How necessary are d20s in d20 games (opinions wanted)

[vonFiedler]

Let's say that I'm making a pretty extensive homebrew of 1st edition Pathfinder. It's a d20 game in the sense that it has classes and levels and most of the things you would expect to find in either edition of Pathfinder or most editions of a certain other d20 game.

So you are attempting to do anything in the game, such as roll to hit, or perform a skill check, etc. You put your hand in your dice bag and pull out a d10 as explained by your GM.

At this point, do you keep playing the game because that doesn't matter to you, or do you chuck your dice bag in the GM's face and leave, shouting things like "sacrilege!", or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

People who plays lots of other tabletop games would probably be more open-minded in general to other dice configurations, but we're talking about a recognizable d20-like game but without the d20s. My reasons for using a d10 instead are not arbitrary, but that doesn't really matter, as some people would always assume it's arbitrary anyway. I'm just wondering how many of those people exist.

TL;DR Would you enjoy a game like Pathfinder equally if it used d10s instead of d20s, or would you dislike it?

[blahpers]

There are plenty of perfectly playable TTRPGs with "class and levels and most of the things you would expect to find" that don't use d20s. There's nothing sacred about the shape of the die.

[Firebug]

Some systems make it so you roll different sized dice depending on how good you are at whatever it is you are attempting.
'
One of my friends made a system where you increase the die size depending on your skill (and decrease it from negative modifiers).
So you would start with a (d2<-d3<-)d4->d6->d8->d10->d12-> d12+d4 ->d12+d6, etc.

Various versions of Shadowrun required you to get a TN(target number) 15+ on a d6... because when you rolled a 6, you rerolled and added 6 and repeat until you stop rolling 6s.

Typically though, these are more skill based vs class based systems but you could make the case.

[avr]

Fine. I've played a lot more games than PF though, I can't speak for those who have played just one or two RPGs ever.

[Kimera757]

Quote:

At this point, do you keep playing the game because that doesn't matter to you, or do you chuck your dice bag in the GM's face and leave, shouting things like "sacrilege!", or "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

I'm not a big fan of GMs imposing huge changes to a system like that. I had to walk from a game due to that.

That would have an impact on optimization (so now the GM has to put extra effort into assuring no PCs are weak or overpowered compared to a d20 system). I'd be more forgiving of 2d10 instead but there's still the optimization issue.

[RJGrady]

Unisystem uses a d12. GURPS uses 3d6.

[glass]

vonFiedler wrote:

So you are attempting to do anything in the game, such as roll to hit, or perform a skill check, etc. You put your hand in your dice bag and pull out a d10 as explained by your GM.

I would not automatically object to a system that used d10s rather than d20s, but I would obviously need to see the details of the system and the rationale behind the changes.

What I would not accept is changes of that magnitude being introduced at the point when I reach for the die, which the OP seems to be implying, but I assume that bit is a joke.

_
glass.

[Haladir]

For a different take that still treads familiar ground, you might want to check out Green Ronin's Adventure Game Engine ("AGE System") family of games.

Three of their AGE System RPGs have fantasy settings...

Fantasy AGE is their generic "Heroic Fantasy" game, and it pretty much treads the same ground as D&D/Pathfinder.

The Dragon Age RPG is a licensed product that lets you play a tabletop version of the popular videogame series.

Blue Rose is a somewhat different take: It's "Romantic Fantasy", meaning that it emphasizes interpersonal relationships and dramatic situations over combat: It's a game more about resolving conflict with words and actions rather than with violence... although violence is still an option.

(Alas, you missed the chance to get a free PDF of the Fantasy AGE Core Rulebook for free: That offer ended earlier this week.)

These are all class/level games, so that will feel familiar to d20 players. The dice mechanic is quite a bit different: AGE System only uses d6. Skill checks and attack rolls are done on 3d6, meaning that rolls are far less swingy than in d20: You're rolling on a bell curve, meaning that you're most likely going to roll a 9-11 most of the time.

When you roll those 3d6, two must be one color, and the third is a different color: That one is the "Drama Die" and special things happen when the Drama Die matches the same value of one or both of the other dice rolled.

As far as rules complexity ("crunch") goes, it's about on the same level as D&D 5E.

[LordKailas]

So long as everything is balanced and well explained its fine. There are rpgs that use the Fudge system. instead of rolling a d20 you roll one or more fudge dice (typically 4) which are six sided dice that instead of numbers have a two +'s, two -'s and two blanks.

When rolling every plus adds 1 and every minus subtracts 1 from your result.

Since characters are built around this approach everything works fine. You tend to find this system being used in rpgs that are more story focused when really all you're looking for is if you passed or failed the check in question. Instead of worrying about trying to do a bunch of math.

The advantage/disadvantage to this is that dice rolls tend to be much less "swingey" since the method produces a bell curve instead of the flat line a d20 gives you.

