Actually there is one small piece of evidence that indicates that some civilizations in Stanfinder cannon do not let you wander around with heavy weapons and armor. The picture on page 55 of the Near Space book, shows a human / humanoid at some sort of Vesk controlled facility being scanned by a nervous looking skittermander. The 3 vesk pictured are in heavy armor and are looking over the human / humanoid intently.
The human/humanoid appears to have no weapons, and looks to be in light (freebooter) or no armor.
The human / humanoid is being scanned mostly likely for weapons, contraband and most likely magical ability.
I imagine that coming up with rules to govern how every different governmental entity deals with arms and armor would prove to be unworkable. I think it best be left in the hands of each GM to handle how each governmental entity deals with this issue.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually it might be interesting to write a scenario where level 10ish PCs go to a formal event that's in low armor. I mean, stationwear or second skin is allowed because space. But nothing with level-appropriate AC.
And of course a fight breaks out, against a bunch of CR 6 enemies that woefully underestimated the crowd they thought they were going to hold hostage on TV. So while the PCs get hit relatively easily, the odds of the overall fight aren't so unfair.
It is a variation on the "prison level" in video games. The PCs wake up in a prison cell with no weapons and armor, and have to figure out a way to get out and get even with their captors. If well designed, this gives players who invested in unarmed options or magic a time to shine, and lets the others use different skills and tactics to get armor and weapons together sufficient to take the fight to the enemy.
This definitely isn't a gameplay option that should be over-used, but it can be a fun one-session diversion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is a variation on the "start of every Elder Scrolls title" in video games.
Fixed that for ya. LOL!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
you're fighting a fire elemental in a fireworks factory
Brilliant! Consider this nicked and inserted into my game at some point in the near future. LOL!!
What kind of video??? LOL!
And unless you're shooting a verty specific kind of video there's no reason you can't have second skin skivvies.
If you're not old enough to know you'll have to ask you parents :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not hard to walk through the security screening point, go to a bathroom or empty office or similar room, use your null space chamber (summoned via a retrieval charm is necessary), then put on your heavy armor hidden under a disguise self spell or glamer projector armor upgrade. Just avoid interacting with people to avoid saving throws against your illusion. The face doing all the talking is wearing light armor hidden by a furtive garment that can't be detected or pierced.
I'm thinking even if they do smuggle their weapons in, leave the GM adjustments in place. If you sell it right a curbstomp can be cathartic.
Oh, and a level 6+ Technomancer with the genehacker spell cache can walk around with a permanent Polymorph spell that absorbs his completely functional power armor into his changed form as long as he swaps to/from an acceptable humanoid/monstrous humanoid race. Allies can benefit from this for minutes/level, which can get you through some issues where disguise self isn’t enough.
I imagine that coming up with rules to govern how every different governmental entity deals with arms and armor would prove to be unworkable. I think it best be left in the hands of each GM to handle how each governmental entity deals with this issue.
There are literally dozens of role-playing games that actually do address this issue, without any great difficulties.
Again, I appreciate that it's possible to make the math work by dialing down the opponents when the PCs are unarmored. That doesn't change the basic dynamic, that supposedly badass adventurers are sitting ducks against even low-level opponents because the game doesn't have any defenses to speak of baked in.
So I guess have my answer. Starfinder has basically nothing, and there is not really such a thing as defense outside of equipment.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I imagine that coming up with rules to govern how every different governmental entity deals with arms and armor would prove to be unworkable. I think it best be left in the hands of each GM to handle how each governmental entity deals with this issue.
There are literally dozens of role-playing games that actually do address this issue, without any great difficulties.
Again, I appreciate that it's possible to make the math work by dialing down the opponents when the PCs are unarmored. That doesn't change the basic dynamic, that supposedly badass adventurers are sitting ducks against even low-level opponents because the game doesn't have any defenses to speak of baked in.
So I guess have my answer. Starfinder has basically nothing, and there is not really such a thing as defense outside of equipment.
Nope, wrong conclusion. Starfinder doesn't account for this because, unlike those other games, it's designed so that it doesn't need to.
Armor is a defense against all opponents. It helps immensely against low level opponents. At the extremes, it lets you ignore them. At the opposite (bosses) it gives you a small advantage.
But it is always your second line of defense.
Your first line of defense is stamina. If you are out of stamina, retreat. If you can't, make sure you have a way out of being downed, because you will be.
Stamina is how you deal with being out of armor, and it's how you deal with enemies who hit you despite wearing armor.
Armor is a math fixer. You do want it, but you can survive without it. The system doesn't fail, it doesn't make your character useless, it just leaves you at a disadvantage. You know, like cover, terrain, etc.
Because you have stamina, even without armor, you will kick the asses of low level threats that you seem to be worried about. You just need that simple little 10 min rest a bit more often than you would if you had armor instead. Those bosses will be more threatening, but honestly? They'd hit you anyway. Even if you had level+2 armor.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again, I appreciate that it's possible to make the math work by dialing down the opponents when the PCs are unarmored. That doesn't change the basic dynamic, that supposedly badass adventurers are sitting ducks against even low-level opponents because the game doesn't have any defenses to speak of baked in.
And again, Murdermouse regularly runs around with an EAC and KAC of 13 or 14 until she can kill someone and retrofit their armor. The fact that she does that regularly shows that you're not a helpless waif without your armor.
Of course doing it the other way makes the system grarrrrg it's completely unworkable and unrealistic that you can shrug off bazooka blasts to your soft human flesh just because you've been on a few adventures. "why do people even make armor if you can just duck!"
Every system is wrong in some respects. Every system is a trade off somewhere. Every system has detractors. The grag and hyperbole over this minor inconsequential issue is really really weird.
