Hi all ! My group is going to play the Rise of the Drow campaign (which is supposed to go from level 1 to 20) and I thought I'd try to play a Warpriest. I chose Desna mostly for flavor, I know there's probably better deities for that but she sounded appealing. Also, please, don't spoil anything if you know the campaign. I can appreciate pointers like "you shouldn't take that in this campaign", just don't tell me why if it's a spoiler.
So, here's what I got so far (20 point buy):
Human Warpriest
STR 16
DEX 15
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 13 (+2 Human)
CHA 10
Levels : +1 WIS, +4STR
Traits
Fate's favored (fits with Desna)
Ancestral Weapon (weapon of my mother when she was adventuring/pirating)
OR
Second Chance (fits with Desna)
Human......................Imp Shield Bash
Warpriest..................Weap Focus (Scimitar or Cutlass?)
3.................................Weap Foc (Shield)
Bonus Combat.........Shield Foc
5.................................Stumbling Bash
6 Bonus Combat......Dirty Fighting
Human Combat.......Improved Trip
7.................................Greater Trip
9.................................Toppling Bash
Bonus Combat.........Improved Crit (drop if Keen Weap)
11...............................Shield Slam
12 Bonus Combat....Shield Master
Human Combat........Tripping Strike
13...............................Critical Focus
15...............................Bashing Finish
Bonus Combat.........Shield Master
17...............................Sickening Crit (or Crit Versatility for Sickening or Blinding later)
18 Bonus Combat....Stunning Crit
Human Combat........?
19................................Crit Mastery
Other feats that caught my eye
Combat Reflexes
Quicken BLessing (x2?)
Pin Down
Divine Interference
Fury's Fall
Outlfank (?)
Seize the Moment (if Swash goes Crit)
Gear
I don't know if we'll be able to customize our gear at cities etc. or if we'll have to do with what we find. I thought about going Cutlass or Scimitar (I guess Kukri could work too, allowing me a Heavy Shield ?), heavy armor (prob Full Plate since even with 15 DEX, I don't think there's anything better) and Light Shield.
My thought process
I started wanting to go more on the tanky side since we apparently will have an Arcanist and a Swashbuckler with us (probably a tbd 4th too). Shield bashing seemed kinda fun, and a way to pile up the damage with Sacred Weapon. plus I noticed that there was a way to generate more bash with crits, so why not go a bit for a crit weapon/build. Finally, I had a bit a room, and noticed that there was a way to combine bashing and tripping, so... there we you have it.
My interrogations
With no bonus CON and most of favored class bonus going to feats, I feel like I could be a bit squishy for a frontliner
Some of the feats that are not in the build still seem kinda essential (namely Quicken Blessing and Combat Reflexes), and I feel that if I'm to get them, the earlier the better, but that will slow down the rest of the build. Plus, I don't know what to give up for those...
Is there a more optimal way to accomplish this (order of the feats, or feats that aren't that useful or on the contrary feats I forgot to take ?
Sorry for the lengthy post, but thanks in advance for you help !
You are going to want WAY more Constitution... don't settle for anything less than a 14.
You are going to want to have more than just Combat Feats. However, Combat Reflexes should definitely be one of them.
Trip is overrated and probably not worth the investment.
You are going to want WAY more Constitution... don't settle for anything less than a 14.
You are going to want to have more than just Combat Feats. However, Combat Reflexes should definitely be one of them.
Problem is, I also need high STR, 15 DEX for TWF, and 16 Wis for spells, so that leaves me a bit short on points. Maybe Toughness would help there (even though I don't really like this feat). Also, our rules for level up is 1/2 the die + CON instead of rolling.
Combat Reflexes would again require high DEX too, sooo that leaves me with the same problem as above.
Trip is overrated and probably not worth the investment.
Is it ? I never played with it, so I don't really know. I moslty intended to use it to provoke AoO (and also maybe help other to hit).
Not a spoiler, because I have never played or read the campaign you will be playing, but I'm going to assume that Rise of the Drow has actual Drow in it...
Therefore, boost your Constitution to stand a chance against POISON!!!
Also, good luck tripping a Drider.
Thank you guys for your answers. Pretty sure the campaign will indeed have drows in it ;) Didn't considered the poison saves though, you have a good point.
The problem with TWF is that sure, I'll gladly take it in order to have better attacks with bashing/using my weapon, but it's also a prerequisite for Shield Master. You'd advise me to drop all of this altogether ? So then I'll only use my shield bash during iterative attacks ?
