Now that PF2 has been out longer, what are some of the effective caster tactics and spells caster players have found?
They have severely nerfed casters to the point they are not very effective against the most powerful enemies in an adventure due to the way PF2 scales. I'm wondering if anyone has found otherwise with effective tactics that aren't a support role for martials.
What tactics have you found to be effective when battling equal or higher level monsters in PF2? Any particular monsters worth summoning? How are you handling the incapacitation trait?
Some of the spells that have been helpful in games in certain situations:
1. Magic Missile is nice against incorporeal creatures.
2. AoE is still pretty nice against groups of creatures.
3. The Elemental sorcerer can do some bursty hits without the use of Quicken Spell. Elemental Toss combined with another attack spell can do some decent damage.
4. Shadow Blast is a useful spell against creatures with a weakness, especially groups of them.
5. Invis and Greater Invis still pretty nice given fewer creatures seem to have true seeing or invis detection.
6. Phantasmal Killer can be a good spell, though at higher level killing someone with Intimidate might be more effective.
What are some of your effective spells in this edition of reduced caster power?
Caster =\= Blaster
Out of your 6 exemples, 5 are Blaster.
Castres can do plenty, buffs, debuffs,CC etc...
From other posts I have seen even Blaster casters can be effective is supported with buff/debuff from other players.
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Caster =\= Blaster
Out of your 6 exemples, 5 are Blaster.
Castres can do plenty, buffs, debuffs,CC etc...
From other posts I have seen even Blaster casters can be effective is supported with buff/debuff from other players.
The criteria is not being a support role. Not everyone that plays a caster wants to play a support caster. Some want to play caster hammers like they could in 1E.
I want specifically caster combinations where the caster is the star doing the most effective damage or effect to defeat the monster of equivalent level.
Bards can help casters like they can martials do a bit more damage.
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I want specifically caster combinations where the caster is the star doing the most effective damage or effect to defeat the monster of equivalent level.
You do see why that's a problematic desire, right?
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Effects that eat the enemy action economy are really good.
Slow and Hideous Laughter are straight forward, removes one action directly in the effect. Slow casted at lvl 6 against multiple enemies basically win battles.
Resilient Sphere the enemy will most likely to spend actions to break the sphere, making it not only an action waster but a defensive tool because will increase enemy MAP.
Wall spells like Wall of Ice can do the same as Resilient Sphere above but without a save, make a dome of ice around the enemy. Wall of force can split a big battle into two smaller ones.
Command when casted at lvl 5 target 10 enemies, command them to Drop prone or drop their weapon and they will have to spend an action following your command and will most likely spend another to get up or pick the weapon again.
Sustaining spells are a good way to do damage, cast Flaming Sphere once and use cantrips for the rest of the battle to economize spells slots or cast two Flaming Spheres to leave your 3rd action open.
If a party member don't have a use for a reaction they could consider using Aid for the caster spell attacks, a critical success Aid using a legendary proficiency is a +4 Circumstance bonus that is huge, combine with flat footed for a total of +6 in the attack, making critical chances really good.
If a party member don't have a use for a reaction they could consider using Aid for the caster spell attacks, a critical success Aid using a legendary proficiency is a +4 Circumstance bonus that is huge, combine with flat footed for a total of +6 in the attack, making critical chances really good.
Wow I never thought of using aid another to help on spell attack!
What kind of action would help that?
The Witch I GM for enjoys blasting but doesn't like preparing a lot of slots for damage spells because she enjoys utility as well, and Flaming Sphere has been her go-to. She spends a lot of turns going sustain+cast spell, sustain+cantrip, or sustain+move+shield. She's by no means the highest damage dealer, but she's very consistent.
Caster =\= Blaster
Out of your 6 exemples, 5 are Blaster.
Castres can do plenty, buffs, debuffs,CC etc...
From other posts I have seen even Blaster casters can be effective is supported with buff/debuff from other players.
The criteria is not being a support role. Not everyone that plays a caster wants to play a support caster. Some want to play caster hammers like they could in 1E.
I want specifically caster combinations where the caster is the star doing the most effective damage or effect to defeat the monster of equivalent level.
Bards can help casters like they can martials do a bit more damage.
Evocation Wizard with Spell Blending, Bond Conservation, Superior Bond, and Archwizard's Might.
Trade in all 4 level 2 slots for an extra level 3 and level 4 slot. Trade in 4 level 4 slots for an extra level 5 and 6 slot. Trade in 4 level 6 slots for an extra level 7 and 8 slot. Trade in 4 level 8 slots for an extra level 9 and 10 slot. That gives you.
4/0/5/1/5/1/5/1/5/4
Fill them all with Magic Missile.
With all uses of Drain Bonded Item, that gives you a total of
9/6/9/6/8/5/7/4/6/6
Plus, 3 uses of Force Bolt per combat.
Proceed to obliterate any target you choose.
