|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not "incensed about critiquing" any media, my words were meant to convey that if one feels that strongly about this AP, they should go over all the other APs with a fine tooth come and rant about those as well.
Have you not been paying attention to all the people doing exactly that?
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Sunderstone, Yes you should.
Something being problematic doesn’t mean you should burn everything attached to it and never deal with it and associated media ever again, you should however be critical of the problematic parts, why they’re problematic, and not accept that they simply have to be.
As for “coincidence”, police brutality and targeting minorities has been a long glaring issue in America, it’s not an isolated case that just popped up overnight.
You are quite right about the longevity and extent of the problem of discrimination. But it being in the harsh glare of the news' spotlight basically worldwide is extremely recent.
Very similar to the "me too" wave not so long ago.
I feel that systems that have tolerated discriminations for so many years are quickly reaching their breaking point.
Good riddance to those IMO.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But was there an uproar over this AP when it was announced ? There might have been. I can’t remember
To be fair I'm not into the 2E stuff, so I don't recall any uproar from the few Agent threads I did read.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm half tempted to start a tangent thread titled "Is now a good time for (insert any AP here)? Is ever?"
;)
I'm just saddened about James Sutter feeling obligated to post what he did on his blog or whatever, He obviously feels strongly enough about it to donate his pay to boot. I applaud his stance despite my thinking his reactions are a tad overboard (IMHO again). If he feels better about it, then it's all good.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But was there an uproar over this AP when it was announced ? There might have been. I can’t remember@Sunderstone, Yes you should.
Something being problematic doesn’t mean you should burn everything attached to it and never deal with it and associated media ever again, you should however be critical of the problematic parts, why they’re problematic, and not accept that they simply have to be.
As for “coincidence”, police brutality and targeting minorities has been a long glaring issue in America, it’s not an isolated case that just popped up overnight.
Nope litarally only been the last twoish weeks or so and pretty much 3/4 to 2/3 of it within this thread.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's been criticisms of it around, but generally speaking the kind of people who actively talk about police abolition don't tend to hang out on RPG forums. It's just now more people are talking about it and have awareness of it, and understand that cop stories are rather fraught.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So people criticising the AP before the last month weren’t from rpg forums? So are they even part of the customer base ?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I said "generally speaking", not "all". Otherwise Zimmerwald would just be a figment of our imaginations.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
generally speaking the kind of people who actively talk about police abolition don't tend to hang out on RPG forums.
I feel like they are vastly overrepresented on RPG forums...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But was there an uproar over this AP when it was announced ? There might have been. I can’t remember@Sunderstone, Yes you should.
Something being problematic doesn’t mean you should burn everything attached to it and never deal with it and associated media ever again, you should however be critical of the problematic parts, why they’re problematic, and not accept that they simply have to be.
As for “coincidence”, police brutality and targeting minorities has been a long glaring issue in America, it’s not an isolated case that just popped up overnight.
Widespread disinterest in it (A Cop AP? Oof) for the most part, the recent spat of police brutalities just ignited it even worse.
Before I found out the authors I was considering dropping the subscription, since I have no interest in a police procedural AP.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I’ll admit, I was excited for Agents of Edgewatch, but given recent events, and the long history that fuels them, is there ever a good time for an Adventure Path with player characters as Cops, especially in a game that doesn’t really handle non-violent solutions and de-escalation well?
Paizo recently released a statement, in support of the protests and their message. I know by now books are either printed or on their way to be printed and it would be a scramble or even impossible to cover that hole in the schedule.
I don’t have answers here, but I think it’s important that these concerns get brought up somewhere the company can see them and address them.
I am, and continue to be excited for this AP. It makes sense, given the times, that the topic be addressed in a respectful way. Also, I see no problem whatsoever in having it released now, or whenever.
This is a roleplaying game, and as such we separate between fantasy and reality. We also can choose to play a campaign however it fits for our group. This is how it has always been, and I don't see this as being any different. Moreover, in the 2e core rulebook there is a whole section on themes and such. My sense is that if a theme could affect the players, then it should be discussed, and those sections in the core assist with that.
No doubt, this is a challenging time we are living through, but I think we have the tools to assist us in being respectful while playing the game we love.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
But was there an uproar over this AP when it was announced ? There might have been. I can’t remember@Sunderstone, Yes you should.
Something being problematic doesn’t mean you should burn everything attached to it and never deal with it and associated media ever again, you should however be critical of the problematic parts, why they’re problematic, and not accept that they simply have to be.