Honestly, the whole D20 system thing was something Wizards of the Coast came up with when they introduced 3rd edition dungeons and dragons. They came out with a universal system anyone was allowed to use with the idea being that most actions in the game would be resolved by rolling a 20 sided die to which you added or subtracted some modifiers based on what you were rolling.

Many new rpgs that came out after that adopted the d20 system because it helped flatten the learning curve. It also meant they didn't have to re-invent the wheel for their own rpg. Now if you knew how to play D&D you could easily pick up Stargate, Starwars or even Darwin's World right away. you could even lift characters, creatures and gear from one system and drop them into another with ease.

Prior to that when you went to go learn a new RPG who knows what kind of dice you might be using or if you were even using dice at all (deadlands used a deck of cards). So, I don't think there is anything inherent about using a D20. It's merely familiar.

[Valandil Ancalime]

vonFiedler wrote:

Let's say that I'm making a pretty extensive homebrew of 1st edition Pathfinder. It's a d20 game in the sense that it has classes and levels and most of the things you would expect to find in either edition of Pathfinder or most editions of a certain other d20 game.

...
TL;DR Would you enjoy a game like Pathfinder equally if it used d10s instead of d20s, or would you dislike it?

The type of dice doesn't matter, but an extensive set of houserules usually leads me to ask, why did you want to play this system in the first place? I'd play it if I liked it and wouldn't if I didn't, and if I would like it would depend on the specifics of the game and how you are modifying a "d20" game to use a d10.

[gnoams]

The mechanic of rolling 1d20 and adding modifiers to beat a target number is the definition of a d20 game.

You took a chocolate chip cookie, and replaced the chocolate with raisins. You might think that is a minor difference in the recipe, and it is, but you can't call it a chocolate chip cookie anymore.

As long as your players know what they are getting into and decided themselves to give it a try, then it's all well and good.

For me personally, whether I would give someone's homebrew rule system a try or not would entirely depend on my relationship with said person. If I was looking for a new game with strangers, it'd be a hard pass. If one of my regular gaming buddies said they've been working on this homebrew and ask if I'm interested in trying it, I'd be all in.

[Mudfoot]

Using a single d10 instead of a single d20 doesn't really change anything except halve the range of the die. If you halve the modifiers (in practice throwing a lot of the complexity away) that's fine. A bit pointless and quite a lot of work, but fine.

OTOH, if you keep everything else the same but use a d10 instead, balance goes out of the window, especially at anything approaching highish level.

Before messing about with the maths, do the calculations. The d20 isn't used just because it looks kewl. It's there, and so are the modifiers, for sound mathematical reasons.

[Phantasmist]

Funny thing is I thought about doing this before, I even gave it a shot with a test group and one play session. In my case I replaced the d20 with a d30. I won't go into the reasons why, lets just say if you investigate the math the d30 has advantages.

In any case I made many notes about the change and it didn't effect gameplay as much as you might think. But, the test-player's all kinda shrugged, they didn't see why the change. None of them thought it ruined the game, they just found it pointless. I guess it was lost on them. Anyway to me the ogl is classes, feats, skills, the fantasy setting, elves (dwarves, gnomes), open mutliclassing & and lots of crunchy rules. Not a d20. Seems like others disagree.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I've never touched any die except d6 (because board games). All other rolling has been done via online randomizers, for which you can even roll impossible dice.

So, honestly, if there's any wrongness to the situation it's that I'm using a physical product.

[DeathQuaker]

The question is not so much of whether the type of die is sacred, but does it produce results that keep the game fun?

If it works for you and your players agree to it, go for it.

[GotAFarmYet?]

So whats wrong with the D10?
if it is used to roll a percentage it can still work. After all a D20 is a 5% chance per number 5%-100%
Few games where based on that as well a percent chance, and that is all the roll is

So I would play along, reason I was playing was had nothing else planned that day anyways

[KahnyaGnorc]

I could see bonuses and penalties becoming stronger, as the number variance is halved.
Auto-miss and Auto-hit become more common (10% chance each, rather than 5%)
A higher crit threat range becomes even more powerful (basically, you get Keen/Imp Crit baked in to the system)

[Sysryke]

Ultimately I feel like a lot more questions have to be answered. Mostly the why and the how of the switch to d10. If it creates an interesting mechanic or has a strong thematic purpose, I'm in. Just wanting something different though isn't a good reason.

I will say that I haven't cared for percentile based systems I've played, but that probably had more to do with poor system edits. Dice size progression is interesting; and White Wolf's story teller system isn't terrible once you get the hang of it.

This next bit will be blasphemy to many. If I'm not playing Pathfinder/D&D, my favorite mechanical system is the diceless generation of the Marvel Universe Role-playing game. Editing needed a bit of help, and random chance is difficult to factor without dice; but character creation is limitless, and role playing and story telling are arguably better encouraged. I'm still loyal to the original table top system and its progeny, but when I branch out, MURPG is very nice.