Casters have a lot of save-based spells too, which martials don't. Comparing one segment of their arsenal (attack spells) to martials' attack rolls seems very incomplete. Casters probably should be less effective on their attack rolls, all things considered.Don't forget the Item bonuses at 4, 10, 16 that applies to Martials only. At level 13, for example, they're gonna be 4 points behind a Non-Fighter Martial, for example. non-Fighters already have like 50% chance to hit same-level enemies (or less), this puts Casters at 25-45% chance to hit (depending on level) any time after level 4.Spell Attacks technically have their own proficiency, but a spellcaster's Spell Attack proficiency and Spell DC proficiency for their tradition pretty much universally (so far) increase together. It's theoretically possible they may someday have a class that increases one but not the other, but it seems unlikely.
ETA: Also, since all main-class casters eventually get Legendary in their casting, that means that the only class they end 3 points behind is Fighter. Any other martial they wind up 1 point behind, thanks to the +2 from Legendary. On the other hand though, they don't reach Legendary until level 19, and get all other proficiencies (except Trained of course) later, so they do spend most of their careers a fair bit behind.
Anybody got a side by side comparison of the fighter attack modifiers, versus other martial modifiers, versus the spell attack modifiers?
True, but martials get all kinds of feats that make their attacks much more powerful whereas spellcasters generally don't (Deadly Sorcery being the only exception off the top of my head).
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Casters have a lot of save-based spells too, which martials don't. Comparing one segment of their arsenal (attack spells) to martials' attack rolls seems very incomplete. Casters probably should be less effective on their attack rolls, all things considered.Don't forget the Item bonuses at 4, 10, 16 that applies to Martials only. At level 13, for example, they're gonna be 4 points behind a Non-Fighter Martial, for example. non-Fighters already have like 50% chance to hit same-level enemies (or less), this puts Casters at 25-45% chance to hit (depending on level) any time after level 4.Spell Attacks technically have their own proficiency, but a spellcaster's Spell Attack proficiency and Spell DC proficiency for their tradition pretty much universally (so far) increase together. It's theoretically possible they may someday have a class that increases one but not the other, but it seems unlikely.
ETA: Also, since all main-class casters eventually get Legendary in their casting, that means that the only class they end 3 points behind is Fighter. Any other martial they wind up 1 point behind, thanks to the +2 from Legendary. On the other hand though, they don't reach Legendary until level 19, and get all other proficiencies (except Trained of course) later, so they do spend most of their careers a fair bit behind.
Anybody got a side by side comparison of the fighter attack modifiers, versus other martial modifiers, versus the spell attack modifiers?
Yes and No. Save spells are indeed much better than Attack spells since they can actually hit enemies sometimes. This doesn't mean attack spells deserve to be bad. That'd be like saying that Fighters should get a -2 to range attacks because their melee attacks are good. There should be scenarios for a class to use all of their different tools at their disposal, and there is no scenario for spells that never hit and aren't even stronger than the saving throw ones.
Chart
You forgot to include the magic weapon bonus. All you have there is Level + TEML, which doesn't tell the whole story.
A level 20 fighter has a total +38 to hit stuff after accounting for magic items, attribute, level, and TEML.
Edit: I see you updated to include it, was having to deal with something to complete as I was typing.
Part of martials stacking attack bonuses so high is that you're often going to make a second attack at -5 or -4 due to the MAP and you'd prefer that attack not be totally useless. Opportunities for spellcasters to cast two offensive spells in a round are intentionally hard to come by.
Part of martials stacking attack bonuses so high is that you're often going to make a second attack at -5 or -4 due to the MAP and you'd prefer that attack not be totally useless. Opportunities for spellcasters to cast two offensive spells in a round are intentionally hard to come by.
Whereas fighters definitely have a maximum number of attacks they can make each day, every miss matters.
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I'd like to see Flame Blade brought back in the APG. Druids summoning light sabers were pretty cool, and produce flame doesn't really have the same feel for me.
Also, could we move the discussion of spell attack accuracy to a different thread?
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This is derailing from the point of the thread
Proficiency threads were all the rage back at the launch but are decidedly not what this thread is about. Indeed I am sure there was a thread a month or so back discussing a magic item to boost spell attacks.
This is about spells we would like to see back
It has already been mentioned but Blessing of Fervor was a favourite of one of my PCs. But it was a more complex spell given all the options. The divine list in general looks like it needs some love
I’d like the minor version of shadow blast (used to be shadow evocation). I assume it will exist eventually since it is an ability of the Shae (unless they lose that in transition). I assume just one that drops the damage to 3 dice and rescues the size of the areas affected?