As for “coincidence”, police brutality and targeting minorities has been a long glaring issue in America, it’s not an isolated case that just popped up overnight.
Widespread disinterest in it (A Cop AP? Oof) for the most part, the recent spat of police brutalities just ignited it even worse.
Before I found out the authors I was considering dropping the subscription, since I have no interest in a police procedural AP.
Widespread disinterest? Admittedly I spend more time on the Pathfinder subs on reddit than here, but I saw virtually entirely positive, if not wildly hyped, reactions from announcement until basically just this thread.
I think a lot of folks were very excited to play CSI: Absalom, as I've seen it repeatedly called. No one I saw talking about it called it anything like "the Cop AP," and it's really only very recently that I've seen the shift in expectations from being detectives to being police officers.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But was there an uproar over this AP when it was announced ? There might have been. I can’t remember@Sunderstone, Yes you should.
Something being problematic doesn’t mean you should burn everything attached to it and never deal with it and associated media ever again, you should however be critical of the problematic parts, why they’re problematic, and not accept that they simply have to be.
As for “coincidence”, police brutality and targeting minorities has been a long glaring issue in America, it’s not an isolated case that just popped up overnight.
Widespread disinterest in it (A Cop AP? Oof) for the most part, the recent spat of police brutalities just ignited it even worse.
Before I found out the authors I was considering dropping the subscription, since I have no interest in a police procedural AP.
Widespread disinterest? Admittedly I spend more time on the Pathfinder subs on reddit than here, but I saw virtually entirely positive, if not wildly hyped, reactions from announcement until basically just this thread.
I think a lot of folks were very excited to play CSI: Absalom, as I've seen it repeatedly called. No one I saw talking about it called it anything like "the Cop AP," and it's really only very recently that I've seen the shift in expectations from being detectives to being police officers.
This. I always saw it referee to as CSI and this was linked to the release of the associated class
My earlier question was semi rhetorical . People weren’t strongly criticising this a year ago (if there was even any criticism at all) and as mentioned here it is only in the last few weeks (and in this thread) that is has suddenly become a “Cop AP”
|
|
I don’t spend much time on Reddit, but what I saw on here and Discords was varying amounts of “meh”, especially following Extinction Curse.
As for why you didn’t see people “strongly criticizing” it a year ago, we didn’t know much about then as we do now, which is not much more I’ll admit. But enough.
| 20 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have been holding my tongue for a bit to listen to other folks perspectives, and to give myself time to collect my thoughts.
I applaud Sutter for acknowledging that he probably wasn't thinking about the systemic and racist nature of police violence in the United States when he was originally writing this book and that he is listening to our voices now and realizing that there might be parts of his adventure that are going to be traumatizing to some audiences. That is a really thoughtful position to take. It does not feel to me like an admonition that the entire AP, or even his book, is going to be PCs running rampant through marginalized communities, killing and looting civilians or even glorifying the need for social order over protection and justice for all.
I have no idea what other people's experiences are with police violence, but I have been beaten with night sticks, trampled by an officer on a horse, tear gassed, and had dear friends standing next to me as they were hit with mace pellets and rubber bullets, and tasered repeatedly. I have had friends get all of their fingers broken by officers trying to finger print them, and I was standing right outside of a medical center at a protest over a decade ago where the police broke windows, threw in tear gas canisters and as a result, one protester died and a medic, trying to get people out of that environment had to abandon his PPE and end up contracting spinal meningitis and dying a week later. I have had FBI agents follow me everywhere I go, plant bugs in my house, call my parents and tell them lies about me, and subpoena me to appear before a grand jury to prevent me from attending protests, and basically ensure that most of my extended family and friends saw me as a potential terrorist for years afterwards.
I cannot speak for everyone who has ever experienced violence at the hands of the police, and especially not people of color who grew up with the fear of state violence as an intrinsic part of life, but I can speak for myself and say that, in fantasy, avoiding situations where people with extreme amounts of power, like PCs, are given responsibilities by communities and expected to uphold the legal codes established by those communities is a terrible terrible idea, and that is what I hear when I read people's posts that this AP is just a cop drama, and is therefore propaganda for the police and should never be allowed to see the light of day.
I think there are a lot of people that need to be able to explore the complexities of trying to "protect and serve" and how impossible of a task it is to be a steward of justice when you have to be held accountable to a very diverse group of people, many of whom will have radically different definitions of justice in the first place. I personally have been and continue to be excited about the Agents of Edgewatch AP, because I have never seen Paizo attempt to explore this social situation, and I would much rather see a flawed attempt at it, then another AP about colonial territory expansion or stealing the history and wealth of past civilizations for the pursuit of pure personal power.
