If I take prestige classes can I take feats with wizard level as a prerequisite?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

There are a few feats (e.g., opposition research, idealize) that have a prerequisite of a specific wizard level.

My plan is to take 5 levels and then go into the arcane savant prestige class to mix things up. My thinking is that I cannot count my wizard level as wizard level + arcane savant level for the purposes of qualifying for these feats. Am I correct?

EXAMPLE:
Opposition Research

Prerequisite: You must be at least a 9th-level Wizard to select this discovery.

Benefit: Select one Wizard opposition school; preparing spells of this school now only requires one spell slot of the appropriate level instead of two, and you no longer have the –4 Spellcraft penalty for crafting items from that school.


You would be correct that you only count as a 5th level wizard, not a 9th, and therefore be unable to take opposition research.

I also need to point out that Arcane Discoveries are not feats, wizards just have the option of taking them in place of a feat or a bonus feat. This means if you have a class feature that lets you count as a wizard for the purposes of feats, you do not count as one for the purpose of Arcane Discoveries.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Thank you.

Second question...

My build is
Level 1-5 Wizard (transmuter)
Level 6-15 Arcane Savant
L16-20 Loremaster

I want to take the arcane discovery multimorph, and I will qualify for it (prerequisite is L5 wizard).

Question: Do I have to take it when I level up as a wizard (in this build do I have to take it at precisely L5) OR, can I take it at any time after L5 (e.g., could I take it at level 9, 11, 13, etc.).

I'm inclined to think that I do not have to take that discovery at precisely L5, as I will meet the prerequisite at all levels between 5-20.


Correct, you're still a level 5 wizard after, so you can take it in place of your normal feat later on.


Out of curiosity, how are you getting the arcane discovery? Maybe I missed it but I didn’t know there was a feat you could take to get an arcane discovery...

Without a unique way to get your arcane discovery, you *would* have to take it at level 5 in place of your wizard bonus feat. It’s very possible I missed something though, I’m not too familiar with those prestige classes

“A wizard may also choose an Arcane Discovery that he qualifies for in place of a bonus feat at these levels .”


I have no idea where your quote is from. Ultimate Magic says this: "A wizard can learn an arcane discovery in place of a regular feat or wizard bonus feat." UM pg. 86


I'm in the original Wizard class entry. Guess it's literally just been that long since myself or my group has played a wizard! I retract what I said previously.


Let me guess, you looked it up on d20pfsrd.com?

d20pfsrd.com is not a proper rule source. It should not be consulted at all for rule questions, since the site often omits, changes, or adds text.

For the record, the Wizard is from the CRB, and Arcane Discoveries originate from UM. They couldn't possibly be mentioned in the Wizard description.


I mean, I don’t carry my pathfinder books to work with me or even get them off the bookshelf anymore, because for 99.99% of cases, the srd and FAQs from Paizo website work good enough and *are* accurate for RAW. And I disagree. I think the srd should *always* be used for finding rulings. Because it’s exponentially faster, universally accessible and cite-able, and in the 1% or fewer cases it’s wrong, there’s a large base of knowledgeable players able to realize when they see something wrong and can address it.


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I'm not saying you should stop using websites to look up rules, I'm saying you should use Archives of Nethys instead.


Derklord wrote:
I'm not saying you should stop using websites to look up rules, I'm saying you should use Archives of Nethys instead.

AoN's search feature is painful, to the point of near unusability.

No sort by relevance. No preview text before following a link. No nice tables for listing for example, all the feats with a summary write up. Or only the combat feats. (Or maybe I've just never figured out how to find these things easily in AoN).

If AoN would hook up google as the site search engine it would be great.


bbangerter wrote:
Derklord wrote:
I'm not saying you should stop using websites to look up rules, I'm saying you should use Archives of Nethys instead.

AoN's search feature is painful, to the point of near unusability.

No sort by relevance. No preview text before following a link. No nice tables for listing for example, all the feats with a summary write up. Or only the combat feats. (Or maybe I've just never figured out how to find these things easily in AoN).

If AoN would hook up google as the site search engine it would be great.

I agree directly searching AoN is difficult. The best way I've found to use it is to find the thing I want on d20 and then type into the google search bar

site: aonprd.com <whatever I'm looking for>

Then I can go straight to its entry on nethys (assuming the d20 name isn't drastically different from the real name).


bbangerter wrote:

No nice tables for listing for example, all the feats with a summary write up. Or only the combat feats. (Or maybe I've just never figured out how to find these things easily in AoN).

Like this? They've got the feat tables, seperated by category.


Agreed that the full search is awkward, especially since all the checkboxes are checked by default and I'm usually looking for one kind of thing. (If I'm only looking for one thing period, I'll just use Google.)


