves out of the CLEAR intent of the mechanics that are added to try to balance the ability.
If you take a Stride Action and try to justify "up to" for 0 feet then I would point to the word "Move" as it relates to the rules and also common sense. I'd kindly ask them to get back on their rocker because they are surely off it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah... I'll just be honest here and tell it how I see it.
I agree with Kelseus but with perhaps a bit more enthusiasm, trying to say that you can take a Stride for 0 feet is not only cheesy and borderline cheating, but it is also flat out stupid and munchkin nonsense in an attempt to game the wording of the rules to powergame themselves out of the CLEAR intent of the mechanics that are added to try to balance the ability.
If you take a Stride Action and try to justify "up to" for 0 feet then I would point to the word "Move" as it relates to the rules and also common sense. I'd kindly ask them to get back on their rocker because they are surely off it.
This definitely reads like a personal attack against anyone that disagrees with your position.
Also, the index entry (quoted earlier in this thread) for the move trait refers to page 474 which clearly AND EXPLICITLY allows for Move actions that don't change a characters location - "If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability."
An index entry is not the actual rules text, and does not override the actual page reference it provides.
Striding 0 fulfills all of the requirements of the Stride action, and is not a violation of the movement rules which explain explicitly how that interacts with reactions.
|
|
I mean, if calling a duck a duck is a personal attack I guess so but trying to say you can move 0 feet on a Stride when the rules state that Movement is made in 5-foot increments (where 0 is not an increment of 5) is just nonsense and blatantly ignoring the RAW and RAI.
Movement is done 5 feet at a time, if you don't move at least 5 feet you're not moving at all and haven't used the Stride Action.
Any other interpretation is a willful suspension of disbelief in an attempt to cheat the rules. The 'Move' Trait itself even explicitly states that any action that uses it involves moving from "one space to another" and since you cannot change where your PC is to another space by moving 0 feet, that means that the bare minimum movement to qualify for Stride is 5 ft (or whatever the custom grid measurement the GM might be using such as 1 ft squares/hexes for min 1). Sorry, not sorry.
I mean, if calling a duck a duck is a personal attack I guess so but trying to say you can move 0 feet on a Stride when the rules state that Movement is made in 5-foot increments (where 0 is not an increment of 5) is just nonsense and blatantly ignoring the RAW and RAI.
Movement is done 5 feet at a time, if you don't move at least 5 feet you're not moving at all and haven't used the Stride Action.
Any other interpretation is a willful suspension of disbelief in an attempt to cheat the rules. Sorry, not sorry.
You seem to have employed "willful disbelief" in this case to the rules as written.
Aratorin's earlier quote is of an index summary of the move trait, which refers (in his quote) to the full rules for movement on page 474.
These full rules refer to what happens in the case of actions with the move trait that don't leave a square.
Stride allows for movement "up to" your movement value, which is any value between 0 and Your Movement.
Using Stride to move 0 is RAW (and presumably RAI), unless you can actually point to anything that actually indicates otherwise.
I am firmly in the "you have to move at least 5 feet when you stride" camp. First, it's super cheesy and borderline cheating. Secondly, if you don't have to move then it will strengthen several PC feats and monster abilities that require a movement as part of the action.It is nowhere near cheesy or even in the same hemisphere as cheating... so long as the party in question is suffering all the consequences of moving and an action with the Move trait.
The spell in question is fantastic for its level and lack of Incapacitation trait even if the target doesn't have to change squares.
Maybe cheating isn't the right word, but I feel like you are reading the rules in bad faith to gain a benefit at the expense of the other people at the table.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe cheating isn't the right word, but I feel like you are reading the rules in bad faith to gain a benefit at the expense of the other people at the table.
And what exactly is the cheating part here? That you can Fly 0 but not Stride 0?
Maybe cheating isn't the right word, but I feel like you are reading the rules in bad faith to gain a benefit at the expense of the other people at the table.I am firmly in the "you have to move at least 5 feet when you stride" camp. First, it's super cheesy and borderline cheating. Secondly, if you don't have to move then it will strengthen several PC feats and monster abilities that require a movement as part of the action.It is nowhere near cheesy or even in the same hemisphere as cheating... so long as the party in question is suffering all the consequences of moving and an action with the Move trait.