I am willing to bet that there are going to be at least one or maybe even more cringy-worthy encounters and descriptions within the writing of the first book. Things that probably would be changed if this AP were ever to be reprinted, and that Paizo needs to use internally as a metric for thinking about how serious they are to getting more diversity in their writing staff and editing staff. Maybe, APs need to be less of a single author contribution and more of a collective writing situation like TV shows, so that multiple voices can be present through the entire creation process, but that would definitely raise the costs of production significantly, and might need commitment in advance from patrons that they would still buy AP modules if they were x dollars more a month. But all of that is really getting side tracked into Paizo’s internal business planning that isn’t really necessary to try to arm chair theorize from the outside.
At the point that it has already gone to print, I would much rather see what is in the book for myself, offer critique back about ways in which it can be done better in the future, and be given the opportunity as a player (hopefully!) or as GM to make the necessary decisions and changes to the adventure itself and then share how we did that with my larger community of players on these forums, than for the company to just try to bury the problem and pretend like it never happened. I see this as a potential moment of real growth and I want Paizo to know that I intend to continue to support them financially, as long as they demonstrate a willingness to listen to people who feel like they have made mistakes and attempt to better in the future. I’d much rather see this AP get published and for there to be a commitment, like Sutter made, to push all proceeds from it to the NAACP Legal defense fund, than to pull the product and just attempt to avoid writing APs that push the authors to explore new and complicated material in their adventures.
I also strongly hope that the players guide acknowledges these short coming and encourages players and GMs to really give a lot of thought as to wether this AP is the right one for their table and what the potential consequences are for making light of police violence, even in our play, and especially for people considering “publishing” their play throughs in live-streaming, or podcast formats.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t spend much time on Reddit, but what I saw on here and Discords was varying amounts of “meh”, especially following Extinction Curse.
As for why you didn’t see people “strongly criticizing” it a year ago, we didn’t know much about then as we do now, which is not much more I’ll admit. But enough.
Hey, I've been hyped about the ap here and I've seen it hype in discords too :p
Though granted, I'm probably only one hyped up by "Oh cool, finally ap where gm can stop looking at me annoyed because I use non lethal damage all the time and try to take down all evil aligned creatures alive!"
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hey, I've been hyped about the ap here and I've seen it hype in discords too :p
Though granted, I'm probably only one hyped up by "Oh cool, finally ap where gm can stop looking at me annoyed because I use non lethal damage all the time and try to take down all evil aligned creatures alive!"
I assure you, my entire table is hyped for the same reason. They hated killing even the demons in wrath so I had to add in some redemption stuff for them so they could collect new friends and be nice to everyone.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t spend much time on Reddit, but what I saw on here and Discords was varying amounts of “meh”, especially following Extinction Curse.
I was pretty excited for the adventure path before the protests started. I prefer urban adventures and I've been wanting to play a follower of Abadar for a while, so it sounded interesting. The murder of George Floyd and everything that's followed makes my stomach turn at the thought of playing a fictional officer now, though.
As a side note, I have been following this thread and I really appreciate the thoughtful discussion. I hope we hear from Paizo soon.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
AoE is the first 2e adventure my whole RL group has been looking forward to since it was announced. My interest in circuses, megadungeons, and martial arts tournaments is less than nil, but everyone wants to play Columbo.
|
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
from james l. sutter's twitter accountCan we gloat now?About what?
In the worst case scenario this is a very unfortunate story that delivers bad or mixed messages regarding the police. That's not something to celebrate.
There’s a degree of “everyone told us our concerns were hyperbole and now we have word from one of the writers that they were pretty much on the money.” Am I happy about it? Of course not. But a good chunk of this discussion has been people saying we were wrong to worry at all and there’s a bitter kind of vindication in seeing this.
If we say there’s a problem, and the writer says there’s a problem, then maybe everyone else can also admit there might be a problem...
Sure, however the comment, "Can we gloat now?" Is extremely tone deaf from someone who stands on their soapbox quite often in regards these issues. Like they cared more about winning the argument, than the issues the argument was over. That's called performative allyship, and isn't a good look.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't sub to the Pathfinder 2e AP line because outside of Age of Ashes nothing in there has really scratched the specific itch I was looking for in terms of epic fantasy, so I don't really have a stake in this other than that hey who doesn't want to play The Watch from Discworld, but...