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If a party member don't have a use for a reaction they could consider using Aid for the caster spell attacks, a critical success Aid using a legendary proficiency is a +4 Circumstance bonus that is huge, combine with flat footed for a total of +6 in the attack, making critical chances really good.Wow I never thought of using aid another to help on spell attack!
What kind of action would help that?
Aid will probably have table variation, but stuff like picking sand and throwing at the enemies eyes before the attack hit (deception), shoving the enemy in front of the attack or squeezing the enemy harder while grabing (both Athletics) might be enough.
Some GMs might even allow if you are adjacent to the caster make an Arcane check to help the wizard on the spell attack.
So yeah, will depend of the GM and creativity of players for the Aid.
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If a party member don't have a use for a reaction they could consider using Aid for the caster spell attacks, a critical success Aid using a legendary proficiency is a +4 Circumstance bonus that is huge, combine with flat footed for a total of +6 in the attack, making critical chances really good.Wow I never thought of using aid another to help on spell attack!
What kind of action would help that?
Energetic Cheering.
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I'm not high level enough to answer properly this question, but I've found that using multiple types of saves on your blast spells allows you to target weak saves. My Sorcerer uses Electric Arc and Sound Burst, so he can switch between Reflex and Fortitude.
Multiple target blast on enemies worst saving throw scores crazy high damage with the (not so) occasional critical failure to the save. You can score one critical failure every 2 spells with this tactic.
I love Calm Emotion otherwise. I take it at my second highest spell level, so if our martials get swarmed, I can cast it in the middle of the fight, as they have the Incapacitation trait to help them. Most of the time, if there are more than 3 enemies, they are affected by it despite its low level.
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You do see why that's a problematic desire, right?
I want specifically caster combinations where the caster is the star doing the most effective damage or effect to defeat the monster of equivalent level.
I see now my wording makes it seem like I want the caster to be the only star player. I was thinking more in terms of a group of building a caster that is a star damage dealer like say a rogue, barbarian, or damage-focused fighter.
As in group composition in a four person group would be like the following:
1. Tank: Some Champion or defensive fighter who is very good at controlling enemies and soaking damage.
2. Healer-Support type: Like a cleric who can keep people alive and provide buffing support.
3+. Damage Dealers: Rogues, barbarians, ranger archers. The classes that bring the hammer.
Damage dealers who deal star damage. Who can bring the hammer. Can you make a caster who can be one of two or three star damage dealers in an average sized group on a continuous basis.
That's more what I'm looking for. Can you build a caster if you focus your capabilities on damage that can keep up with damage of the star martial damage dealers? If you forego save or lose spells or the like and focus purely on damage with your slots, can you make a star damage dealer?
If a party member don't have a use for a reaction they could consider using Aid for the caster spell attacks, a critical success Aid using a legendary proficiency is a +4 Circumstance bonus that is huge, combine with flat footed for a total of +6 in the attack, making critical chances really good.Wow I never thought of using aid another to help on spell attack!
What kind of action would help that?Aid will probably have table variation, but stuff like picking sand and throwing at the enemies eyes before the attack hit (deception), shoving the enemy in front of the attack or squeezing the enemy harder while grabing (both Athletics) might be enough.
Some GMs might even allow if you are adjacent to the caster make an Arcane check to help the wizard on the spell attack.
So yeah, will depend of the GM and creativity of players for the Aid.
This could be a useful tactic, though my players are unlikely to help another character with an aid action as they want to do damage.
Evocation Wizard with Spell Blending, Bond Conservation, Superior Bond, and Archwizard's Might.
Trade in all 4 level 2 slots for an extra level 3 and level 4 slot. Trade in 4 level 4 slots for an extra level 5 and 6 slot. Trade in 4 level 6 slots for an extra level 7 and 8 slot. Trade in 4 level 8 slots for an extra level 9 and 10 slot. That gives you.
4/0/5/1/5/1/5/1/5/4
Fill them all with Magic Missile.
With all uses of Drain Bonded Item, that gives you a total of
9/6/9/6/8/5/7/4/6/6
Plus, 3 uses of Force Bolt per combat.
Proceed to obliterate any target you choose.
This looks it could be interesting. That is enough slots to perhaps sustain you as a powerful hitter throughout an adventuring day.
One thing I wish they would add is damage and accuracy increasing items for casters like weapons for martials. Given the way spellcasters are now, it seems unnecessary not to provide them with weapons that increase spell accuracy for at least cantrips and a little damage. Rare is the caster who can win a battle on his own using a save or suck or save or die spell. All he has to add to the battle after he slows a target or the like is a piddly amount of damage.
Spells with the incap trait may be worth occasionally or if boss fights are telegraphed on a regular basis as incap spells are plain dead weight if your opposition is +1 or +2 levels above you. I tend to actively avoid them.
Spells with the incap trait may be worth occasionally or if boss fights are telegraphed on a regular basis as incap spells are plain dead weight if your opposition is +1 or +2 levels above you. I tend to actively avoid them.
If opposition is +1 or +2 levels above you it means you nearly never face 2 enemies. 90% of the enemies you'll face are affected by Incapacitation spells. And I don't even count odd levels where only bosses are immune. Incapacitation works fine.