The spell in question is fantastic for its level and lack of Incapacitation trait even if the target doesn't have to change squares.
As a personal guideline, I always rule to the favor of the players in the case of any ambiguity at all.
|
|
Here, I'll just link it and make it easy. I'm sorry if I came off as coarse but the answer here is black and white with no room for interpretation, I should be kind to ignorance and I apologize for that.
The reason you can Fly 0 is because the rules spell out that it is possible, in other words, it matches the "permissive" nature of the rules at-large whereby if you CAN do something the rules say you can do so. There is no such rule that states you can Stride 0, unlike Fly which does include that function.
It goes like this: Agitats says they have to take the Stride Action > The Stride Action states you move up to your Speed and has the Move Trait > The Move Trait says that any Action with this trait involves changing your Space > There is no rule specifying that you CAN Stride for 0 Feet which would be required as set by the precedent of Fly 0 which is the exception to the rule.
If they have to Stride, they have to change squares, fake moving like on a treadmill isn't a move action since they are not changing squares, in other words, it's some brand new on-the-fly houserules Action that the GM made up to screw RD out of his spell.
Neither Stand nor Drop Prone leave their square, how do you reconcile that with your view?
Swim doesn't appear to allow motionless treading water, but I'd typically allow that, with the Swim check to avoid beginning to drown.
Here, I'll just link it and make it easy. I'm sorry if I came off as coarse but the answer here is black and white with no room for interpretation, I should be kind to ignorance and I apologize for that.
The reason you can Fly 0 is because the rules spell out that it is possible, in other words, it matches the "permissive" nature of the rules at-large whereby if you CAN do something the rules say you can do so. There is no such rule that states you can Stride 0, unlike Fly which does include that function.
That's better, but its really just the SRD page for the index entry. The rules for movement and the specific actions are more specific and should take precedence.
None of the other action entries, such as tumble through or balance which implicitly allow you to not move from one square to another specify the ability to move 0, and yet the rules do not implode there.
Finally, Stride does not need to say 0 as written - "Up to" is inclusive of zero in more or less all common usage, unless something specifies otherwise.
Also also, this is only remotely relevant because we are assuming play on a grid.
If you are not playing on a grid, there is no question that you may 100% Stride .0000001 feet, remaining in melee in the original example, provoking an AOO, and resulting in absolutely no functional change in location.
Being unable to Stride 0 on a Grid is a silly consequence for playing on a Grid.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just Leaping straight up also does not let you leave your space despite the move trait, just saying.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Move Trait says that any Action with this trait involves changing your Space
"Drop Prone" is a Basic Action with the Move trait (CRB, pg 470)
"Stand" is a Basic Action with the Move trait (CRB, pg 471)But you don't change your space when you use either Action.
|
|
Very good points about Stand and Drop Prone but looking at them it seems as though they were given 3-5 words to describe it in relation to the Prone Condition. Perhaps this is because they were attempting to cut word-count since it was already pointing to another section of the rules that take a lot of space up near the end of the book.
Swim involves a check that is far more specific in regard to the results and a failure results in no movement but I can see your point about trying to swim in place, there doesn't seem to be any such RAW support for it but then again I don't think that's required because, theoretically, you could simply swim "up" in the water to remain floating and simply stop moving at the surface of the water to remain in place. There is also the idea of voluntarily failing a skill check but that's not really allowed due to critical failure results... down the rabbit hole we go I suppose. This is an issue with the Balance Skill as well... hmmm
Looking deeper into it, the one Action out of any that makes me question this on the specific vs general style of the question is, strangely enough, the Perform (Dance) Action. The Skill usage doesn't seem very specific at ALL in regard to if do or don't move from your square... but the I don't think the intent here is REALLY that you cannot "dance in place" but rather instead to interact with AoO and similar mechanics.