The person I really feel bad for is James L. Sutter, who's been subjected to an online Maoist struggle session all because he answered a writing prompt from Paizo. He seems like a really nice guy and has done a lot for Starfinder and Pathfinder 2e.
All over a 96-page splat of fictional work that absolutely NOBODY outside of the Paizo editor's office has read yet.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, however the comment, "Can we gloat now?" Is extremely tone deaf from someone who stands on their soapbox quite often in regards these issues. Like they cared more about winning the argument, than the issues the argument was over. That's called performative allyship, and isn't a good look.from james l. sutter's twitter accountCan we gloat now?About what?
In the worst case scenario this is a very unfortunate story that delivers bad or mixed messages regarding the police. That's not something to celebrate.
There’s a degree of “everyone told us our concerns were hyperbole and now we have word from one of the writers that they were pretty much on the money.” Am I happy about it? Of course not. But a good chunk of this discussion has been people saying we were wrong to worry at all and there’s a bitter kind of vindication in seeing this.
If we say there’s a problem, and the writer says there’s a problem, then maybe everyone else can also admit there might be a problem...
I don't disagree. I hope you can understand where the frustration that motivates that sentiment comes from, even if it isn't a helpful one.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There’s some folks trying to guess at my reasoning for titling the thread the way I did. Let me clarify:
Is now a good time for Agents of Edgewatch?
Gestures broadly at the recent global protests against police brutality
Is Ever?
These protests brought attention the world over to deeply endemic issues in society, issues that either people were ignorant of, knew but thought were minor enough to ignore, or even felt powerless to speak up against.
One of the issues is the topic of Copaganda, where television, books and art depict even corrupt cops as possessing underlying heroism. Let’s take my favorite current “good cop” show, Brooklyn 99. Even those cops, with issues highlighting race problems and possessing above average human decency and empathy do bad, outright illegal things.
There is an episode in Season 1,
The episode of course finds evidence the suspect was accessory to the crime. But the fact is that person would have legal grounds to sue the NYPD, for illegally holding him. He was basically kidnapped while the NYPD went looking for cause post-kidnapping. It’s all played for laughs.
I am no longer comfortable watching shows about police, because entertainment is meant to be an empathy device, and I no longer trust the authorities to act legally, let alone morally.
I and many others are uncomfortable with an interactive game, where cops can act like Player Characters in a tactical combat RPG like Pathfinder. Being complicit in creating the kinds of stories that allow society to become complacent enough to cheer on cops no matter what they do.
There are more than enough people in the world willing to brush aside police violence with: “they shouldn’t have run”, “they must have been guilty of something” (Hint: Cops aren’t supposed to kill guilty people either, that’s literally why we have courts, and prisons ((Don’t get me started on prison abolition)))
There is a culture that exists where people genuinely believe: “if a cop did it, then it must be the right thing to have done”
When cops get the same leeway as fantasy adventurers they aren’t there to police with the consent of the people, they aren’t there for the right reasons.
So that’s why “is ever?” Was a part of the title of the thread.
Don’t guess at my motivations, my PMs are open, next time just ask.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, here's the thing-
Paizo, if they wanted to, could write an AP where the PCs are a band of depraved Urgathoans who roam the countryside eating people and spreading disease. People for whom that doesn't sound very fun (*raises hand*) can just choose to skip that one.
However, in society there is not an ongoing problem with roving bands of cannibal murderers that we stand to exacerbate with our depictions of such in fiction.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know, right now the depraved hedonists roaming the land sowing plague sounds pretty on point.
|
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
"in a tactical combat RPG like Pathfinder"
There's more to Pathfinder than just combat, and not every player just wants to kill stuff and take loot.
The majority of the rules are geared toward combat, the majority of the rewards are for combat, the majority of the encounters are combat, the majority of the abilities relate to combat.
Pathfinder can do a lot of things, but when it does things outside of combat it gets... clunky.
You can play Pathfinder and never “role play” once and still have successfully played Pathfinder. There are games where that isn’t true, there are roleplaying games where tactical combat isn’t even a thing.
It’s a tactical combat RPG, it’s what it’s designed to do best, thats not a criticism! I like tactical combat. I like the opportunities Fantasy violence provides in systematically creating moments of conflict, tension and drama. There’s nothing wrong with recognising what a game is designed to do, and recognising that it comes with limitations.