If opposition is +1 or +2 levels above you it means you nearly never face 2 enemies. 90% of the enemies you'll face are affected by Incapacitation spells. And I don't even count odd levels where only bosses are immune. Incapacitation works fine.
This thread is about key end game fights. I'm sure some players feel very satisfied defeating minion level enemies, but I like to provide a good amount of damage and effectiveness against an end fight against the BBEG. I don't like being relegated as a caster to the "minion killer" guy as martials are just as good at killing minions critting them easier and doing a truck ton of damage.
Spells with the incap trait may be worth occasionally or if boss fights are telegraphed on a regular basis as incap spells are plain dead weight if your opposition is +1 or +2 levels above you. I tend to actively avoid them.
I've been avoiding them as well. I've been avoiding summoning spells too. With the crit rules now only requiring 10 above the AC number, I find martials hammer minion level mobs so fast that any benefit from casting a spell that affects a bunch of minion level creatures is a waste of time. Martials with the easy crits carve a quick path through lesser creatures and their ACs are so high comparatively to the hit rolls for minion level creatures, that they don't face much danger doing so. So no need to use an incapacitate spell on a lesser creature since they are so easily dealt with.
Spells with the incap trait may be worth occasionally or if boss fights are telegraphed on a regular basis as incap spells are plain dead weight if your opposition is +1 or +2 levels above you. I tend to actively avoid them.If opposition is +1 or +2 levels above you it means you nearly never face 2 enemies. 90% of the enemies you'll face are affected by Incapacitation spells. And I don't even count odd levels where only bosses are immune. Incapacitation works fine.
Just for anecdotal evidence, here my last 4 "battles" of my current AP.
1x level+3, incap useless by default
1x level+1 plus mooks, battle was so easy it did not especially need incap
2x level+2, incap useless by default (but this battle could be avoided, which we did)
2x level+2, incap useless by default
2x level+2 are Extreme encounters. So, there's something bad (or at least unusual) happening in your AP.
Figure out (recall knowledge) and target the targets weak saves. Don't target AC unless you're OK missing, or have something like True Strike to help out - Martials are better at targeting AC, but luckily you have three other options they can't hit and generally one of those is significantly below their top tier defenses.
Debuff's cripple bad guys - not completely, so the GM still gets to play the game - but who are we kidding, that boss needed the one action he lost even on a save against your spell way more than you think. Also, anything that lowers AC or Saves becomes shockingly deadly very quickly.
Buffs are amazing. Granting bonuses to hit is always worth it, even if they seem minor (hint - in PF2, +1 is a lot, and well worth it). If you can hand out concealment, maneuverability, extra actions... do it. Haste only seems limited in the actions it grants until you consider most people were going to do one of those anyway most of the time, and at that point it becomes like a balanced version of previous editions haste.
Blast things to hell - with discernment. Spellcasters can deal loads of damage, but you need to go about it more carefully than someone swinging a sword. AOE's are crippling against minions and enemies at level on a bad save. Crit fails do happen, will happen, and you'll be cackling maniacly in no time as you wreck encounters to death. What you won't do is nuke bosses terribly effectively - but the thing to keep in mind is your martial cohorts also are going to be doing absolutely nothing on a miss, which they'll do more often than normal, while you still plink steadily away at their terminally dwindling hitpoints.
My actual experience thus far is that Spellcasters are in a great spot. That is to say, they may be absolutely less powerful than previous editions, but playing one isn't taking away from anyone who isn't a Spellcaster at the table. And they're absolutely still capable of being the lynchpin of a group - but they're far less likely to make the rest of the group effectively obsolete..
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Fortune effects are really important for casters. True Strike gets discussed a lot, but Hero Points are also a really good resource. If your big shots have spell attack rolls, you should be saving your hero points in case your shot misses.
If opposition is +1 or +2 levels above you it means you nearly never face 2 enemies. 90% of the enemies you'll face are affected by Incapacitation spells. And I don't even count odd levels where only bosses are immune. Incapacitation works fine.This thread is about key end game fights. I'm sure some players feel very satisfied defeating minion level enemies, but I like to provide a good amount of damage and effectiveness against an end fight against the BBEG. I don't like being relegated as a caster to the "minion killer" guy as martials are just as good at killing minions critting them easier and doing a truck ton of damage.
That's not really true. A martial can mess up a single minion, sure, but they have very few options for damaging multiple minions at once. And wading through minions tends to get you messed up quick, because even know level enemies have good enough attack bonuses to hit a fighter pretty consistently. They also provide flanking and box in mobility.
We had a book end boss fight in one of my APs, and the party was pretty much all martial or single target damage. The party got swarmed by minions while the spellcaster boss hung back and threw fireballs and harms. The PCs couldn't get through the choke point to reach the boss-- every minion that got cut down was replaced by another, and all 3 frontliners got knocked out at some point or another.
When they dropped the last minion, the boss got swarmed and killed within a round. But that fight would have been so much easier if they party could lob a fireball at the time.
