Am I missing something? It seems really overpowered since you can use the spell duplicating function to duplicate spells that DO have expensive components.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Considering you are using a 10th level spell to duplicate the effects of a lower level spell, I don't think it's particularly broken. At that point you are 19th level and you could be casting time stop or cataclysm with that slot.
Saving a few hundred gold casting a free raise dead that only works on people lower level than you isn't exactly the height of your power, imo.
If anything, I'd be more worried about Wish allowing you to duplicate the effects of 10-minute-cast spells as a 3-action activity.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It actually says
Duplicate any arcane spell of 9th level or lower.
Duplicate any non-arcane spell of 7th level or lower.
As it says to duplicate the Spell and not the effect of the Spell, it would be a perfectly valid reading to say that it also duplicates the costs and casting time. Essentially it's just giving you the ability to cast all Spells 7th level or lower (9th if Arcane).
I'm not saying that's my interpretation, but it's a valid one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If it were intended to duplicate the casting time, it wouldn't have its own casting time - it would list something like "varies".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If it were intended to duplicate the casting time, it wouldn't have its own casting time - it would list something like "varies".
I'm saying it's possible that it takes 3 Actions to cast Wish, and then you cast whatever Spell you are Duplicating, so the 3 Action Casting time for Wish itself is still accurate.
I find that unlikely, but possible.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, I see.
Yeah, I find that highly implausible. I don't think the intent is for Wish to be basically useless in combat.
It actually saysDuplicate any arcane spell of 9th level or lower.
Duplicate any non-arcane spell of 7th level or lower.As it says to duplicate the Spell and not the effect of the Spell, it would be a perfectly valid reading to say that it also duplicates the costs and casting time. Essentially it's just giving you the ability to cast all Spells 7th level or lower (9th if Arcane).
I'm not saying that's my interpretation, but it's a valid one.
I disagree.
Wish has its own cast time and cost, and one of its effect is duplicating another spell. There's nothing in the description that says you still pay for additional costs of the spell you're replicating, as you would see in The Wish Spell from PF1.
Yes, PF2 isn't PF1, but I will say that if the intent of the Wish spell was to still provide expensive components and such for spells that require it, it would specify so.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with Wish/Limited Wish in PF1 was no save Geas and permanent ability score improvements. That's the sort of thing that was necessarily gated by the cost (and was a total fail on the Geas front given the modest cost and that some monsters had Limited Wish as a SLA), but as we saw with Miracle in PF1, spell duplication wasn't seen to have the same problems.
Those PF1 problems are gone, so the cost is gone.
Speaking of Wish and its equivalents, what is the spell level of the effect duplicated? I originally assume it as 10 per the slot consumed (as in 5E), but remembered that a Raise Dead in 6th and 7th level are treated as different spells for the purpose of non-preparing casters learning said spells.
So, 9 for the same tradition and 7 for others effectively, yet only treated as 10 for being counteracted?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking of Wish and its equivalents, what is the spell level of the effect duplicated? I originally assume it as 10 per the slot consumed (as in 5E), but remembered that a Raise Dead in 6th and 7th level are treated as different spells for the purpose of non-preparing casters learning said spells.
So, 9 for the same tradition and 7 for others effectively, yet only treated as 10 for being counteracted?
Those are spontaneous slot rules, which are different compared to prepared slots. A prepared caster only needs to have a given spell in their spellbook to be able to prepare it at any level they can cast the spell. If I find a 7th level Fireball scroll and, for some dumb reason, don't have Fireball in my spellbook, scribing it into my spellbook lets me prepare it at any level (from its minimum spell level) at any time, meaning it is only ever one spell. Spontaneous Heightening is implemented so that spontaneous spellcasters aren't stupidly overpowered and don't always specifically decide to take spells that only heighten, you otherwise still treat a consumable of a spell as just that spell. This is also supported when specific spells counteract other spells, the spell level doesn't matter when it comes to whether a spell is eligible to counteract or not, it only matters to determine how well it can counteract.
No, it would be a 10th level spell for all intents and purposes, because it doesn't say things like "It only counts as X level for Y purpose" in the description. Yes, it says "duplicate the spell," but even in PF1, if I casted a very nasty debuff I didn't have prepared with a Wish spell, it still counts as the Wish spell's level for the purposes of dispelling and saving against. Same concept here: If I cast a spell that creates an existing effect and an enemy wants to counteract it, it counts as a 10th level spell for that purpose. If there are effects which scale based off of my spell's level (as it does in both editions), then I should be able to benefit from those entirely.