Not every story, not every genre needs to be represented by one game. It’s ludicrous to expect that.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not every story, not every genre needs to be represented by one game. It’s ludicrous to expect that."in a tactical combat RPG like Pathfinder"
There's more to Pathfinder than just combat, and not every player just wants to kill stuff and take loot.
True, but the developers are allowed to try. I mean, Pathfinder wasn't (and in my humble opinion, even with Horror Adventures, still isn't) geared towards horror either, and they did two APs for that.
Pathfinder (1E or 2E) has more than enough tools to do a good police procedural AP. Just because your opinion is that it doesn't does not make this true.
If Pathfinder never tried to go beyond tactical combat you wouldn't have had Kingmaker, or Hell's Rebels, or War for the Crown. It can do much more than combat and the developers should push the envelope with their own system.
Plus we've had investigation modules before. The idea is nothing new. The only new thing is being members of the law, rather than subcontractors.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you look at it one way, its almost weirdly fitting to put what amounts to moral prompt of group story telling in a table top rpg system with in depth rules for violent conflict. Cops in real life are given all the tools to to solve problems with a stick instead of a carrot. If put in a situation where the onus of peaceful and not always easy burden of conflict resolution is completely on you as a player to pursue through your characters choices, but at your fingertips are tools to solve the problem through force, what do you do?
Neither arguing for or against here, just something that occurred to me reading posts in this thread.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The majority of the rules are geared toward combat, the majority of the rewards are for combat, the majority of the encounters are combat, the majority of the abilities relate to combat."in a tactical combat RPG like Pathfinder"
There's more to Pathfinder than just combat, and not every player just wants to kill stuff and take loot.
That isn't completely true though.
Is a lot of stuff combat based? Yes.
But you have plenty of rules dealing with things that aren't combat, from skills to spells to items and feats.
You progress through the game by overcoming challenges, not by killing things.
Killing things is just oneway to overcome something. You knock them out, you can talk them down, you can go around.
You can be diplomatic and empathic in Pathfinder, you're not required to be a murder machine. Saying you can't do that in Pathfinder but you totally can in this other game just isn't jelling. Especially if it's just a question of roleplay and not whatever social game mechanics whatever said other game might have.
A GM or player going from one game to the other isn't going to be a completely different person.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The majority of the rules are geared toward combat, the majority of the rewards are for combat, the majority of the encounters are combat, the majority of the abilities relate to combat."in a tactical combat RPG like Pathfinder"
There's more to Pathfinder than just combat, and not every player just wants to kill stuff and take loot.
That isn't completely true though.
Is a lot of stuff combat based? Yes.
But you have plenty of rules dealing with things that aren't combat, from skills to spells to items and feats.
You progress through the game by overcoming challenges, not by killing things.
Killing things is just oneway to overcome something. You knock them out, you can talk them down, you can go around.
You can be diplomatic and empathic in Pathfinder, you're not required to be a murder machine. Saying you can't do that in Pathfinder but you totally can in this other game just isn't jelling. Especially if it's just a question of roleplay and not whatever social game mechanics whatever said other game might have.
A GM or player going from one game to the other isn't going to be a completely different person.
The bulk of class options are geared towards what you do in the tactical combats that are assumed to be a major part of play. It's a valid criticism to offer; Pathfinder (and indeed, D&D from 3e onwards as well) has one set of rules for violence and one set of rules for doing everything else, and those are treated as equivalent halves.
You can see why it's not a fantastic model for good policing.
|
|
The majority of the rules are geared toward combat, the majority of the rewards are for combat, the majority of the encounters are combat, the majority of the abilities relate to combat."in a tactical combat RPG like Pathfinder"
There's more to Pathfinder than just combat, and not every player just wants to kill stuff and take loot.
That isn't completely true though.
Is a lot of stuff combat based? Yes.
But you have plenty of rules dealing with things that aren't combat, from skills to spells to items and feats.
You progress through the game by overcoming challenges, not by killing things.
Killing things is just oneway to overcome something. You knock them out, you can talk them down, you can go around.
You can be diplomatic and empathic in Pathfinder, you're not required to be a murder machine. Saying you can't do that in Pathfinder but you totally can in this other game just isn't jelling. Especially if it's just a question of roleplay and not whatever social game mechanics whatever said other game might have.
A GM or player going from one game to the other isn't going to be a completely different person.