That aside, I cannot think of a single reason why a player or GM would think it is justified to just say "I don't move from my square" when the whole point of the spell itself is literally to do JUST that and the opponent failed their Save and the spell even specifies a specific Action that is codified to move. This would be akin to making a Strike Action against an imaginary friendly creature (0) that you're "picturing in your mind" when you are compelled to attack the nearest creature/ally.
You're crazy if you think the spell is better if it forces people to walk away from you. Its massively more powerful making the target stand there and provoke from your AOO character, and they're still there to get wailed on on your allies turn as well.
Its basically a lower level Uncontrollable Dance, which is amazing at its level.
They should absolutely walk away, instead of wasting the action. Please, stand there and provoke for free.
Or take 2d8/level, which is great.
I showed Agitate to my bard player and he immediately started on about Power Creep.
Honestly, wouldn't it be valid for the character simply to move into the adjacent square and move back?
Depending on what's around them, that should be perfectly valid.
And how many people in your group are going to have AoO and all be standing next to the same enemy?
I see this as more an attempt to get an enemy away from a squishy ally.
That depends. Even if there is space to move away and then step back into the same square, reactions like No Escape could make the mechanical difference between that and this 0ft stride idea relevant. Not every reaction provoked by movement is an AoO variant.
|
|
Themetricsystem
How do you interpret Uncontrollable Dance:
The target is overcome with an all-consuming urge to dance. For the duration of the spell, the target is flat-footed and can't use reactions. While affected, the creature can't use actions with the move trait except to dance, [b]using the Stride action to move up to half its Speed.[b]
The interesting bit is - it uses 'dance,' not 'dance or'
If agitate forces you to move out of a square, then Uncontrollable Dance using a comma and not an or forces you as well out of a square as you use the stride action to dance.
On failure you stride twice, on crit failure you stride three times.
What is undisputed - you lose an action and trigger AoO even if you stride in place. But the more I look at alternative spells / actions the more I belief stride 0 is an option and the smaller evil.
Keep in mind - I never heard someone performing using dance is actually moving away from the space he is in. Uncontrollable Dance does allow it in my mind - but isn't forcing it.
Otherwise we would open another can of worms. Looking at performance, dance I could see a bard using a free action - Lingering Performance - using dance as his performance - and getting a free movement out of it. Even if it is just a step 5 foot.
Also worth noting is that No Escape doesn't trigger on exactly the same events as Attack of Opportunity, and does not reference the move trait.
Striding (or otherwise moving) 0 would not trigger it, nor would moving to any point that is not further away from the No Escape User than they started.
Honestly, wouldn't it be valid for the character simply to move into the adjacent square and move back?
Depending on what's around them, that should be perfectly valid.
And how many people in your group are going to have AoO and all be standing next to the same enemy?
I see this as more an attempt to get an enemy away from a squishy ally.
Shuffle back or forth, run around in a circle and end up at the same spot, cha cha slide. Various methods to do it, but in the end, the spell never says you have to end up at any particular location. it is just that you are bursting with energy, and you will ACTUALLY burst if you don't do something about it.
The spell is a spell to waste actions for several turns, and perhaps force the enemy to draw reactions. It doesn't force you to abandon the allies you were guarding.
Even if you tried to use it for that and got a ruling that the enemy had to go somewhere, the enemy could go from slightly of the right of their wizard to slight to the left (10' movement).
Seriously though, is anyone willing to say in good faith that it is reasonable that this Is intended to work differently with or without a grid?
It is absolutely clear that if playing without a Grid, I may Stride an insignificant distance legally (.00001 feet), and move such that my position has not meaningfully changed.
For the game to be meaningfully the same on a Grid, I should be able to Stride and not leave my current square. This violates no actual Rules Text, and any other possibility is downright silly.
|
|
We just aren't going to see eye to eye I suppose but I stand my ground that the RAW here is that using the basic Stride Action will and should always result in you changing what space you are in at some point during the movement.
Also, if you don't BEGIN your Move, you cannot END your move. If you hand me 0 apples, you have not performed the task of handing me something. Talk about good/bad faith here, sheesh. Pulling this kinda crap on a player is a move action indeed, a dick move.