Being able to recreate any lower level spell as a 10th level slot is well within Wish, Miracle, et. al.'s power. The factor that it doesn't cost anything to cast is irrelevant. You're talking the most powerful of magic that any character could ever hope to acquire, and can only be cast 2-3 times per day at the most. It should definitely be strong enough to completely change the tide(s) of battle to the point that simply dying won't be enough. But even then, spells like Raise Dead have significant drawbacks to players targeted by it, meaning the Ritual route (which Wish, Miracle, et. al. cannot replicate) is still the best way to go if you want to get right back to the adventure.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is there an issue with miracle letting you cast 9th level raise dead for free, in three actions? That's the only example that really seems problematic to me. 9th level raise dead has a level cap of 19 so it's the same class level as when you first get miracle, and it saves you 30,400gp, a sizable amount even at that level. Plus it means you can bring someone back in combat.
It's still an out of combat thing, given the drawbacks. It just doesn't require you sinking a bunch of gold and wasting exponential time to do it, which depending on the situation, is probably more beneficial.
If the spell is successful, the creature returns to life with 1 Hit Point, no spells prepared or spell slots available, no points in any pools or any other daily resources, and still with any long-term debilitations of the old body. The time spent in the Boneyard leaves the target temporarily debilitated, making it clumsy 2, drained 2, and enfeebled 2 for 1 week; these conditions can't be removed or reduced by any means until the week has passed. The creature is also permanently changed by its time in the afterlife, such as a slight personality shift, a streak of white in the hair, or a strange new birthmark.
If I revived any prepared spellcaster in combat, they will be useless, because as everyone knows, a spellcaster without spells is a liability. Spontaneous spellcasters are less prone to this, since they don't lose their cantrips (as they aren't prepared and don't have slots to them), but Prepared spellcasters still do, as they have to prepare them.
Similarly, if I revive any martial in combat, they will be very weak and most likely unable to properly affect combat.
Also, these spells don't work on people who die via Death effects, and a gust of wind could murder any of these characters, which defeats the entire purpose of a raise dead spell bringing them back in the first place.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, it would be a 10th level spell for all intents and purposes, because it doesn't say things like "It only counts as X level for Y purpose" in the description. Yes, it says "duplicate the spell," but even in PF1, if I casted a very nasty debuff I didn't have prepared with a Wish spell, it still counts as the Wish spell's level for the purposes of dispelling and saving against. Same concept here: If I cast a spell that creates an existing effect and an enemy wants to counteract it, it counts as a 10th level spell for that purpose. If there are effects which scale based off of my spell's level (as it does in both editions), then I should be able to benefit from those...The spell says "duplicate any [tradition] spell of 9th level or lower." 10th level raise dead (or any other spell heightened to 10th level) is a 10th level spell. Wish in PF1E had explicit language providing that a duplicated spell was a 9th level spell for purposes of save DC; there is no language like that in the 2E version.
But if you're right, that makes it even clearer that there's a problem here. Currently, 10th level raise dead has a very hefty material component requirement: to raise a 20th level character, you need 64,000 gp. But this material component requirement, on this interpretation of the rules, would be totally superfluous. Anyone with a tenth level slot (even a wizard!) could just cast 10th level raise dead with wish/miracle/etc. in three actions, expending no gp. That can't be RAI.
Okay, let's put it this way: If I cast Wish to replicate a Wall of Fire at the highest level I can, would the spell count as 9th level or 10th level for the purposes of counteracting?
If it's the former, then it defeats the purpose of Wish being a 10th level spell when there are other better ways to replicate it (such as Drain Focus, Wizard Theory choices, Spontaneous Heightening, etc). Yes, I could use it to replicate non-traditional spells, but if they are 7th level, by the time I'm facing enemies that require me to cast 10th level spells, it's going to be useless. If it's the latter, then why wouldn't the entirety of the spell (such as with the Heightened lines of each spell) scale to its new level when there is no text saying that it doesn't do that?
Higher level spells are meant to be generally better than their lower level counterparts, even when they are of the same level, and this is no different. Against most monsters, a 5th level Cone of Cold will be more damaging than a 5th level Fireball. 12D6>10D6, no argument, no contest. You might say things like "But you might hit allies or structures in the back with Cone of Cold," or "The enemy has a major weakness to Fire, or is immune to Cold damage!" To which I would argue is the parity between the two spells. Cone of Cold has a bigger and more unwieldy area of effect, requires getting in close (or closer compared to Fireball anyway), and is of a different element than Fireball. But it is objectively stronger in a lot of situations, and for good reason.