If you design your own weapon, you could dual-wield 1d2 19-20/x4 weapons, and your Sacred Weapon brings the damage up to 1d6. Save up your coin for two +1 and Keen enchants, and you could be rocking two 1d8+1 17-20/x4 weapons by level 6.
Go as a Dex Warpriest and get Weapon Finesse with your level 1 feat and Exotic Weap Proficiency with your Human bonus feat.
Here's how to do it:
Exotic One-hand Weapons can have up to 10 Design Points. Give it the Fragile and Lesser Damage qualities to gain an additional +2 DP. With 12 DP, you could increase the Crit Multiplier to x4 for 9 DP, and increase the Threat Range to 19-20 for 3DP. So the weapon would be 1d2 dmg (Slashing), 19-20/x4 crit, but your Sacred Weapon automatically brings the damage up to 1d6 at level 1.
You should have 2 non-enchanted backup weapons in case you roll a 1 (due to fragile quality).
Hey, thanks a lot for all the adivces ! I don,t think we'll be allowed to craft entire weapons using the points system, so I'll be stuck using whatever weapons are on the SRD.
After all your comments I'm contemplating going as a DEX warpriest but how would that work ? staying in medium armor and forgoing heavy ? And stat-wise, would something like that be decent
13
16 (include Human's +2)
14
10
15
10
And I guess I'll forgo the Trip part of the build to get the Dex feats (Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace and possibly ITWF and GTWF ?) Using a light shield and a Kukri would allo me to use Weapon Finesse, but I wouldn't be able to add my DEX to my shield damage though.
Starry grace won't be useful if I'm using a shield sadly.
You only count as a Fighter and as having full BAB for your bonus feats, not for regular feats.
Second Chance (fits with Desna)
That's actually a trait of a Halfling deity. See here for the proper version.
And I guess I'll forgo the Trip part of the build to get the Dex feats (Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace and possibly ITWF and GTWF ?) Using a light shield and a Kukri would allo me to use Weapon Finesse, but I wouldn't be able to add my DEX to my shield damage though.
Starry grace won't be useful if I'm using a shield sadly.
Slashing Grace also doesn't work with a shield (or any kind of TWF in general). Two-Weapon Grace helps there (and even adds half dex to the shield's damage rolls), but increases the penalties (even for a shield with Shield Master).
You can gain shield bashes, not as well though, without TWF, and even then they aren’t that worth the investment.
Alright, after all these discussions, it feels like there isn't a good way to do this with these parameters. I guess a 25 Point Buy would alleviate some of the problems (like getting 14 CON), or being a fighter and having no need for WIS. I know I could kinda do something by dropping a few feats, but the Ability Score issue would still be there, or the build wouldn't do what I wanted it to do, so... I'll just build something else !
Probably going to try a Reach Warpriest then, with area control and such, seems fun too. Maybe gonna try Shield Brace, seems a pretty fun feat, but not too sure about it yet (I feel like I'm risk trying to do too many thing at once again^^). Any advices on that ?
I guess I'll go standard Power Attack and Reach Feats, and if I got some spares, maybe Shield Brace. I also found the feat Difficult Swings... would you say it's useless if I get Pin Down ? The latter seems to make me a bit more sticky, but uses one of my few AoO (I'll start with 12-13 Dex, so 2 AoO, aiming to get a Dex belt at some point to increase this).
I'll probably use a Spiked Gauntlet or Spiked Armor to be able to push people away with Pushing Assault too.
I've already taken into account the Human Bonus Feats. And I considered dumping CHA but... idk, it's a dump stat in sooooo many builds or even character I played, and I wanted to try to do something else. Sure, if dumping CHA, I can get away with the original build (minus a few adjustments) and get 14 CON.
Same for the Chaplain. I was aware of it, but I wanted to keep the standard blessing mechanic. I can still get Difficult Swings if I take Martial Focus, but I'm still not sure about the value of this feat :/
About the actions part, I didn't know you couldn't convert a move to a swift or anything, we always ruled that you can convert a "higher cost" action to a "lower cost" one (Standard>Move>Swift>Free), but I'll bring that to the table next time, it sure changes things a bit if we apply the RAW from now on.
