Hi all! I'm looking for official answer about "Vestigial Arm" discovery. In this threat I cannot find answer: can the alchemist with two Vestigial Arm use two weapon fight using two two-handed weapons?
For example, 1 round:
attack with falchion at right hand and right vestigial arm
attack with greataxe at left (off hand) hand and left vestigial arm?
Only 2 two-handed weapons in 4 hands! This is legal?
Sorry for my English ;)
They can't. The creators pointedly ruled in the past that vestigial arms do not give you any more actions. Wielding a 2 handed weapon is 2 hands worth of actions; wielding 2 of them would make 4. You could wield a weapon in each hand and a shield in another one. You could have a 4th weapon but you couldn't use all of them in a single Full Attack. You could keep a long sword in 1 hand, a Rapier in 1 and a light mace in your 3rd as you battle a mixed group of skeletons and zombies, picking and choosing which weapons for bypassing DR.
So... Character cannot equip 2 handed weapon in main and vestigial arm and manipulate it?
2 handed weapon needs two main (native) hands?
He is saying that is that if you make an attack with a two-handed weapon, you are considered using your offhand for that attack. This is why you are not allowed use spiked armor or similar to two weapon fight with a 2h weapon. You can hold two two-handed weapons and swap which you attack with during a full-attack action. But in most cases you are not allowed to add off-hand attacks with TWF when you are using a two-hand.
He is saying that is that if you make an attack with a two-handed weapon, you are considered using your offhand for that attack. This is why you are not allowed use spiked armor or similar to two weapon fight with a 2h weapon. You can hold two two-handed weapons and swap which you attack with during a full-attack action. But in most cases you are not allowed to add off-hand attacks with TWF when you are using a two-hand.
It's a pity =( Thanks!
He is saying that is that if you make an attack with a two-handed weapon, you are considered using your offhand for that attack. This is why you are not allowed use spiked armor or similar to two weapon fight with a 2h weapon. You can hold two two-handed weapons and swap which you attack with during a full-attack action. But in most cases you are not allowed to add off-hand attacks with TWF when you are using a two-hand.
To be clear for the OP if you normally have two attacks you can attack once with each two handed weapon. So you don't get any extra attacks for multiple arms. Which by the sounds of it is what they are trying to do.
He is saying that is that if you make an attack with a two-handed weapon, you are considered using your offhand for that attack. This is why you are not allowed use spiked armor or similar to two weapon fight with a 2h weapon. You can hold two two-handed weapons and swap which you attack with during a full-attack action. But in most cases you are not allowed to add off-hand attacks with TWF when you are using a two-hand.To be clear for the OP if you normally have two attacks you can attack once with each two handed weapon. So you don't get any extra attacks for multiple arms. Which by the sounds of it is what they are trying to do.
No, no, no!
Me interesting, can the alchemist with two vestigial hands take (equip) two two-handed weapon and attack with they?Can I use dual (TWF) fighting with two two-handed weapon, using for this vestigial hands?
For example: Can I took in the right hand and the right vestigial hand first weapon, and can I took in the left hand and the left vestigial hand second weapon? After, can I use TWF feat to attack from two weapons at one round?
He is saying that is that if you make an attack with a two-handed weapon, you are considered using your offhand for that attack. This is why you are not allowed use spiked armor or similar to two weapon fight with a 2h weapon. You can hold two two-handed weapons and swap which you attack with during a full-attack action. But in most cases you are not allowed to add off-hand attacks with TWF when you are using a two-hand.To be clear for the OP if you normally have two attacks you can attack once with each two handed weapon. So you don't get any extra attacks for multiple arms. Which by the sounds of it is what they are trying to do.No, no, no!
Me interesting, can the alchemist with two vestigial hands take (equip) two two-handed weapon and attack with they?
Can I use dual (TWF) fighting with two two-handed weapon, using for this vestigial hands?For example: Can I took in the right hand and the right vestigial hand first weapon, and can I took in the left hand and the left vestigial hand second weapon? After, can I use TWF feat to attack from two weapons at one round?
No.
If you have 4 arms and the two weapon fighting feat, you should be able to wield and attack with 2, 2 handed weapons. They would both be at a -4 to hit, so it might look and sound kind of cool, but your accuracy will be terrible.
2 native hand (orc for example) and 2 "Vestigial Arm" discovery from alchemist...