Fortune effects are really important for casters. True Strike gets discussed a lot, but Hero Points are also a really good resource. If your big shots have spell attack rolls, you should be saving your hero points in case your shot misses.
I can see True Strike being useful with some spells. I have to find all the attack roll spells.
That's not really true. A martial can mess up a single minion, sure, but they have very few options for damaging multiple minions at once. And wading through minions tends to get you messed up quick, because even know level enemies have good enough attack bonuses to hit a fighter pretty consistently. They also provide flanking and box in mobility.
We had a book end boss fight in one of my APs, and the party was pretty much all martial or single target damage. The party got swarmed by minions while the spellcaster boss hung back and threw fireballs and harms. The PCs couldn't get through the choke point to reach the boss-- every minion that got cut down was replaced by another, and all 3 frontliners got knocked out at some point or another.
When they dropped the last minion, the boss got swarmed and killed within a round. But that fight would have been so much easier if they party could lob a fireball at the time.
I found this to be true until about lvl 7. Once the martials hit about lvl 7 (whenever they get critical specializations) with a few magic items, they really started ripping minions around 2 levels lower apart. Those critical specialization effects with weapons can be quite nasty, especially for a rogue or archer. Archer pinning people down with crits keeps them from moving unless they want to waste an action. The rogue can flat foot a target with a sword crit, then follow up with hits without a flank or enemy close with sneak attack. They can get pretty nasty. Then add in a champion blocking damage and hitting here and there, and they really didn't need a caster there. The wizard player felt very underwhelmed and unnecessary. And he really wasn't necessary and was underwhelming at the same level.
What level were your minions? Did they have some special power or just a lot of hit points? I can see higher level minions being harder to carve through due to hit points. 7th to 10th may be a sweet spot for wiping out minions.
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What level were your minions? Did they have some special power or just a lot of hit points?
These were level 1 and 2 minions and a 5th level boss against a level 4 party. Nothing particularly special.
I can see higher level minions being harder to carve through due to hit points. 7th to 10th may be a sweet spot for wiping out minions.
So I've only had 3 PC deaths in PF2, not counting the playtest. One was 4th level and got ambushed by a Greater Barghast (no, not that one.) One died at 11th from an enemy sorcerer using AoE spells.
The last one was also at 11th level. The party had bluffed their way into an audience with the BBEG, only to be found out while the BBEG's lieutenant was still in the room. The result was two encounters getting rolled into one: an 11th level giant, a 9th level spellcaster, and a whole lot of 8th level minions. The fight was pretty hectic, as you can probably imagine. The bard wound up in a bad way, isolated with a bunch of these minions ripping into him while the rest of the party was trying to fight the leaders. He actually went down and got healed back up by the cleric. The bard could have dimension doored to safety, but instead opted to drop a Phantasmal Calamity centered on himself. The spell practically wiped the board clean, removing most of the minions and the big giant. unfortunately, two of the only surviving creatures were the minions that were right on top of the bard and had made their saves, and they proceeded to knock him out and toss his body in a blade barrier for good measure-- they weren't taking any risks after he dropped that kind of bomb.
The bard died, but he saved the rest of his party from what was looking like a TPK. It felt like a good demonstration of spellcasting power, and the danger of even level-3 minions to boot.
The game is well balanced, minions are as strong as bosses. But most tough fights will happen against single bosses and most filling fights against minions so people tend to remember single bosses as harder than minions.
Actually, if you want to design auto TPK fights you'll use level-4 enemies.
The game is well balanced, minions are as strong as bosses. But most tough fights will happen against single bosses and most filling fights against minions so people tend to remember single bosses as harder than minions.
Actually, if you want to design auto TPK fights you'll use level-4 enemies.
Yes, thats because by design you tank with hit points in PF2 as your defenses are a joke (in comparison to PF1), and as monsters mostly have the numbers advantage over even level characters you will get hit and damaged even by level-4 opponents. Action advantage is only as good as the relevant actions are still effective, and in PF2 they are.
One other big take away I had from that fight is minions are really deadly because they are more likely to hit you while you're down. A single boss is going to keep swinging on whoever is still standing most of the time, but minions are much more likely to have the actions and breathing room to make sure you stay down.
Incapacitation spells vs well positioned Minions that utilize ranged attacks and are difficult to get to in melee can be incredibly useful, but it really depends on your party composition. At level 3, my party of 5 stumbled into an encounter against 5 level 2 archers, a level 3 or 4 Melee creature, and a level 5 or 6 caster. We had 1 round against just the archers, before the melee boss joined in, and then 1 more round before the caster boss joined in, fully buffed. The archers in trees did more damage to the party than both of the bosses, because they were spread out and our primary offensive casting capabilities were focused too heavily on single target save based damage dealing.
My cleric's ability to create concealment around our party played a huge role in negating the effectiveness of the bosses, as the caster missed with a 3rd level spell, and the melee boss lost a critical hit.