Without wishing to drag up another topic I feel was hotly debated (read: bickered) over it seems like transmutation could also use a boost. They both moved spells and dropped spells at the same time. Perhaps I am coming from a position of wanting to convert Rise when I say this (currently plan is for “Thassilonian Transmuatuon” to basically include the stuff that was moved that still exists)
The things is the animal + ability spells could be useful in their own way now - or at least some of them.
A new Eagles Splendor with a circumstance bonus to charisma based skills would be great for those employing feint or intimidate
Same with strength for manoeuvres , Dex for tumble through. Maybe even the intelligence one could give a boost and let you get one extra piece of info on a recall knowledge ?
There are a fair amount of tactical options in the new game that benefit from temporary boosts unlike the old use of attack rolls, damage, HP and temp save boosts
I'd like to see Flame Blade brought back in the APG. Druids summoning light sabers were pretty cool, and produce flame doesn't really have the same feel for me.
Also, could we move the discussion of spell attack accuracy to a different thread?
Ninja’d due to me going into one on transmutation spells
Agree on flame blade. Once again from a conversion stand point. Was paging through a 1E module with a pretty cool druid with a flame blade. And the AP I want to run in 2E eventually also has a character that uses that
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Etheric Shards was my favorite spell in 1e, but this is probably not the book for it.
Any spells you definitely are happy to see the back of? :D
This would surely only apply to 1E core rulebook spells that didn’t make it. Because we cannot know the other are gone.
I hope slumber hex (not a spell I know) stays gone in the final APG. Although even if it stays the nerf to Sleep means it will no longer be a nightmare
Interesting question though. But I am not sure what spells didn’t make it from the 1E core book - others than the ones mentioned in this thread - most of which I would like to see back
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I'd like to see Flame Blade brought back in the APG. Druids summoning light sabers were pretty cool, and produce flame doesn't really have the same feel for me.
Also, could we move the discussion of spell attack accuracy to a different thread?
Flame blade is really cool and I think could be done quite easily.
FLAME BLADE 2
Traditions arcane, primal
Cast Two Actions somatic, verbal
Targets you
Duration 1 minute
A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this blade-like beam as if it were a scimitar. The weapon has the Forceful and Sweep traits, and does 1d6 damage, and 1 persistent fire damage. It uses your Casting Ability for attack rolls, but does not use strength for damage.
Heightened (4th) Increase the damage to 2d6 + 2 Persistent Fire Damage
Heightened (7th) Increase the damage to 3d6 + 3 Persistent Fire Damage
Heightened (10th) Increase the damage to 4d6 + 4 Persistent Fire Damage
Or something like that!
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I'd go 1/3/7/10 for the levels, that lines up closer with the progression on striking runes.
Accuracy is also an issue, that flame blade isn't getting any potency-rune equivalent. Maybe it should use the caster's spellcasting proficiency, rather than just ability. Or it should have some sort of potency-rune like effect baked in and use the caster's normal weapon proficiency.
I do like the idea of something like that, though.
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I'd go 1/3/7/10 for the levels, that lines up closer with the progression on striking runes.
Accuracy is also an issue, that flame blade isn't getting any potency-rune equivalent. Maybe it should use the caster's spellcasting proficiency, rather than just ability. Or it should have some sort of potency-rune like effect baked in and use the caster's normal weapon proficiency.
I do like the idea of something like that, though.
Ooh, spellcasting proficiency that's the term I was looking for! I do like your change of levels too.
I think it could definitely be more powerful as a cantrip by the level it is most powerful can be doing 10 dice of damage for two actions, this is 8 over two actions and with a lesser chance to hit with both.
I just didn't want to overdo it for fear of going too far the other way!
Be like the alchemical items and give an item bonus to attack at the higher levels.
I'd go 1/3/7/10 for the levels, that lines up closer with the progression on striking runes.
Accuracy is also an issue, that flame blade isn't getting any potency-rune equivalent. Maybe it should use the caster's spellcasting proficiency, rather than just ability. Or it should have some sort of potency-rune like effect baked in and use the caster's normal weapon proficiency.
I do like the idea of something like that, though.
Ooh, spellcasting proficiency that's the term I was looking for! I do like your change of levels too.
