I'm a little confused on why this feat allows someone with a two handed weapon to use trip, but by the wording, someone with a sword and shield would not. It doesn't appear to be game breaking to allow this. What am I missing?
In my last game, I did allow it to see what would happen. He used it on several low moderate opponents and his actions were typically, Move, and two actions for Knock Down. Or if he was already close, he would Knock Down and then have Strike for his final action. He normally got an AoO when they stood up. He obviously did not have his shield raised so it provided no AC benefit.
This did seem really strong, though it was against moderate Medium sized enemies, with low Reflex DCs.
With that said, is a Reflex DC really just the creature's reflex save +10?
From looking at the feat it seems like more of a style thing.
Unlike most other classes, the fighter has no discrete "sub-class" they choose at level one. Instead, many of their feats are tied into certain forms of weaponry, and by focusing on those feat groups you are choosing a fighting style.
In order to keep these fighting styles unique and coherent, many of them have certain themes and patterns to bind them together.
For instance, because of it's limitations Knockdown is in both the "Free-Hand Fighter" group and the "Two-Handed Weapon" group. Free-hand weapon feats often deal with combat maneuvers, while two-handed weapon feats often focus on pushing your opponent around. Knockdown fits both of these themes pretty well, so they align it with those weapon groups.
On the other hand, shield feats are essentially all defensive in nature, focusing on the shield. Knockdown would be a bit out of left field compared to those.
Long story short, Knockdown fits the themes of the free-hand and two-handed weapon styles, it doesn't fit the themes of the shield-user fighting style.
Perhaps with more books and more feats released we'll get some more branching out of the styles, maybe a set of shield-shove/shield-bash feats, but for now we're pretty much just working with the Core Rulebook so things are limited.
If your Weapon has the Trip Trait, you could use the Feat while Wielding that Weapon and a Shield.
The reason it can work with a 2 Handed Weapon is that a 2 Handed Weapon can be Held in 1 Hand, and Releasing 1 Hand off is a Free Action, so the Feat is basically just allowing you to regrip your Weapon as a Free Action.
Detaching a Shield is not a Free Action, and you can't just drop your Grip from it, so the Feat would have to allow you to Detach your Shield, Drop it on the Ground, and then Pick it Up, and Reattach it, all for Free, and in the same amount of time as simply Releasing and Regripping your Weapon.
A Buckler counts as a Free Hand, so you could use the Feat with a Buckler too.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Trip Trait works fine w/ Knockdown.
The feat lets you make a Strike then a Trip (using the same MAP), then gives an extra for people w/ two-handed weapons so they can participate too.
Can you Strike? Yes. Can you Trip? Yes, due to the Trip Trait.
So it works fine (or even better since you can do it w/ Reach so that after medium/non-reach enemies stand up they still have to move to you, though at the cost of course of a lower damage weapon.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
From looking at the feat it seems like more of a style thing.
Unlike most other classes, the fighter has no discrete "sub-class" they choose at level one. Instead, many of their feats are tied into certain forms of weaponry, and by focusing on those feat groups you are choosing a fighting style.
In order to keep these fighting styles unique and coherent, many of them have certain themes and patterns to bind them together.
For instance, because of it's limitations Knockdown is in both the "Free-Hand Fighter" group and the "Two-Handed Weapon" group. Free-hand weapon feats often deal with combat maneuvers, while two-handed weapon feats often focus on pushing your opponent around. Knockdown fits both of these themes pretty well, so they align it with those weapon groups.
On the other hand, shield feats are essentially all defensive in nature, focusing on the shield. Knockdown would be a bit out of left field compared to those.
Long story short, Knockdown fits the themes of the free-hand and two-handed weapon styles, it doesn't fit the themes of the shield-user fighting style.
Perhaps with more books and more feats released we'll get some more branching out of the styles, maybe a set of shield-shove/shield-bash feats, but for now we're pretty much just working with the Core Rulebook so things are limited.
Adding to this, two handed weapons are in a tricky position because they already do the best damage in the game. This is especially true for reach fighters who can maximize their AoOs. Other weapon styles need feats just to catch up with them, like Double Slice or Twin Takedown. So what do you do for two handed weapon feats?
For most classes, the answer is nothing. Pretty much no other class has feats specific to two handed weapons. But the fighter is entirely themed around your weapon choice. You can't just not have two handed feats for the fighter, because then what do you have at all? (Besides +2 to hit and the best damage in the game. But that isn't thematic.)
The solution employed was feats for non-damage boosting riders, like knocking enemies prone. So by passing those feats onto one handed weapons, you do erode that niche. Whether that is bad or not, I leave up to you.