Plus, as I've stated, you're dealing with the most powerful of spells here. It should be capable of the strongest feats imaginable. It's no different comparing Cat Fall from a Master Acrobat to a Legendary Acrobat. Or a Legendary Survivalist to a Master Survivalist. They are capable of crazy things that can't be replicated in any other way. They should have that spotlight and capability, because they were designed to. On top of that, it's not like 10th level slots grow on trees. They are the most scarce, and outside of shenanigans (such as spell school benefits, drain focus, 20th level feat, etc.), it can't just be cast willy-nilly. You are getting one, and only one, of those spells, per day. It should be worth that kind of power, because it's not going to be replicated outside of Deus Ex Machina from deities.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
My read on Wish is that the spell would have the effects of the level you chose to duplicate it at (so if you choose to use Wish to duplicate a 9th level Fireball, it does the damage of a 9th level Fireball). But you are still casting Wish, not that other spell, so if someone wants to counteract it, they need to counteract Wish, not 9th level Fireball.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Spells are the level you cast them at, full stop.
Wish (or whatever) doesn't heighten the spell you cast to 10th because you "pay" spell levels for the variable effects. So if you cast, for example, fireball via wish as a wizard you cast it as a 3rd- to 9th-level spell, not a 10th-level spell.
Because you've duplicated fireball "of 9th level or lower", not fireball "as a 10th level spell."
I agree with this, and it's how the Wizard's Infinite Possibilities feat, which is essentially PF1 Limited Wish at a selectable level, works.
My read on Wish is that the spell would have the effects of the level you chose to duplicate it at (so if you choose to use Wish to duplicate a 9th level Fireball, it does the damage of a 9th level Fireball). But you are still casting Wish, not that other spell, so if someone wants to counteract it, they need to counteract Wish, not 9th level Fireball.
Right. You don't even have to wish for a 9th level fireball. A naive farmer who has an item that grants wishes says "I wish for that cluster of enemies to be burned alive" and the most likely outcome of the wish is that it creates the mechanical effects of a 9th level fireball on those enemies. (Or a meteor swarm, maybe.) It doesn't cast the lower level spell, it emulates similar effects by rewriting reality.
No, it would be a 10th level spell for all intents and purposes, because it doesn't say things like "It only counts as X level for Y purpose" in the description. Yes, it says "duplicate the spell," but even in PF1, if I casted a very nasty debuff I didn't have prepared with a Wish spell, it still counts as the Wish spell's level for the purposes of dispelling and saving against. Same concept here: If I cast a spell that creates an existing effect and an enemy wants to counteract it, it counts as a 10th level spell for that purpose. If there are effects which scale based off of my spell's level (as it does in both editions), then I should be able to benefit from those entirely.
Spells are the level you cast them at, full stop.
Wish (or whatever) doesn't heighten the spell you cast to 10th because you "pay" spell levels for the variable effects. So if you cast, for example, fireball via wish as a wizard you cast it as a 3rd- to 9th-level spell, not a 10th-level spell.
Because you've duplicated fireball "of 9th level or lower", not fireball "as a 10th level spell."
This ambiguity in rules was why asked my initial question in the first place. However, as the latter interpretation seems like a worse deal for the player, I suppose that's what the devs intended...
My read on Wish is that the spell would have the effects of the level you chose to duplicate it at (so if you choose to use Wish to duplicate a 9th level Fireball, it does the damage of a 9th level Fireball). But you are still casting Wish, not that other spell, so if someone wants to counteract it, they need to counteract Wish, not 9th level Fireball.
Though this one seems like a better compromise. Now I really need official answers and possible errata material for this situation...!
----
But even then, spells like Raise Dead have significant drawbacks to players targeted by it, meaning the Ritual route (which Wish, Miracle, et. al. cannot replicate) is still the best way to go if you want to get right back to the adventure.
Huh, was there any rules that Wish and its siblings cannot copy ritual effects? As a reminder rituals are spells themselves too, so...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, let's put it this way: If I cast Wish to replicate a Wall of Fire at the highest level I can, would the spell count as 9th level or 10th level for the purposes of counteracting?9th.
If it's the former, then it defeats the purpose of Wish being a 10th level spell when there are other better ways to replicate it (such as Drain Focus, Wizard Theory choices, Spontaneous Heightening, etc). Yes, I could use it to replicate non-traditional spells, but if they are 7th...You don't use wish to replicate a 9th level spell you know you're going to need. You use wish because it is the ultimate versatile spell: you can duplicate ANY arcane spell in the game of up to 9th level. Even if you haven't prepared it. Even if you don't know it. That you get to pick on the fly when you cast. That's a tremendously useful ability. The fact that you can't cast above 9th level is the balancing limitation, which is broken under PF2E assumptions if you can cast 10th level heightened spells with it. (Unlike in PF1E, where heightening was mostly a waste, it's pretty common for heightened spells to be competitive with other spells at their heightened level, especially if you're only heightening one or two levels.)