It negated two of our attacks as well, but trading two single action attacks from the party for stopping spells and crits definitely felt worth it this time.
Building casters only to deal with bosses can blow up in your face, especially if your party has a glaring weakness (like being too melee focused), when you run into a large number of enemies ready to exploit it.
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Yes, thats because by design you tank with hit points in PF2 as your defenses are a joke (in comparison to PF1), and as monsters mostly have the numbers advantage over even level characters you will get hit and damaged even by level-4 opponents. Action advantage is only as good as the relevant actions are still effective, and in PF2 they are.The game is well balanced, minions are as strong as bosses. But most tough fights will happen against single bosses and most filling fights against minions so people tend to remember single bosses as harder than minions.
Actually, if you want to design auto TPK fights you'll use level-4 enemies.
Saying defenses are a joke is a bit of a stretch.
Yes, the numbers are rigged such that going completely unhit is unlikely, but your AC has a huge influence on how much damage you take.
Not getting crit because you invested in AC is literally exactly as beneficial as going from a hit to a miss. More so, if critical effects are in play.
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For minions, the best are casters. You can score 4 digit damage per round with them. You basically one round kill a whole party.
By the way, I've found a very good spell against bosses, as long as they are at least large: Wall of Fire. Automatic damage, so you don't care about the boss very high Save bonuses. And if you position it properly, the boss may not be able to get out of the wall with one step. So, he needs to either multistep or move (and take attacks of opportunity).
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Any particular monsters worth summoning?
Illusory Creature. You can match it to enemy weaknesses and the AC and attack bonuses scale with level, not spell level, meaning you can get use out of an illusory creature from a lower level slot than you could a summon.
These were level 1 and 2 minions and a 5th level boss against a level 4 party. Nothing particularly special.
So it was your 11th lvl party tossing fireballs and harms?
The last one was also at 11th level. The party had bluffed their way into an audience with the BBEG, only to be found out while the BBEG's lieutenant was still in the room. The result was two encounters getting rolled into one: an 11th level giant, a 9th level spellcaster, and a whole lot of 8th level minions. The fight was pretty hectic, as you can probably imagine. The bard wound up in a bad way, isolated with a bunch of these minions ripping into him while the rest of the party was trying to fight the leaders. He actually went down and got healed back up by the cleric. The bard could have dimension doored to safety, but instead opted to drop a Phantasmal Calamity centered on himself. The spell practically wiped the board clean, removing most of the minions and the big giant. unfortunately, two of the only surviving creatures were the minions that were right on top of the bard and had made their saves, and they proceeded to knock him out and toss his body in a blade barrier for good measure-- they weren't taking any risks after he dropped that kind of bomb.
The bard died, but he saved the rest of his party from what was looking like a TPK. It felt like a good demonstration of spellcasting power, and the danger of even level-3 minions to boot.
Bards are the best caster class in the game in my experience. One of the few caster classes able to use a highly useful 1 action support action combined with a 2 action spell. Far superior to the wizard.
Any particular monsters worth summoning?Illusory Creature. You can match it to enemy weaknesses and the AC and attack bonuses scale with level, not spell level, meaning you can get use out of an illusory creature from a lower level slot than you could a summon.
"Avante Demon! Face death at the hands of blessed cold iron!"
Illusory Creature is fantastic and encourages good roleplay. I love it.
The game is well balanced, minions are as strong as bosses. But most tough fights will happen against single bosses and most filling fights against minions so people tend to remember single bosses as harder than minions.
Actually, if you want to design auto TPK fights you'll use level-4 enemies.
PCs built to tank have quite good ACs. How do minion-4 hit after the second attack when the -4 or -5 and lower kicks in? Minions are usually lucky to land one hit.
Are your PCs not building with Dex in mind?
Illusory Creature. You can match it to enemy weaknesses and the AC and attack bonuses scale with level, not spell level, meaning you can get use out of an illusory creature from a lower level slot than you could a summon.
I looked at this spell. Not sure why it is considered good. Any kind of hit on this spell ends it from anything. Joe Smo lucky orc could hit it and it's gone. I'm surprised it's been that effectively used.
PCs built to tank have quite good ACs. How do minion-4 hit after the second attack when the -4 or -5 and lower kicks in? Minions are usually lucky to land one hit.
Are your PCs not building with Dex in mind?
Lvl 9 Ranger PC 27AC Fighter with Heavy Armor 28AC
Lvl 5 Barbazu Attack +15 Hits the Ranger on a 12 and Fighter with a 13
Lvl 5 Cloacker +14 hits the Ranger on a 13 and Fighter with a 14
Lvl 5 Living Landslide +16 hits the Ranger on a 11 and Fighter with a 12
So they in average hits between 40 to 50% their attacks, now a moderate encounter with -4 lvl creatures will have 8 of them and most likely flank the players so it can increases their chances to 50 and 60%. That is only for the hit rates of common attacks, Barbazus per example have an action that let them have one more attack without MAP and cause Infernal Wounds as well.
