I don't understand.
It doesn't seem that good, you suffer completely from 1 curse, and you get, what, Ill omen spell?
Misfortune and Fortune don't seem that good to me, but wherever I look this archetype seems to come around, but I fail to see why.
Does this mean you can activate this ability after the die stopped rolling? So if they get a 20 I can't deny it?
Isn't this ability inherently broken?
Also, if you're not being thematic some of the curses have very minor effects that many people simply don't care about dealing with. They're minor annoyances at best, so it's not really a challenge to have two of them.
Does this mean you can activate this ability after the die stopped rolling? So if they get a 20 I can't deny it?
You use the ability after the dice is rolled, but before the GM announces the result. Even if the result is obvious (e.g. natural 20), you can still use it.
Misfortune and Fortune don't seem that good to me, but wherever I look this archetype seems to come around, but I fail to see why.
Misfortune is amazingly versatile. It can save party members by rerolling enemy crits, or force the enemy to reroll successful saves (you don't know the enemy's bonus, but you can usually guess). But that's not all - Misfortune is not limited to enemies, which means youm can use it to make party members reroll failed saves, or crucial attack rolls, concentration checks, whatever. Only once per day per target, but that's still an amazing ability that would be worth taking for the use on friendly targets alone; the package deal that you get is a real steal.
Also, you get two additional revelations, and Fortune isn't bad, either (rerolling failed saves can literally save your life).
Depending on your build and curses selected, Oracle's Burden can be rather powerful - I like the combination of Covetous and Blackened.
Does this mean you can activate this ability after the die stopped rolling? So if they get a 20 I can't deny it?You use the ability after the dice is rolled, but before the GM announces the result. Even if the result is obvious (e.g. natural 20), you can still use it.
Misfortune and Fortune don't seem that good to me, but wherever I look this archetype seems to come around, but I fail to see why.Misfortune is amazingly versatile. It can save party members by rerolling enemy crits, or force the enemy to reroll successful saves (you don't know the enemy's bonus, but you can usually guess). But that's not all - Misfortune is not limited to enemies, which means youm can use it to make party members reroll failed saves, or crucial attack rolls, concentration checks, whatever. Only once per day per target, but that's still an amazing ability that would be worth taking for the use on friendly targets alone; the package deal that you get is a real steal.
Also, you get two additional revelations, and Fortune isn't bad, either (rerolling failed saves can literally save your life).
Depending on your build and curses selected, Oracle's Burden can be rather powerful - I like the combination of Covetous and Blackened.
Ok, now that makes sense. It's extremely powerful then.
I wanted to take this and I was considering 2 curses:
- Deep One. I plan to use Heavy Armor, -5 ft speed nullified
- Covetous. I need UMD, I get it as class skill and +4 to check, for me it's amazing.
I understand now why it's op, I will ask DM if he's ok with that.
It's extremely powerful then.
Those 2 curses are pretty good, and have minimal impact on my character.
On the other hand, I can't believe this is PFS legal, I'm shocked. They're nerfing things like Majordomo archetype and not this
They nerfed what? That's a NPC archetype already!
Curses have a misleading name. A curse is a net benefit in all but two cases, getting two of them is more net benefit.
They nerfed what? That's a NPC archetype already!
Curses have a misleading name. A curse is a net benefit in all but two cases, getting two of them is more net benefit.
Well Majordomo is not legal for PFS, that's why I meant
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This is true. And while it's not actually a sign of the apocalypse that I and Rysky agree, it's rare enough to be worth noting just in case - May 5, 2020.
This is true. And while it's not actually a sign of the apocalypse that I and Rysky agree, it's rare enough to be worth noting just in case - May 5, 2020.
I am witness to this historic event, and am equal parts inspired and horrified.
- Deep One. I plan to use Heavy Armor, -5 ft speed nullified
Huh? Is there something official on armor worn by a creature with 25ft base speed? As a GM, I'd definitly reduce that to 15ft.
On the other hand, I can't believe this is PFS legal, I'm shocked.
I remain convinced that PFS's guideline regarding allowing or disallowing things is "martials can't have nice things".
Curses have a misleading name. A curse is a net benefit in all but two cases, getting two of them is more net benefit.
This is not true. Most curses are beneficial thanks to their level-dependent improvements, but a non-advancing curse is a hinderance more than a benefit for the vast majority of curses*. Of course, nowadays there are enough curses with downsides so irrelevant or upsides worth the cost** that the archetype lost most of its payoff.
*) Aboleth, Acursed, Blackened, Clouded Vision, Cold-Blooded, Consumed, Elemental Imbalance, Haunted, Hive, Hunger, Infested, Lame, Powerless Prophecy, Pranked, Promethean, Putrid, Site-Bound, Song-Bound, Tongues, Toxic Blood, Wasting, Wolfscarred Face, and Wrecker are pretty clearly downgrades, and most likely, Deaf, Deep One, Demonic, Hellbound, Lycanthropy, Possessed, Reclusive, and Scourge, are too.