Well, I guess I should know better than to sit in the home team bleachers and criticize. So anyway, thanks for the discussion, I feel like I have a very thorough answer at this point. I feel pretty secure in my understanding of the situation at this point.
Well, I guess I should know better than to sit in the home team bleachers and criticize. So anyway, thanks for the discussion, I feel like I have a very thorough answer at this point. I feel pretty secure in my understanding of the situation at this point.
It's more like you're yelling that baseball is completely unplayable because you only hit the ball 1/3rd of the time
d20 Modern has a stat called "Defense Bonus", which advances differently for different classes. This Defense Bonus added to Dex bonus and Armor bonus when figuring defense. Perhaps this could work for Starfinder instead of constantly buying armor?
This is not a bad idea, as long as it doesn't stack with armor, use either it or armor, whichever is better. I would also keep it below the protection provided by level appropriate light armor. You could use it for a basis of a full "space monk," or as minimal protection when everything goes wrong in formal situation.
The Shrink Object spell is another way to smuggle armor around pretty easily, depending on whether your GM counts the volume of it to include the empty area inside, it might be possible with a relatively low level version.
The Shrink Object spell is another way to smuggle armor around pretty easily, depending on whether your GM counts the volume of it to include the empty area inside, it might be possible with a relatively low level version.
Armor that's been neatly folded and packed should get around that limitation too.
|
|
Well, I guess I should know better than to sit in the home team bleachers and criticize. So anyway, thanks for the discussion, I feel like I have a very thorough answer at this point. I feel pretty secure in my understanding of the situation at this point.
You were asking "does Starfinder have this feature". Simple answer, no, it does not.
Should it have this feature? Maybe.
Pathfinder 1 had the Big Six effect where most characters were picking up the same mandatory magic items, because the stats of most monsters were based on the assumption that you had the bonuses those items gave. Starfinder is much the same bit mostly focused on armor and weapons. Also, you can't really upgrade Starfinder armor and weapons, you continually have to buy new ones.
In Pathfinder 1 a lot of people disliked this situation. One solution they came up with was Automatic Bonus Progression - you remove the irritating bonus stat items from your system, and instead people just get that bonus as an effect of being sufficiently high level. Flavorwise, it's a shift from "you're a powerful because you have powerful gear" to "you're powerful because you're high level". It's a bit like this d20 modern defense stat, but applied to more kinds of stats. (Also, D&D 3.5 also had this defense stat as an optional rule.)
Pathfinder 2 consolidated a lot of the character progression into the character (skills, AC, saves, to-hit all go up based on your level). You do collect some bonuses from items, but that's a smaller contribution. A PF2 character who has to break out of prison and steals the noob armor of the nearest guard is a lot better off than if you tried to pull that stunt in PF1 or Starfinder.
Putting in a sort of automatic bonus progression into Starfinder wouldn't be impossible, but it would be rather hard, because you drastically change how much wealth characters would be using. So you have to take a long hard look at how much loot encounters give out and so forth.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think mainly it's so striking to me that the removal of a bunch of bonus stacking means your attack bonus is almost entirely based on your level and your character options, while your damage output is gear-based but has a gradually increasing bonus. Your ability to soak damage is based on level and character options, but your defense numbers are almost entirely based on your gear. As long as everything is in some parity, it works out fine. But if you look at a situation where one or more the basic assumptions aren't met (like no armor), these things look a little odd. It's not clear to me why no sweetener was built into defense based on level, in the way a bonus to damage was built in based on level. Like in d20 Modern, the defense bonus is modest, but it exists in part because a lot of d20 Modern characters might from time to time find themselves in situation where they don't have armor or other defensive bonuses.
I'm still pretty new to Starfinder, and this particular issue threw me.
I think it gets weirder when a converted monk has a bare-knuckle fight with a member of a Starfinder class. The soldier or whoever has basically no defense at all. Which in turn makes me wonder how boxing works in Starfinder...
...Which in turn makes me wonder how boxing works in Starfinder...
Depends on the rules for the boxing league but probably with a high Constitution and DR. Remember, bowing is brutal, maybe not the most brutal, but still. Getting through a fight without a few hits isn't expected.
Abbolon has a rock em sock em robot ring. People in powered armor can compete in it.
Really, its just armor thats in a weird spot. Weapon specialization ensures that low level weapons are fine later on. They aren't as good, but a level 15 character will have zero issue killing CR4 monsters with a knife.
So all you really need to do is give automatic armor progression in return for 25% of player wealth.
A level 15 character in their birthday suit and no knife can probably take on half a dozen CR4 combatants. Lack of AC is something you can deal with within the system.
Make it a dozen CR4 combatants, and that level 15 might need to evade and find a ten minute break.
Make it a dozen CR4 combatants, and that level 15 might need to evade and find a ten minute break.
A level 15 combatant in their birthday suit is going to have DR between 10 and 15, and punch twice for 1d4+15 +strength -5 for being archaic (and that -5 is only going to last until after the first guy drops in 2-3 rounds)
Against a level 15 soldier a Nuar enforcer can only damage them every other time they hit and gets hit on a 1.
Make it a dozen CR4 combatants, and that level 15 might need to evade and find a ten minute break.A level 15 combatant in their birthday suit is going to have DR between 10 and 15, and punch twice for 1d4+15 +strength -5 for being archaic (and that -5 is only going to last until after the first guy drops in 2-3 rounds)
Against a level 15 soldier a Nuar enforcer can only damage them every other time they hit and gets hit on a 1.
To be fair, I was thinking a 10 CON, 10 STR, technomancer out of spells with no augmentations and no feats. Literally the worst possible matchup.
And I'm still... maybe 50/50 on the odds for a full dozen CR4 combatants. Might need terrain in that case though.