Illusory Creature. You can match it to enemy weaknesses and the AC and attack bonuses scale with level, not spell level, meaning you can get use out of an illusory creature from a lower level slot than you could a summon.I looked at this spell. Not sure why it is considered good. Any kind of hit on this spell ends it from anything. Joe Smo lucky orc could hit it and it's gone. I'm surprised it's been that effectively used.
From in-play experience (a Bard with Summon Fey and Illusory Creature), summoned fey haven't actually lasted much longer than an illusion. Low HP, low AC, adds up to the 'real deal' summon being really fragile. Neither last a long time, but the summon wasn't that much ahead of the illusion. Maybe another round at most. Meanwhile Illusory Creature can be cast in the same round as doing something else while Summon X grinds your turn to a halt. So stuff like Recall Knowledge to find weakness to fire then conjuring an illusory fire elemental to exploit is possible.
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Illusory Creature. You can match it to enemy weaknesses and the AC and attack bonuses scale with level, not spell level, meaning you can get use out of an illusory creature from a lower level slot than you could a summon.I looked at this spell. Not sure why it is considered good. Any kind of hit on this spell ends it from anything. Joe Smo lucky orc could hit it and it's gone. I'm surprised it's been that effectively used.
It easily exploits any weakness for solid damage, especially so against anything with more than one weakness.
They don't get any damage refund if they take it out with an attack - that only happens if they get a save, which isn't actually that easy to get, since its no longer free.
Even if it can't deal damage amazing damage, if it can bait a first attack in a round, its better than Slowed 1 (because it ate THE BEST attack).
I've had it not just be consistently good, but consistently REALLY good.
Lvl 9 Ranger PC 27AC Fighter with Heavy Armor 28AC
Lvl 5 Barbazu Attack +15 Hits the Ranger on a 12 and Fighter with a 13
Lvl 5 Cloacker +14 hits the Ranger on a 13 and Fighter with a 14
Lvl 5 Living Landslide +16 hits the Ranger on a 11 and Fighter with a 12
So they in average hits between 40 to 50% their attacks, now a moderate encounter with -4 lvl creatures will have 8 of them and most likely flank the players so it can increases their chances to 50 and 60%. That is only for the hit rates of common attacks, Barbazus per example have an action that let them have one more attack without MAP and cause Infernal Wounds as well.
Are you not including the penalty on each attack after the first? Why would they easily be able to flank the players? They have to move into position which usually allows the archer to pepper them down. A well-built rogue usually can move between 30 and 35 in and out of combat unless they have AOOs. With three actions, they have to move to keep up, then they get one to two actions allowing them to strike once at the percentage you list, then a much lower hit chance.
What if the fighter has +1 armor and a +1 shield? The Champion in my group has an AC of 33.
10th level +1 heavy armor +7 item bonus to AC and a +1 shield +3 bonus to AC. Expert in Heavy Armor +4
10+10+4+7+3=34 AC when using raise a shield action. When bard defense song going that is 35.
Rogue has a 28 AC without song with +1 leather armor.
Suffice it to say my PCs don't move or build where it is easy to move in, flank them, and then attack at will. Mobility is at a premium in this edition and PCs build for mobility. The rogue even has mobility allowing them to move half speed while Avoiding AoOs. With sneak attack and gang up, they can usually move in and out of fights ripping enemies up limiting to them one attack at most and certainly not flanked with Deny Advantage. Barbarians are hard to flank as well and do crap tons of damage, though easier to hit.
It easily exploits any weakness for solid damage, especially so against anything with more than one weakness.
They don't get any damage refund if they take it out with an attack - that only happens if they get a save, which isn't actually that easy to get, since its no longer free.
Even if it can't deal damage amazing damage, if it can bait a first attack in a round, its better than Slowed 1 (because it ate THE BEST attack).
I've had it not just be consistently good, but consistently REALLY good.
I can see this. If you have a major boss fighting multiple PCs, it may not look to waste a single attack on the flanking low damage creature. If it does, then that is one less attack that hits the PCs. I may give this one a shot again. On paper it looks pretty lame, but I can see how in action when cast at the right time, it might help out.
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Anytime a dangerous monster attacks a summoned creature you get to pump the fist and do a victory lap.
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The game is well balanced, minions are as strong as bosses. But most tough fights will happen against single bosses and most filling fights against minions so people tend to remember single bosses as harder than minions.
Actually, if you want to design auto TPK fights you'll use level-4 enemies.
PCs built to tank have quite good ACs. How do minion-4 hit after the second attack when the -4 or -5 and lower kicks in? Minions are usually lucky to land one hit.
Are your PCs not building with Dex in mind?
Hit? Who needs to hit?
12 level 1 wizards (level 5 Severe encounter) deals 126 automatic Force damage per round.12 level 11 evil Divine Sorcerers (level 15 Severe encounter) deal 546 AoE untyped damage per round to all good characters, save for half.
And these are not optimized encounters.