Higher level spells are meant to be generally better than their lower level counterparts, even when they are of the same level, and this is no different. Against most monsters, a 5th level Cone of Cold will be more damaging than a 5th level Fireball. 12D6>10D6, no argument, no contest. You might say things like "But you might hit allies or structures in the back with Cone of Cold," or "The enemy has a major weakness to Fire, or is immune to Cold damage!" To which I would argue is the parity between the two spells. Cone of Cold has a bigger and more unwieldy area of effect, requires getting in close (or closer compared to Fireball anyway), and is of a different element than Fireball. But it is objectively stronger in a lot of situations, and...
So then you're not actually casting a 10th level spell, which means Wish is broken on that front too. Why is Wish a 10th level spell when it's never actually considered to be a 10th level spell? Should be 9th level like it was in PF1 if we're using this argument.
"The Ultimate Flex Slot" spell is basically using your strongest spells as copouts because you can't prepare your lower level spells appropriately. Time Stop, Gate, et. al. are much better spells by comparison, and last I checked "The Ultimate Flex Slot" is basically a Wizard theory you can choose by first level, or a feat you can choose later. By the time you have access to Wish, it becomes pointless because all it's good for is automatic counteracting (unless you crit-fail like a scrub, since checks are still required), because by this point you should already know what to expect to face and plan your spells accordingly. And quite frankly, Clerics will be better equipped for this since they have access to spells which don't require them to waste Miracles to do.
And a Cleric can cast 7 or more (even if a good majority of them are Heal/Harm, that stuff still heals/harms quite a bit at the given level), I don't see how numbers mean much when, as I've stated above, Wish spells are copouts. In fact, the Font spells granted by Clerics are much more valuable considering how universally useful they are at all levels of play.
The only restrictions Wish bypasses in this case is time required and cost. And plus, resurrection, raise dead, and other "bring back to life" effects are so bad in this game that it's just not worth the cost and hassle.
@Lucas Yew: Rituals aren't spells. They're Rituals and are considered their own category. The proof is that you aren't required to cast spells to utilize them, and nothing in their description states they are a type of spell (like Focus Spells do).
@Temperans: While this is technically true, most every focus spell has the Uncommon trait, which requires access to use, which most every spellcaster utilizing traits cannot do. Plus, a lot of Focus spells don't scale, so it's a very poor use of a Wish spell.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
So then you're not actually casting a 10th level spell, which means Wish is broken on that front too. Why is Wish a 10th level spell when it's never actually considered to be a 10th level spell? Should be 9th level like it was in PF1 if we're using this argument.
There's nothing 'broken' about it, though.
Like, it's really straight forward. It's a 10th level spell that lets you duplicate the effects of certain other lower level spells. If you're duplicating a 9th level spell, the effect is... uh, that of a 9th level spell. Because that's what you're duplicating.
You keep acting like there's some fundamentally broken mechanic here, but there isn't. You just do what the spell says you do.
And yes, Time Stop is a stronger spell if the thing you want to do is stop time. On the other hand, Wish gives you on-demand access to the majority of the spells in the game when you use it.
That seems perfectly Working As Intended here. Not sure what all the melodrama is for.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So its new optimal usage is either a general panic button for unprepared situations or the emulation of another tradition's exclusive 7th spell level effect (and gets swatted like a fly if a basic 8th level Antimagic Field is set up)? That's quite disappointingly fragile for a supposed 10th level spell...
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
(and gets swatted like a fly if a basic 8th level Antimagic Field is set up?)
I’m not convinced that the only Rare spell in the CRB gets to be called “basic”.
So its new optimal usage is either a general panic button for unprepared situations or the emulation of another tradition's exclusive 7th spell level effect (and gets swatted like a fly if a basic 8th level Antimagic Field is set up)? That's quite disappointingly fragile for a supposed 10th level spell...
Yes, very disappointing when you use three actions to teleport out your entire party (and corpses) out of an impending TPK. Short of Gate, it's the only way to do it, plus so many other things it can do.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So its new optimal usage is either a general panic button for unprepared situations or the emulation of another tradition's exclusive 7th spell level effect (and gets swatted like a fly if a basic 8th level Antimagic Field is set up)? That's quite disappointingly fragile for a supposed 10th level spell...
Disappointing? A 10th level spell that's any on-list 9th level spell as needed is great. Sure, if I'm playing a Wizard with a feat and a class feature choice dedicated to flexibility, I'd pick something else. But why wouldn't I prep "whatever Primal 9th level spell I need" over transforming the party into mammoths or turning into a kaiju most days? Or grab Wish as one of my two arcane Sorcerer 10th spells known to cover whatever I'm missing?