Vestigial Arm (Ex)
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
No.He is saying that is that if you make an attack with a two-handed weapon, you are considered using your offhand for that attack. This is why you are not allowed use spiked armor or similar to two weapon fight with a 2h weapon. You can hold two two-handed weapons and swap which you attack with during a full-attack action. But in most cases you are not allowed to add off-hand attacks with TWF when you are using a two-hand.To be clear for the OP if you normally have two attacks you can attack once with each two handed weapon. So you don't get any extra attacks for multiple arms. Which by the sounds of it is what they are trying to do.No, no, no!
Me interesting, can the alchemist with two vestigial hands take (equip) two two-handed weapon and attack with they?
Can I use dual (TWF) fighting with two two-handed weapon, using for this vestigial hands?For example: Can I took in the right hand and the right vestigial hand first weapon, and can I took in the left hand and the left vestigial hand second weapon? After, can I use TWF feat to attack from two weapons at one round?
Ok. Thanks!
It would work if the discovery didn’t also specify that it doesn’t give you any more attacks. If you simply got an extra arm with no limitations, then you’d be able to do something like multi weapon fighting.
From the multiweapon fighting feat:
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
It would work if the discovery didn’t also specify that it doesn’t give you any more attacks. If you simply got an extra arm with no limitations, then you’d be able to do something like multi weapon fighting.
From the multiweapon fighting feat:
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
My example doesn't multiattack, because native hand take and make attack, and vestigial hand help native hand to take two-handed weapon.
My question is: can I take two-handed weapon in the native right hand and vestigial right hand, and second two-handed weapon in the native left hand and vestigial left hand, and after this - use two-weapon fighting feat to make two two-handed attack in one round! =)Lemartes say: "No!"
You have two metaphorical "hands" you can attack with, no matter how many actual hands you have.
Attacking with a two-handed weapon requires two metaphorical hands.
You can use your extra hands for other stuff, but not for attacking.
That's as simple as I can say it.
(from a game design perspective, an alchemist's discovery is about the same as a feat. Look at Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Cleave...and then look at Vestigial Arm. If the arm just gave you another attack or let you use multiple large weapons, it would be way, WAY better than all those other options.)
The metaphorical hands only matter for two weapon fighting. An extra hand that’s not limited would let you use multiweapon fighting instead. But the alchemist hand is limited, so it doesn’t work.
You have two metaphorical "hands" you can attack with, no matter how many actual hands you have.
Attacking with a two-handed weapon requires two metaphorical hands.
You can use your extra hands for other stuff, but not for attacking.
That's as simple as I can say it.
(from a game design perspective, an alchemist's discovery is about the same as a feat. Look at Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Cleave...and then look at Vestigial Arm. If the arm just gave you another attack or let you use multiple large weapons, it would be way, WAY better than all those other options.)
Thanks, I understand now!
I thinked this is legal. Looks very interesting have two attack with two-handed weapon per round! But... Ok =(
Pathfinder introduced this absolutely asinine concept of "handedness" or "hands' worth" of attack or actions or whatever...
It is a completely arbitrary and unreasonable system specifically designed to make it so martials can't have nice things. Like the four-armed playable race they put in the game being able to do anything cool except miss twice as much with TWO bows. Or anyone TWF/greatsword/armor spikes.
So, in order to attack with any 2H weapon, it takes two "hands' worth" of whatever the f!ck and that's all you get no matter how many hands you have.
Whoever designed the system hopefully stubs their toe every morning for the rest of their miserable life.
What pile of bologna.
It would work if the discovery didn’t also specify that it doesn’t give you any more attacks. If you simply got an extra arm with no limitations, then you’d be able to do something like multi weapon fighting.
From the multiweapon fighting feat:
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.My example doesn't multiattack, because native hand take and make attack, and vestigial hand help native hand to take two-handed weapon.
My question is: can I take two-handed weapon in the native right hand and vestigial right hand, and second two-handed weapon in the native left hand and vestigial left hand, and after this - use two-weapon fighting feat to make two two-handed attack in one round! =)Lemartes say: "No!"
And so do I.
There are a lot of other ways to get more attacks, and there are 1 or 2 ways to make those attacks do more damage. Which 2 two-handed weapons were you hoping to use?