As far as a Dex Warpriest using Armor, your Dex at level 1 should be 18-20 (if you're going to take a Dex build seriously), so you could start with Studded Leather until you get enough coin for doing a +2 armor enchantment and a Belt of Dex +2/+4, then sell the Studded Leather and buy a +2 Haramaki and grab the Belt of Dex +2/+4 (w/e level you can afford). Haramaki is only +1 armor, but it has no maximum for Dex bonus, so this should be treated like your mid-end game armor. By the time you have enough for armor enchantments and a belt of dex, your Dex *should* be 22-26ish anyway, and that could happen as early as level 8ish with +2 Dex from levels and a +2 to +4 belt of Dex (you could get this much earlier if you wanted, but you'd be shirking your weapon enchants and other things you definitely need). You could even just start the game with a Haramaki and rely on Potions of Cat's Grace if you wanted, but I think gold-efficiency-wise it's better to just do the Studded Leather until level 8ish, keep your weapon enchantments on par (you will definitely want to pick up +1 and Agile enchant, and possibly Keen enchant if you're crit-fishing), and then transition into the Haramaki with +2 enchantment and Belt of Dex at level 8ish.
As far as going with a Shield or not, it depends on your group make-up. If you're expected to be tanking, then yes you'll definitely want to have a shield and keep it on par with enchantments. If you have a dedicated damage soaking melee, you can decide to also help soak damage, or go more of a damage role. So, if Shield, use a Scimitar, if you're going to damage, dual wield Kukri. Either way, I'd recommend getting TWF. Get Imp Shield Bash if you're using a shield, and if you're going to dual-wield Kukri, I'd recommend not getting Keen enchants and get Improved Critical feat instead.
Dex builds with lots of attacks from TWF and lots of feats scream Boots of Speed (Haste) and specializing in a Combat Maneuver to me. So if you're interested in doing a TWF Kukri Dex build, I'd recommend a Combat Reflexes/Greater Trip + Fortuitous Enchant build or going for a Quick Dirty Tricks ---> Dirty Tricks Master build. Either one will make you absolutely ferocious.
==============
I can help you create a build better if I know this: What is your party make-up and what role do you see yourself serving in this group? Also, is anyone in your party planning to do any unorthodox builds?
Hey, thanks a lot for those great advices ! As I said, TWF is more because it's a prerequisite rather than because I wanna use it. Unless I'm going full DEX build that is. I'm contemplating the idea of dumping Cha since I'm indeed spread pretty thin. I would rather not have to dump a stat, but maybe it's the right choice here.
I can help you create a build better if I know this: What is your party make-up and what role do you see yourself serving in this group? Also, is anyone in your party planning to do any unorthodox builds?
So far, the party composition hasn't changed from my original post : we have an Arcanist, a swashbuckler and an undetermined third, plus me. So so far, it seems like I will have to be the front line tanky one. That why I was trying to go for Shield (for tankyness) and Trip (for area control). Shield Bashing was to get more Trip possibility and a bit of versatility and damage. Crit was the same idea (that's why I picked it up late)
EDIT : I came up with this Reach build too, to try to correct some of the flaws of my original build. It doesn't do the same thing, but maybe that's a better way to accomplish what I'm trying to do ?
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 15
CHA 10
Levels +1 WIS +4 STR (or maybe +1 WIS, +1 DEX, +3 STR
Human......................Pushing Assault
Warpriest..................Weapon Focus (Guisarm ?)
3.................................Combat Reflexes
Bonus Combat.........Weapon Focus (Spiked Armor)(Shield Focus)
5.................................Dodge (Shield Brace)
6 Bonus Combat......Mobility (Shielded Movement)
Human Combat.......Combat Patrol
7.................................Stand Still (Improved Shield Bash)
9.................................Dirty fighting (Stand Still)
Bonus Combat.........Greater Weapon Focus (Guisarm ?)
11...............................Quicken Blessing
12 Bonus Combat....Pin Down
Human Combat........Imp Trip (Missile Shield)
13...............................Greater Trip (Quicken Blessing)
15...............................
Bonus Combat.........
17...............................
18 Bonus Combat....
Human Combat........
19................................
I saw to way to do this, hence the parenthesis. I feel like the shield one would be better than the Trip one though, even though Spiked armor sounds fun. I also leaves me some rooms for other feats, like maybe Divine Interference, Weapon Specialization, Improved Init or even Toughness (maybe Whirlwind Attack).
I guess a 25 Point Buy would alleviate some of the problems (like getting 14 CON), or being a fighter and having no need for WIS.
The usual way to make TWF work is to a) get low investment dex-to-damage with both weapons (unRogue or Agile handwraps or AoMF), or b) to ignore the dex prereq of these feats (via Ranger combat style, the respective Slayer talent, the Shield of Fury Vigilante talent, or the Sanguine Angel prestige class).
Regarding the reach build: I really don't see Combat Patrol as even remotely worth it. The reach stuff is more of a secondary focus, not your main shtick.