The bulk of class options are geared towards what you do in the tactical combats that are assumed to be a major part of play. It's a valid criticism to offer; Pathfinder (and indeed, D&D from 3e onwards as well) has one set of rules for violence and one set of rules for doing everything else, and those are treated as equivalent halves.
You can see why it's not a fantastic model for good policing.
*nods*
But they are equal, a Class is just a set of abilities the character has, they are not the entirety of the character.
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
There’s some folks trying to guess at my reasoning for titling the thread the way I did. Let me clarify:
Is now a good time for Agents of Edgewatch?Gestures broadly at the recent global protests against police brutality
Is Ever?These protests brought attention the world over to deeply endemic issues in society, issues that either people were ignorant of, knew but thought were minor enough to ignore, or even felt powerless to speak up against.
One of the issues is the topic of Copaganda, where television, books and art depict even corrupt cops as possessing underlying heroism. Let’s take my favorite current “good cop” show, Brooklyn 99. Even those cops, with issues highlighting race problems and possessing above average human decency and empathy do bad, outright illegal things.
There is an episode in Season 1, ** spoiler omitted **
I am no longer comfortable watching shows about police, because entertainment is meant to be an empathy device, and I no longer trust the authorities to act legally, let alone morally.
I and many others are uncomfortable with an interactive game, where cops can act like Player Characters in a tactical combat RPG like Pathfinder. Being complicit in creating the kinds of stories that allow society to become complacent enough to cheer on cops no matter what they do.
There are more than enough people in the world willing to...
The very vast majority of people, maybe even the entirety of people I heard using the kind of pro-police violence arguments you mention do not even know what RPGs are. And they are the kind of heavily prejudiced people who put RPGs as the reason for violence, suicide, murder sprees and so on.
I do not even think they got their positive views of police violence from TV shows or movies, but from the culture they belong to. Likely they blame most cops in TV shows for not being hard enough with the bad guys.
I agree that writers should be mindful of the impact of what they write. And I discovered a huge lot of eye-opening concepts from Paizo throughout the years and from the posters on this thread.
I think it is unfair to blame Paizo and the writers for not anticipating the current events months and even years before they happened.
And I think it very counterproductive to aim against Paizo. Because they are allies of inclusiveness and respect for all.
And the gloating only serves to alienate would-be allies, so also counter-productive.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is there also not a bit of a false equivalency going on in this discussion as well?
Medieval/Early Modern City Watch ≠ Modern Day United States Police Force
Sure it is a close parallel and there is a lot of similar terms being used
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is there also not a bit of a false equivalency going on in this discussion as well?
Medieval/Early Modern City Watch ≠ Modern Day United States Police Force
Sure it is a close parallel and there is a lot of similar terms being used
Agreed. The concept that this is the "cop AP" pretty much originated in this thread. I think it is maybe a bit of disingenuous framing.
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is the Edgewatch the same as the US police force? Hopefully the f&@* not.
But it is written in the US currently by US writers and the majority of players will be from the US.
Also Golarion isn’t medieval.
Non-sequitur, but this makes me realize I would have adored an investigator/detective agency AP.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t want to see the company I pay money to, participate, propagate and exacerbate a cultural problem that has contributed to the very issues I’m seeing in society.
Form your own company and publish what you want.
As to us "guessing" at your motivations, you did post on a public forum and tbh, I have no intentions of PMing you about this.
That said, you have to realize that not everyone will not share your views or tastes in the game, and some of them might even respond here.
Forgive me if I'm not spelling things correctly but I left my reading glasses in my mancave and I'm on my phone.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The reason people see it as "CSI Absalom" is because it was presented as such at Paizocon 2019.
Once the audience looking at it expanded beyond "the sort of person invested enough in paizo to watch streamed panel discussions from PaizoCon" to a more general audience the reactions honestly shifted to "Cop AP" not just due to current events but due to the mission blurbs themselves. You're not playing CSI, you're playing Lethal Weapon.
Which makes sense because Pathfinder is a game about violent conflict resolution OF COURSE it was going to go the Lethal Weapon route.
The skills system is simply not robust enough to handle doing otherwise as anything other than a novelty, nor are the other aids the system has for presenting non combat scenes.
|
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
The skills system is simply not robust enough to handle doing otherwise as anything other than a novelty, nor are the other aids the system has for presenting non combat scenes.
I strongly disagree with this. There's clearly gonna be some combat in AoE, but actually we know very little about how much, and with the various Victory Point activities in the GMG there's plenty of rules to cover social and investigative stuff as well.
It could also be all combat all the time, but I wouldn't say the system requires it.