I hoped to use at this build 2 falchion (because 18-20 crit threat can increased to 15-20), or 2 axe butchering (3d6 for one)... Or mix it!!! =)
Bloodrager (Abyssal) / alchemist multiclass looks so interesting to use 4 hands to TWF with two two-handed weapon =)
Have you looked into the Kasatha race?
They start with 4 arms.
Have you looked into the Kasatha race?
They start with 4 arms.
WOW! Can Kasatha use twf for two two-handed weapon? 0_0 Or this is question about TWF feat?
Nope.
Kasatha can still only fight exactly like people with two hands except for a really lame Ranger archetype for dual wielding bows at even worse penalties.
I just wanted to show you the Kasatha so you can see how stupid the PF1 "hands' worth" nonsense is.
Nope.
Kasatha can still only fight exactly like people with two hands except for a really lame Ranger archetype for dual wielding bows at even worse penalties.
I just wanted to show you the Kasatha so you can see how stupid the PF1 "hands' worth" nonsense is.
Oh.... I'm crying! My hope is dead =(
I don't think it was ever really clarified what Kasatha could and couldn't do, in terms of if they had the same hands of effort restriction that normal two armed PCs did.
I would ask your GM how they feel about it. Maybe they'll let you do what you want with Alchemist or Kasatha.
However, if I were your GM I would tell you no on either. It's not balanced compared to what other martial characters can do. And while it's not as powerful as what spell caster can do, the game doesn't need to create more imbalance. I have house rules that attempt to reign in casters.
I don't think it was ever really clarified what Kasatha could and couldn't do, in terms of if they had the same hands of effort restriction that normal two armed PCs did.
I would ask your GM how they feel about it. Maybe they'll let you do what you want with Alchemist or Kasatha.
However, if I were your GM I would tell you no on either. It's not balanced compared to what other martial characters can do. And while it's not as powerful as what spell caster can do, the game doesn't need to create more imbalance. I have house rules that attempt to reign in casters.
It wasn't you'll have people screaming for both ways in any thread about it and the best I ever got from the Devs was basically that 4 armed races would throw the balance of two-handed weapons, two-weapon fighting, shields, and more out of wack in comparison to any other options and was told to either leave them out or house-rule it. Which lends some credence to the theory that more than 2 arms means something in relation to rules besides just having more things equipped.
From the Titan Mauler Barbarian Archetype:
Two Large Weapons with each hand. Not four arms and not at all accurate but sorta what you want. :)
Jotungrip (Ex)
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Or just go Summoner and have a Eidolon with hands that can wield weapons and you both just smack people with an Axe each. Flanks and stuff. It's like two weapon fighting on steroids. :)
It wasn't you'll have people screaming for both ways in any thread about it and the best I ever got from the Devs was basically that 4 armed races would throw the balance of two-handed weapons, two-weapon fighting, shields, and more out of wack in comparison to any other options and was told to either leave them out or house-rule it. Which lends some credence to the theory that more than 2 arms means something in relation to rules besides just having more things equipped.I don't think it was ever really clarified what Kasatha could and couldn't do, in terms of if they had the same hands of effort restriction that normal two armed PCs did.
I would ask your GM how they feel about it. Maybe they'll let you do what you want with Alchemist or Kasatha.
However, if I were your GM I would tell you no on either. It's not balanced compared to what other martial characters can do. And while it's not as powerful as what spell caster can do, the game doesn't need to create more imbalance. I have house rules that attempt to reign in casters.
Yeah. I think the answer was basically the Devs saying, "Well logically Kasatha probably should get to wield two two-handed weapons, but it's not balanced against any other option and would definitely break things as it is."
I mean, imagine a Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest or an Inquisitor dual wielding two-handed weapons and two weapon fighting. Worse yet, Kasatha should probably qualify for Multiweapon fighting (and people like to project getting full iterative attackss with all arms) and having them wield 4 finesse agile weapons. Because those two classes can get huge static damage bonuses it would be absolutely insane.
I think the balance issue is less "how dare you say a four-armed guy can't use all four arms" and more "...don't let people make characters with four arms".
Seriously. How do you even give the pretext of balance to a dwarf who wields a big pole axe and a six-armed praying mantis monk and an awakened giant octopus rogue? You just can't. Mathematical superiority is inevitable. It's addition versus multiplication.