**) Covetous, Ghoul, Legalistic, Lich, Plagued, Shadowbound, Shattered Psyche, and Vampirism. All of them were written after Dual-Cursed.
Curses have a misleading name. A curse is a net benefit in all but two cases, getting two of them is more net benefit.This is not true. Most curses are beneficial thanks to their level-dependent improvements, but a non-advancing curse is a hinderance more than a benefit for the vast majority of curses*. Of course, nowadays there are enough curses with downsides so irrelevant or upsides worth the cost** that the archetype lost most of its payoff.
*) Aboleth, Acursed, Blackened, Clouded Vision, Cold-Blooded, Consumed, Elemental Imbalance, Haunted, Hive, Hunger, Infested, Lame, Powerless Prophecy, Pranked, Promethean, Putrid, Site-Bound, Song-Bound, Tongues, Toxic Blood, Wasting, Wolfscarred Face, and Wrecker are pretty clearly downgrades, and most likely, Deaf, Deep One, Demonic, Hellbound, Lycanthropy, Possessed, Reclusive, and Scourge, are too.
**) Covetous, Ghoul, Legalistic, Lich, Plagued, Shadowbound, Shattered Psyche, and Vampirism. All of them were written after Dual-Cursed.
Untrue, not for the first time when you're claiming a gotcha. Several of those curses are fine without advancement, though others only work with advancement. Consider the old combo deaf (main) + wolfscarred (secondary) for a start. Tongues is a free skill point in exchange for making the rest of the party cooperate on taking a secret language (a good thing). That's from memory but there's others. Do I need to go thru the list in detail?
Edit: implying that there were only a couple which are a net loss when they're not advanced was a mistake of mine, I admit that. It's not quite what I stated or meant though.
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- Deep One. I plan to use Heavy Armor, -5 ft speed nullifiedHuh? Is there something official on armor worn by a creature with 25ft base speed? As a GM, I'd definitly reduce that to 15ft.
at the bottom of the page here it shows how much heavy armor reduces your movement by. Essentially any movement 25+ gets rounded up to the nearest 10 before the penalty is applied to determine your final speed.
The only problem I've found is the action cost: Immediate action.
If I use a Swift Action on MY turn, am I able on use an Immediate action later, until my next turn begins?
From my point of view it's extremely powerful, considering Divine Interference it's a level 11 feat, and requires burning a spell slot, and only works on attacks and enemies, while Misfortune can also works on allies and on any type of creature.
I couldn't even find if it was a mind-affecting thing, and it's not, it's just an ability.
And, the downside? I mean, I can take Covetous and Plagued, level Plagued and get immunity to sickened, so I have no downside on Covetous except for having to pay some thousands GP on clothes.
If I use a Swift Action on MY turn, am I able on use an Immediate action later, until my next turn begins?
Yes. Using an immediate action costs you your next turn's swift action. After the end of your turn, you can use an immediate again.
If I use a Swift Action on MY turn, am I able on use an Immediate action later, until my next turn begins?Yes. Using an immediate action costs you your next turn's swift action. After the end of your turn, you can use an immediate again.
This is fantastic! It won't cause any issues with my Swift Aid action, it's amazing.
Thanks!
Just to clarify that:
My Turn 1 - I use swift action to cast quickened spell
Enemy turn 1 - Enemy attacks and I use Misfortune to make them reroll.
My turn 2 - I cannot use a swift action because I used an immediate action between my last turn and thos one.
You always have an immediate action available between turns, but if you use an immediate action then you lose your next swift action (the immediate action counts as your following swift action).
Just to clarify that:
My Turn 1 - I use swift action to cast quickened spell
Enemy turn 1 - Enemy attacks and I use Misfortune to make them reroll.
My turn 2 - I cannot use a swift action because I used an immediate action between my last turn and thos one.
You always have an immediate action available between turns, but if you use an immediate action then you lose your next swift action (the immediate action counts as your following swift action).
Thanks for the clarification. I was mostly worried I wouldn't be able to use Swift Aid on my turn because something could happen after that required me to use Misfortune. But as explained, I won't be able to use Swift Aid if I happened to use Misfortune, which is great for me.
I can protect my party at the cost of not using Swift Aid
at the bottom of the page here it shows how much heavy armor reduces your movement by.
Of course, it's in the carrying capacity rules, not the armor rules (which is where I looked - I knew there was something like that, but I only found the table for barding, which is only for greater speeds). *shakes head at Paizo*
If I use a Swift Action on MY turn, am I able on use an Immediate action later, until my next turn begins?