Sorry to Necro this thread, but I've been trying to find more information about a shield & whip fighter. Is there official guidance that you can use knockdown with a shield and whip due to the trip trait on the whip?
Yes the rules are clear, no you can't do it.
What you want to do is look at Aggressive Block and related feats. It's not Trip or Knockdown, But its still flatfooted so its probably good enough.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry to Necro this thread, but I've been trying to find more information about a shield & whip fighter. Is there official guidance that you can use knockdown with a shield and whip due to the trip trait on the whip?
Yes the rules are clear, no you can't do it.
What you want to do is look at Aggressive Block and related feats. It's not Trip or Knockdown, But its still flatfooted so its probably good enough.
Could you explain your reasoning, please? If we look at Knockdown, I can't see anything to support your conclusion.
You make an attack to knock a foe off balance, then follow up immediately with a sweep to topple them. Make a melee Strike. If it hits and deals damage, you can attempt an Athletics check to Trip the creature you hit. If you're wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you can ignore Trip's requirement that you have a hand free. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn't increase until after you've made both of them.
There's no requirement line saying that you must be wielding a 2-handed weapon to use Knockdown. The only part of the feat that requires that is what I've bolded. If you already don't have a problem with Trip's requirement (because you're wielding a Trip weapon, because you actually have a free hand, because you have a Shield Augmentation giving your shield the Trip trait, or however else), you don't need that sentence, so not meeting the requirement in it is irrelevant.
What is correct is that no Official Guidance is needed, because the feat already contains no reason to think that it wouldn't work.
Yeah, the feat works fine if you have a hand free, if you're wielding a trip weapon, or if you're wielding a two-handed weapon.
It's only characters that wield a one-handed weapon that doesn't have the trip property and hold something else in their offhand that run into trouble here.
Could you explain your reasoning, please?
Just me getting confused. Its fine.
You could also just add a Trip Augmentation to your shield for 8sp.
That will let you switch hit between a double-slice (shield boss and sword), trip + strike, or trip + double-slice any time you like.
Sadly, RAW, you cannot add a Trip Augmentation and have a Shield Boss...
There are numerous methods to modify shields—snarling rods to catch weapons, bladed edges, padding for nonlethal strikes, and so on—but all share basic functionality. A shield augmentation can be etched with weapon runes, much like a shield boss or shield spikes, but doesn't otherwise alter your shield's statistics. A shield bearing an augmentation can't be combined with an attached weapon, like shield spikes . . .
(Emphasis added.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You could also just add a Trip Augmentation to your shield for 8sp.
That will let you switch hit between a double-slice (shield boss and sword), trip + strike, or trip + double-slice any time you like.
Sadly, RAW, you cannot add a Trip Augmentation and have a Shield Boss...
There are numerous methods to modify shields—snarling rods to catch weapons, bladed edges, padding for nonlethal strikes, and so on—but all share basic functionality. A shield augmentation can be etched with weapon runes, much like a shield boss or shield spikes, but doesn't otherwise alter your shield's statistics. A shield bearing an augmentation can't be combined with an attached weapon, like shield spikes . . .(Emphasis added.)
But the good news is, shield augmentations can have weapon runes etched on them, so you can still effectively use the Shield's Shield Bash attack in conjunction with Double-Slice tactics. You're losing out on 1d6 damage VS SB's 1d4, but it's still plenty viable.
But the good news is, shield augmentations can have weapon runes etched on them, so you can still effectively use the Shield's Shield Bash attack in conjunction with Double-Slice tactics. You're losing out on 1d6 damage VS SB's 1d4, but it's still plenty viable.You could also just add a Trip Augmentation to your shield for 8sp.
That will let you switch hit between a double-slice (shield boss and sword), trip + strike, or trip + double-slice any time you like.
Sadly, RAW, you cannot add a Trip Augmentation and have a Shield Boss...
There are numerous methods to modify shields—snarling rods to catch weapons, bladed edges, padding for nonlethal strikes, and so on—but all share basic functionality. A shield augmentation can be etched with weapon runes, much like a shield boss or shield spikes, but doesn't otherwise alter your shield's statistics. A shield bearing an augmentation can't be combined with an attached weapon, like shield spikes . . .(Emphasis added.)
I don't think that's correct, a shield bash is explicitly not a weapon and double slice requires a weapon in each hand:
A shield bash is not actually a weapon, but a maneuver in which you thrust or swing your shield to hit your foe with an impromptu attack.
Requirements You are wielding two melee weapons, each in a different hand.