12 level 11 Arcane Sorcerers with Quicken Spell and Dangerous Sorcery casting Chain Lightning 6 and Fireball 4 (and under Spell Immunity 5 against Fireball so they can even target themselves with their Fireballs) deal 1080 lightning/Fire damage, which should obliterate any level 15 parties in less than a single round.
So, obviously, any DM putting you against such encounters has his own issues. But if instead of putting a level + 3 boss you put a level + 2 boss and add 4 of these guys to compensate I can assure you your players will ignore the boss despite him being 2 thirds of the budget of the encounter.
Spellcaster minions are very nice additions to fights. The healbot Cleric with Reach Spell healing the boss every round 50 feet away from the fight and behind Greater Cover, the Bard casting Inspire Courage and Synesthesia every round, even the level 5 caster using Reach Fear 3 every round on your party, all these guys will be really painfull to your players and become at a moment or another primary targets.
Now, if you want to put non-spellcaster minions, we can take Kyrone's Barbazus, put 6 of them instead of 8 and compensate with a level 8 Bard with Invisibility 4 (for himself), Fear 3 (for the party) and Inspire Courage + Inspire Heroics. He doesn't Inspire himself, so the DC of Inspire Heroics is only 25 and he succeeds on a 4 if he is extreme in Performance.
So, the Barbarzus have + 1/3 to hit and damage (Inspire Performance), players have -1/2 to AC (Fear). And for flanking, you said there's a Champion in your party. Everyone knows that tripping Champions of Iomedae is a national sport in hell (Barbazus succeed on a 11 before bonuses if your Champion has 10 Dexterity).
I don't know how you calculate your ACs, but a level 9 Champion has 30 AC. 27 if he's on the ground and Frightened 1. So, the Barbazus with + 2 to hit hits him on a 10. They can even go for a second attack.
Boss fights are easy to handle, you just take whatever level + 3 creature and the fight should be roughly balanced. Minions need a bit more tweaking. You can easily end up with useless minions or auto TPK fights if you put whatever creatures come to your mind.
Lvl 9 Ranger PC 27AC Fighter with Heavy Armor 28AC
Lvl 5 Barbazu Attack +15 Hits the Ranger on a 12 and Fighter with a 13
Lvl 5 Cloacker +14 hits the Ranger on a 13 and Fighter with a 14
Lvl 5 Living Landslide +16 hits the Ranger on a 11 and Fighter with a 12
So they in average hits between 40 to 50% their attacks, now a moderate encounter with -4 lvl creatures will have 8 of them and most likely flank the players so it can increases their chances to 50 and 60%. That is only for the hit rates of common attacks, Barbazus per example have an action that let them have one more attack without MAP and cause Infernal Wounds as well.
Are you not including the penalty on each attack after the first? Why would they easily be able to flank the players? They have to move into position which usually allows the archer to pepper them down. A well-built rogue usually can move between 30 and 35 in and out of combat unless they have AOOs. With three actions, they have to move to keep up, then they get one to two actions allowing them to strike once at the percentage you list, then a much lower hit chance.
What if the fighter has +1 armor and a +1 shield? The Champion in my group has an AC of 33.
10th level +1 heavy armor +7 item bonus to AC and a +1 shield +3 bonus to AC. Expert in Heavy Armor +4
10+10+4+7+3=34 AC when using raise a shield action. When bard defense song going that is 35.
Rogue has a 28 AC without song with +1 leather armor.
Suffice it to say my PCs don't move or build where it is easy to move in, flank them, and then attack at will. Mobility is at a premium in this edition and PCs build for mobility. The rogue even has mobility allowing them to move half speed while Avoiding AoOs. With sneak attack and gang up, they can usually move in and out of fights ripping enemies up limiting to them one attack at most and certainly not flanked with Deny Advantage. Barbarians are hard to flank as well and do crap tons of damage, though easier to hit.
Is there a specific shield that gives a +3 circumstance bonus to AC? I don't that that exist. You could use a tower shield for +4 AC if you use 2 actions to raise it and take cover. This isn't actually a too bad option for a character with enough bulk to actually carry it around.
Still, getting up to 34 AC means that level -4 martially inclined enemies on average need an 18 to hit and a 16 with a flank. The Champion is extremely tough. It's going to be profitable for them to ignore the champion and go around to try to harass the bard at 29 AC instead.
Hit? Who needs to hit?
12 level 1 wizards (level 5 Severe encounter) deals 126 automatic Force damage per round.
12 level 11 evil Divine Sorcerers (level 15 Severe encounter) deal 546 AoE untyped damage per round to all good characters, save for half.And these are not optimized encounters.
12 level 11 Arcane Sorcerers with Quicken Spell and Dangerous Sorcery casting Chain Lightning 6 and Fireball 4 (and under Spell Immunity 5 against Fireball so they can even target themselves with their Fireballs) deal 1080 lightning/Fire damage, which should obliterate any level 15 parties in less than a single round.So, obviously, any DM putting you against such encounters has his own issues. But if instead of putting a level + 3 boss you put a level + 2 boss and add 4 of these guys to compensate I can assure you your players will ignore the boss despite him being 2 thirds of the budget of the encounter.