If you're expected to be tanking
If you're planning on tanking
There is no such think as "tanking" in Pathfinder. The act of tanking describes making enemies attack you, someway; something almost impossible to reliably do. You could build a tank (which is simplay a character who's mainly focussed on defense), but with almost no tools to make enemies attack you, that only makes you less useful.
Just having decent AC (or decent defenses in general) is not "tanking" (nor does it make you a tank). Just standing in front is not "tanking", that's called "standing in front".
About Quicken Blessing, I know it becomes a Swift Action and I might be starved of those, it's just that it allows me some flexibility ? If I have the time, I can use them as a standard action, but if using it is my best choice at the moment, I can use it as a swift.
I know there's no such thing as tanking in Pathfinder, but I feel like the reach build would be close to that, preventing enemies to get past me the best I can ; that would also be the reason behind Trip, but I'll wait to see how it could work atound level 10 in our campaign (if we're facing too much big, or un-trippable enemies, I won't take it).
Comabt Patrol is about that too, giving me a bigger area of control, but I'm also not sure how it'll work.
Thx for the advices about TWF builds btw !
Also,
Which Blessing are you planning on going with?
Desna has some very nice blessings to choose from. My favorites are Liberation & Luck.
Was thinking of Luck and Good (Travel and Liberation sounded good too, but I kinda like the idea of summoning a thingy to fight alongside me :) )
(Sorry for the double post, couldn't seem to edit my previous one)
EDIT : I just realized though that Luck's Major Blessing wouldn't get much use in a Reach build... :/ Maybe I'm better off giving up on Luck if I'm going that way ? (even though the minor one is still good)
Yeah, I thought Liberation was pretty nice too, but seemed somewhat too... circumstantial ? I falls in the category of thing were if I need them, I'll be really glad I have it, but most of the time, it feels like it won't do anything :/
If I'm reading this correctly though, feels like it would indeed negate the Grappled condition :
you can ignore impediments to your mobility and effects that cause paralysis (as freedom of movement)and Freedom of Movement
All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail
The big question would be : Can you yourself initiate a Grapple even while under the effect of this, but that's a question that have already been debated in other threads.
Also, UPDATE : our swashbuckler seems to say that he'll go more on the tankier side than the damage side, but that he'll mainly be a face. We are apparently also getting an Arcane Trickster as a fourth and/or maybe a Summoner (apparently, we might have a 5th player). So I guess if we get a summoner, I could go more on the damage side of things but I still guess that 14 CON is a no-brainer at this point, so I guess reach build might be were I'll go.
Hum, nice, forgot about Difficult Terrain, I'll consider it. Since I'd rather play as a human (for fluff purposes), I'll leave the Dorn-Dergar aside, but my GM athorized me to take a feat from D&D 3.5, Short Haft, which allows me to do basically the same but as a Swift Action (which... isn't great, I know).
But that's why I'm going the route with Shield Brace and Improved Shield Bash, this'll give me a way to threaten the adjascent squares. I guess I might invest 50 GP into armor spikes until it come online though. I just also realize, to my great displeasure, that Warpriest starts with 0 BAB, so I have to review my feat order since I can't get Pushin Assault or Power Attack at level 1^^'
I seem to remember that when retraining, you should still be able to qualify for the feats at the level for which you take them (so even if I'm level 10, I wouldn't be able to retrain my level 1 feats as Power Attack for exemple).
Not sure I get why retraining would give me more HP though ?
I seem to remember that when retraining, you should still be able to qualify for the feats at the level for which you take them
The only restriction stated in the retraining rules is "The old feat can’t be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability." UCamp pg. 191
Not sure I get why retraining would give me more HP though ?
"Retraining hit points takes 3 days and requires you to spend time at a martial academy, monk monastery, or with some kind of master of combat who is at least one level higher than you. At the end of the training period, increase your hit points by 1. You can retrain hit points only if your maximum hit point total is less than the maximum possible hit point total for your character." ibid.
Thanks, I stand corrected ! The clause about class feature bonus feat was what I was thinking about, but I went and re-read it this morning and it indeed would work. I absolutely didn't know about the HP retraining, it seems pretty costly and time consuming but I might give it a try if we have some downtime and the GM allows it (since we always get 1/2 HD on level up, idk if she would allow us to increase that, but I think she'll be open at the idea).