Yes, provided your turn has already ended. An immediate action between your turns counts as your next turn's swift action, what you did last turn is irrelevant.
Untrue, not for the first time when you're claiming a gotcha.
I'm not "claiming a gotcha", I'm saying you are wrong. When I see someone post something that I believe is wrong, I make a post saying so with explanation why I think so (or proof thereof), because I believe incorrect statements should be corrected. Not because I draw enjoyment from proving others wrong, but because I wholeheartedly believe it's the right thing to do.
Consider the old combo deaf (main) + wolfscarred (secondary) for a start.
That's a very specific combination, one that only makes sense if you wanted Deaf anyway. Otherwise, having to take a curse with a weaker benefit as your main curse would be a downside.
Tongues is a free skill point in exchange for making the rest of the party cooperate on taking a secret language (a good thing).
Don't give me that backward reasoning. For the vast majority of groups, it's a downside, pure and simple. I'm not saying it's a huge downside, but I had to chose whether or not to take the 1st level effects of that curse on a character, I would say "no".
That's from memory but there's others. Do I need to go thru the list in detail?
If you want to dispute my statement, then you need to do that, yes. It's up to you if you do, though. I mean, we aren't actually that much in disagreement - nowadays, the double curse thing is pretty much irrelevant at worse and beneficial at best. I just don't like the overly general way you phrased your statement.
Edit: implying that there were only a couple which are a net loss when they're not advanced was a mistake of mine, I admit that.
Am I supposed to say "gotcha" here? As apparently that's what you think my post was all about?
It's not quite what I stated or meant though.
You said "A curse is a net benefit in all but two cases". In the context of the archetype, that statement is objectively wrong. Outside of the context of a non-advancing curse, it would be irrelevant and misleading.
The only problem I've found is the action cost: Immediate action.
I'd argue that negating another person's good roll is somewhat toxic. They rolled well and made the attack / save, against all odds? No, they have to roll again. And this can happen each round, with no save or immunity.
I doubt many GMs actually like such a mechanic being forced upon them. And there is always the risk for the players that they are forced to do rerolls.
Well, I can totally see people being fine with it ("part of the game" etc.), reroll doesn't necessarily mean a bad second roll and fate manipulation is a very thematic thing. But personally I would have preferred a sidebar "this is not for every table".
The only problem I've found is the action cost: Immediate action.I'd argue that negating another person's good roll is somewhat toxic. They rolled well and made the attack / save, against all odds? No, they have to roll again. And this can happen each round, with no save or immunity.
I doubt many GMs actually like such a mechanic being forced upon them. And there is always the risk for the players that they are forced to do rerolls.
Well, I can totally see people being fine with it ("part of the game" etc.), reroll doesn't necessarily mean a bad second roll and fate manipulation is a very thematic thing. But personally I would have preferred a sidebar "this is not for every table".
I do agree on this. I think it's way too broken.
I wanted to take Misfortune from the Witch Class, but I couldn't find a way.Also, since my character build is all about helping the party, I was trying to use another archetype, but having troubles finding one that works.
The only problem I've found is the action cost: Immediate action.I'd argue that negating another person's good roll is somewhat toxic. They rolled well and made the attack / save, against all odds? No, they have to roll again. And this can happen each round, with no save or immunity.
Just to clarify that one. You can only use it once per creature (per day), so most combats it's not really once per round.
I took a 1 level Oracle dip with my Bloodrager when he was resurrected, and took the Posessed Curse (something came back with him) and the Lame curse (some wounds never heal).
I've used this to amazing effect, turning a successful grapple into a fumble (we use a fumble deck), turning enemy saves into fails, and saving my party from Confusion more than once.
However because you have to declare you're using this before the results of the die are revealed, I also turned one enemy miss into a hit, much to the chagrin of the gunslinger.
Also since we've switchted to online pplay I've also started goving instructions like "I'll use Misfortune if you roll higher than "X" on the die (because either I can't see the doce he's rolling at home or I can see the modifiers when he uses an online doce roller, and I'm trying not to metagame that much). I had one turn where I said "I'l use misfortune if you roll a 16 or higher on the die", and then the GM rolled three 15's and obliterated my partner.
Now this is hugely powerful. A No-Save effect that can be used dozens of times per day and it comes from a 1-level dip? Absolutely huge. But I don't think it's close to "every round", and there is immunity (once you've been hit by it you're immune).
I do think it's something you should check with your GM before using though. I went through all the benefits of this dip with my GM step-by-step when I asked if he was ok with it (something I wouldn't do for all dips), and he loved it. It's made me much better at protecting my party (which is my main schtick as the only front-liner), but it hasn't really made me outclass the other party members.