Spellcaster minions are very nice additions to fights. The healbot Cleric with Reach Spell healing the boss every round 50 feet away from the fight and behind Greater Cover, the Bard casting Inspire Courage and Synesthesia every round, even the level 5 caster using Reach Fear 3 every round on your party, all these guys will be really painfull to your players and become at a moment or another primary targets.
Now, if you want to put non-spellcaster minions, we can take Kyrone's Barbazus, put 6 of them instead of 8 and compensate with a...
So now you're creating these encounter that don't usually show up too often to prove that minions are effective. Yeah, if I build some strange, optimized encounters using very specific spells over and over and over again, I guess they'll have problems.
Sorry, I am unmoved by your argument. My experience DMing is ACs are not weak. A 35 AC is quite hard to hit, especially beyond the first attack. Against lower level minions PC saves do quite well along with abilities that turn a success into a critical success for no damage like Evasion.
Most minions are lucky to land the first hit in their attack sequence. Then they get mowed down fairly quickly when the PCs hit more often and in a very coordinated fashion.
For example, the cleric player took a multiclass feat to gain invisibility. He likes to turn himself invisible and cast healing and support spells that don't do hostile damage while moving around invisibly. Not as many creatures have see invisibility in this edition, so that has proven to be quite an effective tactic.
One thing that is better in this edition is boss fights are tough as hell now. So throwing in minions with a powerful boss encounter is real dangerous now and you have to be careful. My party fought a Gelugon which was lvl+3, they almost got pasted by the one creature. That I like.
At the same time, the caster PCs against those bosses are pretty lame. They don't do much damage and the bosses saves are super high usually. Spells with the incapacitate trait are not effective.
Is there a specific shield that gives a +3 circumstance bonus to AC? I don't that that exist. You could use a tower shield for +4 AC if you use 2 actions to raise it and take cover. This isn't actually a too bad option for a character with enough bulk to actually carry it around.
No. You are right. I believe the Champion has a Spined Shield. I see that is a +1 striking shield, but the +1 does not add to AC. So must be 34.
Still, getting up to 34 AC means that level -4 martially inclined enemies on average need an 18 to hit and a 16 with a flank. The Champion is extremely tough. It's going to be profitable for them to ignore the champion and go around to try to harass the bard at 29 AC instead.
It seems like the experience of others differs from mine. My experience is the Champion is very hard to hit and bring down and along with Champion's Reaction does a good job against bosses and minions making it harder for them to harm party members.
The archer generally stays out of damage by moving and making it hard for enemies to flank him or keep up with him given most monsters move at 25 feet versus his 30 feet often buffed by alchemist potion for 40 feet of move per action.
I don't mind it. I'm not saying minions are useless. You really don't need a wizard or other caster to handle minions. They can be handled nearly as quickly by regular damage by martials.
It seems like the experience of others differs from mine. My experience is the Champion is very hard to hit and bring down and along with Champion's Reaction does a good job against bosses and minions making it harder for them to harm party members.
I'll back you. Both my campaigns have a Champion in the party, and they more or less single-handedly ruin the ability of bad guys to hurt the party.
Attacking the Champion results in either missing or dealing minimal damage due to shield block, and attacking anyone else gets mitigated by the Champions Reaction. Depending on which type of reaction, it short circuits damage in other ways (stepping out of melee, enfeebling the attacker).
Its too the point that I'm starting to play in a game with no Champion, and I'm somewhat concerned about our survival prospects... though I expect my healer will have plenty to do.
Wands of Manifold Missiles are extremely effective at dealing damage to hard to damage targets. For 1 action, you get up to 10 actions of magic missiles. Arcane and Occult casters focusing on damage should own at least one of these to deploy in fights with hard targets. It's one of the only ways I've found to be more effective than just casting the highest level spell slot available.
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My character is a human universalist wizard that took 2x weapon prof general feat from 1st lvl and knows how to use all martial weapons.
He uses Hand of the Apprentice to throw his greatsword 500ft as 1 action in addition to casting a 2 action non attackroll blast spell, or uses a true strike + HotA
He's 10th level currently and has a +2 striking, wounding, flaming greatsword that he can throw max 4 times in a single fight(2 focus points and 2 abilities to regenerate them 1/day) and has bespell for extra d6
2d12+2d6+5+1d6 persistent bleed(d12bleed+d10 persfire+ flatfooted on crit)
against boss opponents i usually use sudden bolt + HotA and i wait for a fear+flatfooted debuff from my party before i go all in
7d12 sudden bolt 5lvl + HotA does amazing dmg to a single opponent at this point for me
I also use phantasmal killer alot on all beasty monsters that usually have bad will saves(extra fear debuff let's me hit it better w HotA after)
In addition I also have rogue dedication and I'm the party rogue and crafter with maxed thievery and crafting...playing Age of Ashes
EDIT - I find HotA a better alternative to Elemental toss bc it let's you add item bonus to spell attack...the only thing in the game that does AFAIK