Maybe bringing ECL value back would help, but I think the best thing you can do is define the sort of game you're playing. The scope of "anything and everything" is too big, messy and crazy. Like when you play Rifts and you end up with a party of: a martial arts master, a space marine, a mech pilot and a private detective. You need some structure, or your game will end up like a rummage sale at the Star Wars cantina.
The hands of effort only applies to two weapon fighting. If you aren’t two weapon fighting, they don’t matter. If you have 4 fully functional arms you can attack with all of them as written under multiweapon fighting.
There are ways to get extra arms. Polymorphing is the most obvious.
The hands of effort only applies to two weapon fighting. If you aren’t two weapon fighting, they don’t matter. If you have 4 fully functional arms you can attack with all of them as written under multiweapon fighting.
There are ways to get extra arms. Polymorphing is the most obvious.
As far as I know, even if you have 4 fully functional, natural arms... you still can't TWF with 2H weapons, even with Multiweapon Fighting... even though you have the "handedness" fully covered...
Your main hand has two hands on a 2H weapon, and your off-hand has two hands on a 2H weapon... TWF, here we come!
But no, you apparently still don't have enough "hands' worth of whatever" to actually swing both swords using your four arms...
It's stupid.
Whoever published a 4-armed playable race without accounting for this is quite feasibly blind and or illiterate... otherwise the glaringly obvious pattern involving playable characters and the number of arms would have presented itself long before the attempt was made to publish the Kasatha.
How it got past the editing staff, I don't know.
Four arms should be able to wield a two handed weapon as a “main hand”. There just aren’t rules for using a two handed weapon as an off hand.
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Pretty sure Melkiador is the only one here who's got it right. Under normal circumstances, you get one attack with each hand you have (albeit with massive penalties, but that's where TWF and Multiweapon Fighting feats come into play). And there is precedent for a four-armed creature dual-wielding two-handed weapons: Metweska from Iron Gods, who uses two chainsaws.
What rules do you want or need?
You have a 2H weapon in your main hand. Full stop.
You have two hands on the 2H weapon in your main hand. Full stop.
You have a 2H weapon in your off-hand. Full stop.
You have two hands on the 2H weapon in your off-hand. Full stop.
Assuming you weren't a moron and crisscrossed your arms, you can TWF exactly as a normal person... without any additional rules.
What multiplier gets added to the off-hand? 2H multiplier or off-hand multiplier? Probably off-hand, given that it's still an off-hand attack, and to at least try add some semblance of balance.
Ok. There's the one extra rule we needed. Full speed ahead.
Nope. Not allowed because "hands' worth" of BULL$#!+...
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The hands of effort only applies to two weapon fighting. If you aren’t two weapon fighting, they don’t matter. If you have 4 fully functional arms you can attack with all of them as written under multiweapon fighting.
There are ways to get extra arms. Polymorphing is the most obvious.
As far as I know, even if you have 4 fully functional, natural arms... you still can't TWF with 2H weapons, even with Multiweapon Fighting... even though you have the "handedness" fully covered...
Your main hand has two hands on a 2H weapon, and your off-hand has two hands on a 2H weapon... TWF, here we come!
But no, you apparently still don't have enough "hands' worth of whatever" to actually swing both swords using your four arms...
It's stupid.
Whoever published a 4-armed playable race without accounting for this is quite feasibly blind and or illiterate... otherwise the glaringly obvious pattern involving playable characters and the number of arms would have presented itself long before the attempt was made to publish the Kasatha.
How it got past the editing staff, I don't know.
Just want to throw two points out there:
1. Paizo published a Kasatha NPC in the Iron Gods AP that uses two weapon fighting with a pair of two-handed chainsaws.
2. Unless you're playing PFS, you can completely ignore this ruling and run things however your table likes.
In my games, if someone wants to invest in getting two Vestigial Arms, I'm happy to let them swing around their pair of greatswords or whatever.
Pathfinder introduced this absolutely asinine concept of "handedness" or "hands' worth" of attack or actions or whatever...I don't think Paizo "introduced" it exactly. I think it emerged as they introduced things like Vestigial Arm and Tentacle, and then made rulings to limit them, then accidental conceits like "2 hands's worth of actions" emerged, as did the difference between Natural Weapons and Natural Attacks, and Virtual Size increases that stack with actual Size increases but not with other VSI, meaning that the Bashing Enchantment doesn't stack with Shield Spikes.