Feat-wise, for a 2h reach build, after taking all of the necessary things, where would you go ?I don't think Vital Strike would be good, since I would base my playstyle on AoOs. I looked a bit at the Style and Tricks feats, but nothing really interesting popped up. As someone pointed out, I think Trip is out of the window since at level 12+ it seems to fall off. So I'm left a bit wandering about where to go. I'll have some reach shenanigans, some basic shield bash things to push/stop people who get into my reach, and then... ?
I already read the guide yeah. It suggest that Switch Hitter would be the natural way to go for a 2H, but since I'm more on the reach/ battlefield control, I can't really swap my weapon for a bow or something, especially once I'll be using a shield with it. Vital Strike could help, but only in situation where I'll want to advance, and I feel like most of the time, my goal would be to stand in the way and wait for enemies to provoke, rather than go to them. But I guess for 1-3 feats, I could take it. Maybe with spring attack, for when I need to reposition (get in, strike, then fall back a bit to defend and wait).
I was also looking at the Swift Iron Style feats, but not sure it's worth it ? (with a breastplate or something like that)
I didn't know about the Variant Channeling, I love discovering new options ! I went there and read a bit, but since I'm a worshipper of Desna, there're not a lot of interesting options : Chaos, Good, Travel or Liberation don't seem to exist, at least on the SRD and Luck doesn't feel that strong. Are there any other sources for those ?
I also found Dream (which is underwhelming too), but am I suppose to look for portfolios or domains ? And am I restricted to the 2 domains I chose for my blessings ?
I'll check that out, but I think for Desna, I'll just save the feat for something better
Hey, thanks a lot for those great advices ! As I said, TWF is more because it's a prerequisite rather than because I wanna use it. Unless I'm going full DEX build that is. I'm contemplating the idea of dumping Cha since I'm indeed spread pretty thin. I would rather not have to dump a stat, but maybe it's the right choice here.
I can help you create a build better if I know this: What is your party make-up and what role do you see yourself serving in this group? Also, is anyone in your party planning to do any unorthodox builds?So far, the party composition hasn't changed from my original post : we have an Arcanist, a swashbuckler and an undetermined third, plus me. So so far, it seems like I will have to be the front line tanky one. That why I was trying to go for Shield (for tankyness) and Trip (for area control). Shield Bashing was to get more Trip possibility and a bit of versatility and damage. Crit was the same idea (that's why I picked it up late)
EDIT : I came up with this Reach build too, to try to correct some of the flaws of my original build. It doesn't do the same thing, but maybe that's a better way to accomplish what I'm trying to do ?
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
If you're going for battlefield control and high AC, I'd recommend a shield and a Trip or Dirty Tricks build.
I'll be able to get a shield at level 6 ; getting it earlier would mean delaying Pushing Assault until level 6. Am I mistaken in thinking that Pushing Assault is more important ?
The problem I encountered with maneuvers is that at the earliest, I'll be able to get them around level 12 (level 9 top), and they seem to start to fall off at that level. CMD at level 12 seems to be around 34 ; my CMB at that level, assuming 18 STR(+4), Enlarge(+1), +1 Weapon, a belt of Str (+1) would be around 16, 18 with Improved Maneuver, realisticly 20-22 with buffs. This seems like a pretty low chance of success, especially since CMD seems to increase exponentially. Would you say they are still worth it since the campaign is supposed to strech up to level 20 ?
My party seems to be finalized, we'll be an Elf Aracanist, a Half-Orc Ranger (archery focused), a Catfolk Swashbuckler (face more on the tanky side), a Human Rogue/Arcane Trickster(we seem to have picked up a fifth^^) and me, a Human Warpriest of Desna
My updated Feat list:
Human......................Stand Still
Warpriest..................Weapon Focus (Guisarm)
3.................................Power Attack
Bonus Combat.........Pushing Assault
5.................................Shield Focus
6 Bonus Combat......Shield Brace
Human Combat.......Shield Movement
7.................................Combat Patrol / Imp Shield Bash
9.................................Imp Shield Bash / Combat Patrol
Bonus Combat.........Greater Weapon Focus (Guisarm)
11...............................Quicken Blessing
12 Bonus Combat....Pin Down
Human Combat........Missile Shield ?
13...............................Quicken Blessing
15...............................
Bonus Combat.........
17...............................
18 Bonus Combat....
Human Combat........
19................................
Just be careful, I'm not sure how Combat Patrol is more specific than the general rule of AoO, but if allies or anything provides soft cover, you can't execute AoO, you need Phalanx Formation for that.
Also remember, that soft cover provides +4 AC to enemies you're trying to hit.
From my reading you're only allowed to make more AoO, but the feat doesn't make you qualify for them automatically.
Edit, rule referenced:
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.
Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.