I think it could definitely be more powerful as a cantrip by the level it is most powerful can be doing 10 dice of damage for two actions, this is 8 over two actions and with a lesser chance to hit with both.
I just didn't want to overdo it for fear of going too far the other way!
I think a cool utility effect could've been added as well, instead of being just a straight up weapon ability. I would consider making it a better Scimitar for starters by considering it Agile, since it's a beam, therefore it's very light. I would also add the possibility of using the Swipe action, granted by the Fighter/Barbarian feat. Maybe on the heightened versions to avoid granting a 4th level feat to someone using it as a level 1 spell.
This is coming from someone that always thought these kinds of abilities to be really boring and having a huge cost on the action economy. I think that granting one Strike during the actions it's being cast a good way to make it more effective. Or make it 1-action, similar to drawing a weapon, it's still a limited resource that needs to be heightened, so I think it can go easier on the actions.
I miss some of the alternatives for raise dead, clone and reincarnation where fun spells and I hope they return.
I miss some of the alternatives for raise dead, clone and reincarnation where fun spells and I hope they return.
Reincarnate is confirmed to be in as a ritual!
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This isn't exactly an old spell, but I figure if magic users can summon dragons, giants, and constructs, they should be able to summon undead, just with the added limitation that they can't create spawn.
That is very likely to be included in the APG, as a way to make Necromancers feel like, well Necromancers...
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This isn't exactly an old spell, but I figure if magic users can summon dragons, giants, and constructs, they should be able to summon undead, just with the added limitation that they can't create spawn.That is very likely to be included in the APG, as a way to make Necromancers feel like, well Necromancers...
They've specifically noted that this is in as a Necromancy spell, actually. So it's happening.
I'd like to see any of the 25 spells I ported over from 1E return. It'd be a lot of fun to see how Paizo's designs differ from my own.
I've seen a few B2 monsters which I had previously converted and I have to say the comparison is interesting.
I can't believe I forgot to mention one of my favorite spells in anything, Boneshaker. Inf act, Horror Adventures had a ton of spells that deserve to come back.
I can't believe I forgot to mention one of my favorite spells in anything, Boneshaker. Inf act, Horror Adventures had a ton of spells that deserve to come back.
I'm a huge fan of what I like to call "body horror spells" (examples below)
Blindness (if it makes the eyes bleed)
Bloodbath
Blood Boil
Boiling Blood
Boneshaker
Boneshatter
Canopic Conversion
Death Clutch
Excruciating Deformation
Explode Head
Horrid Wilting
Implosion
Lipstitch
Rend Body
Slough
Transmute Blood to Acid
Wither Limb
Essentially they are spells that mutilate and maim your foes, while leaving survivors blanching with horror and disgust.
I'd love to see flame blade, and other spells like it.
In general, to follow up on the attack spell conversation: I think a meta magic class feat that functions like True Strike could be good as a solution for casters that want to specialize in spell attacks, though it could devalue true strike to do that.
I'd love to see flame blade, and other spells like it.
In general, to follow up on the attack spell conversation: I think a meta magic class feat that functions like True Strike could be good as a solution for casters that want to specialize in spell attacks, though it could devalue true strike to do that.
True Strike will always have its niche for gishes, at least.
I'd kinda like to see Detonate in 2e. I almost never used it as a player (though it was a fun spell to add to monsters/npcs who fight to the death), and I'm curious if there is a way to keep the concept of a self-destruct spell but make it a more viable option for PCs.
I'd kinda like to see Detonate in 2e. I almost never used it as a player (though it was a fun spell to add to monsters/npcs who fight to the death), and I'm curious if there is a way to keep the concept of a self-destruct spell but make it a more viable option for PCs.
Perhaps it doesn't have to be their own body to detonate? Kind of a classic Path of Exile pain in the ass, but would there be a Detonate Dead kind of spell that can power off a fresh corpse and damage its remaining allies?
I'd kinda like to see Detonate in 2e. I almost never used it as a player (though it was a fun spell to add to monsters/npcs who fight to the death), and I'm curious if there is a way to keep the concept of a self-destruct spell but make it a more viable option for PCs.Perhaps it doesn't have to be their own body to detonate? Kind of a classic Path of Exile pain in the ass, but would there be a Detonate Dead kind of spell that can power off a fresh corpse and damage its remaining allies?
Eh, not really a self-destruct spell when you cast it on someone else. I think it doing low damage for an AoE, but also having layered debuffs on success/fail/critical fail might be fun.