That is quite the list of martials can't have nice things right there...
A familiar trend in the "conceits" that are always the first to be officially adopted.
PS. Nothing personal directed at you, Scott Wilhelm.
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In my games, if someone wants to invest in getting two Vestigial Arms, I'm happy to let them swing around their pair of greatswords or whatever.
Those discoveries have inbuilt limitations that have been reiterated in the FAQs, you are removing the limitations, making them more powerful.
Consider that you are adding arms to a creature with a nervous system born for managing 2 arms.Let's make a different example, just to see if you guys wanting to get extra attacks from having more arms would like it:
"I am a spellcaster with several spells that have somatic components only if I get 4 arms I can cast two of them at the same time? After all, the spellweaver can do that!"
That is exactly what you want.
The Kasatha shouldn't have been a playable race as it allows to play a race that naturally has 4 arms. Or it should have had an appropriate cost for that ability. Game balance wise it is a bad thing.
In my games, if someone wants to invest in getting two Vestigial Arms, I'm happy to let them swing around their pair of greatswords or whatever.Those discoveries have inbuilt limitations that have been reiterated in the FAQs, you are removing the limitations, making them more powerful.
Consider that you are adding arms to a creature with a nervous system born for managing 2 arms.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm doing. Or rather, I'm removing a limitation added to them by a FAQ that I disagree with.
As for the nervous system thing, I'm not inclined to worry about that kind of "realism" where fantasy magic is concerned. I imagine the magic that created the arms took care of that problem too.
Let's make a different example, just to see if you guys wanting to get extra attacks from having more arms would like it:
"I am a spellcaster with several spells that have somatic components only if I get 4 arms I can cast two of them at the same time? After all, the spellweaver can do that!"
That is exactly what you want.
Good job knocking down that Straw Man...
The Kasatha shouldn't have been a playable race as it allows to play a race that naturally has 4 arms. Or it should have had an appropriate cost for that ability. Game balance wise it is a bad thing.
I tend to agree the Kasatha shouldn't be a playable race in Pathfinder, but more because I don't like space aliens in my fantasy than for anything about their mechanics.
I tend to agree the Kasatha shouldn't be a playable race in Pathfinder, but more because I don't like space aliens in my fantasy than for anything about their mechanics.
Elves are too, though. And gnomes are extraplanar aliens.
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People keep repeating the no extra attacks thing...wielding 2 weapons would not be granting any extra attacks...all it is doing is allowing you to wield 2 larger weapons at the cost of larger penalties.
You can already essentially TWF with greatswords via Crusader's Flurry. 4+ levels of Warpriest + Unchained Monk...bam.
Which mechanically would be even better, since you wouldn't get the huge negatives, and you wouldn't have to pay for 2 enchanted greatswords.
Similar level of investment to get 2 alchemist discoveries worth of extra arms for an honestly inferior effect...plus I still fail to see how it is against the rules, since you are not getting any more attacks than you would if you were TWFing any other weapons.
You would just be at -6 main hand -10 off hand without the TWF feat, and -4 / -4 with the TWF feat since your off hand isn't light.
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If you want real shenanigans, go 4 levels of Warpriest of Yamatsumi, 1 level Unchained Monk, then go the rest in Titan Mauler Barbarian.
Wield a large, adamantine tetsubo with the impact enchantment on it, carry potions of enlarge person, and crusaders flurry with a 3d8 weapon that has a x4 crit multiplier.
You could alternately choose one of the deities with a scythe for their favored weapon, and do the same thing but with a 3d6 scythe instead of 3d8 tetsubo.
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Any flurry of blows when paired with the Crusader's Flurry feat will allow you to flurry with your patron deities favored weapon. I haven't scoured the official pantheons of Golarion, but surely there is a deity with Greatsword as their favored weapon.
Core Monk, and Unchained Monk work...there may even be some archetypes or prestige classes that give flurry of blows. Brawler's get a different version called Brawler's Flurry, which RAW would not work. In a home game I could see most GM's allowing it though, since they are basically the same ability.
You don't even need Warpriest...you can do it with Cleric, or anything that gives channel energy. Warpriest just happens to work particularly well since you get channel energy, weapon focus, and proficiency in your deities favored weapon as part of the class.