AoN is also not mobile friendly... the sidebar takes up 90% of the screen and can’t be minimized for the pathfinder 1st edition part of the site. While it may be the officially supported site, it is far from user friendly which is why people prefer to go to d20pfsrd when quickly looking something up. Heck you can often find your answer on d20pfsrd in the time it takes just to get the search page for AoN to start searching. It is very poorly coded... also, if your looking for spells as a Wizard or Occultist then AoN is even worse due to a complete lack of the ability to filter spells by spell school.


They updated the site on the 14th and it is much more mobile friendly now.


Talonhawke wrote:
They updated the site on the 14th and it is much more mobile friendly now.

I litteraly just had it up on my phone 5 seconds ago... still can't do anything about that side bar covering 90% of the screen... they updated it sure, but they did nothing for making it more mobile friendly or even user friendly at all.


Talonhawke wrote:
They updated the site on the 14th and it is much more mobile friendly now.

maybe that's what happened. I've noticed that recently on my computer I can't even access the built in search function any more because the sidebar won't scroll and search is near the bottom. I can't say for sure that it started doing this after the 14th but that sounds about right.


LordKailas wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
They updated the site on the 14th and it is much more mobile friendly now.
maybe that's what happened. I've noticed that recently on my computer I can't even access the built in search function any more because the sidebar won't scroll and search is near the bottom. I can't say for sure that it started doing this after the 14th but that sounds about right.

Same here. The old search page still exists but I have to access it by using a bookmark.


Just a note... while the new updated site has a “minimize menu” button, that button doesn’t work on mobile, the menu is all sorts of broken now on mobile... at least on iPhone anyways, haven’t checked android yet.


Chell Raighn wrote:
Just a note... while the new updated site has a “minimize menu” button, that button doesn’t work on mobile, the menu is all sorts of broken now on mobile... at least on iPhone anyways, haven’t checked android yet.

using an Iphone with Chrome no side menu unless i click the button for it everything fits on the screen nicely menu now drops down from the top. Not sure why yours is acting different but it is working great for a mobile page on my phone and browser.


But is it easier or cleaner than this?


D20pfsrd on my Phone in chrome
Archives on my phone in chrome

I mean it's clean I can navigate them both fairly easily. Archives still could do a little better on finding things sometimes but it's a lot better since this update.


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Chell Raighn wrote:
AoN ... also, if your looking for spells as a Wizard or Occultist then AoN is even worse due to a complete lack of the ability to filter spells by spell school.

You are using the wrong search. :-)

AoN -> Spells/Rituals -> Custom Search.
search screen wrote:

Class: [______v] Level (Min): [___v] Level (Max): [___v]

School: [______v] Sub-School: [______v] Descriptor: [______v]
Words in Description: [______]
Includes Mythic Version: [_]
PFS-Legal: [_]
<Filter Spells>

/cevah


blahpers wrote:
(If I'm only looking for one thing period, I'll just use Google.)

If I'm looking for one thing period, I type e.g. "aon feat" in the broweser's adress window, press down once, and replace the specific name in the link now in the adress window with what I'm looking for (pasting works even with spaces).

For searching for feats et al. with specific things, the by far best way is to download/make a copy of the respective file from here, and then search or filter the relevant section (e.g. prereqs).

Chell Raighn wrote:
people prefer to go to d20pfsrd when quickly looking something up

And that's not a problem. Hell, I do that myself! However, for a rule question, the exact wording is important. Quite frankly, we're talking about a few seconds here, whatever post you make takes way longer than the extra search time.

­
I suspect that 90% of all the problems with AoN are merely lack of familiarity. I do agree that the search function on d20 is a few seconds quicker, and it's certainly easier to link specific options from a list (e.g. Rage Powers) via d20 than via AoN. But for most things, AoN is not more complicated to use (and sometimes decidedly less complicated - d20 files the occult classes not under classes, but under alternate systems).

Maybe it's a different mindset. To me, getting information that I can trust to be true is more important than saving a few seconds. To me, investing a tiny amount of extra work to make a post that's factually correct is vastly preferable to to using the easiest way and ending up a with a blatantly incorrect post.


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No one is arguing that accuracy is less important than time per post. But when 1000 posts are accurate, and 1 is inaccurate, I’ll take my chances with the quicker option... I assume you follow all speed limit laws perfectly? Since you’d obviously prefer getting to your destiny safely than dying in a horrific car accident. False dichotomy, hyperbolic speech and straw-manning my guy.

The *actual dilemma is more like: right and quicker 99% of the time vs right and slower 100% of the time.”


As I play PF + homegrown only, the SRD does not give good answers more than rare occasions. I have to doublecheck each answer to see if it is 3pp before I can use it in my game. For players in PFS, it is even harder.

Another aspect is that AoN has better rules support as opposed to item support. Trying to find rules in SRD is harder than AoN.

Searching for spells is easier on AoN, as is general searching for stuff that I recalled imperfectly. Yes, the linking is better on SRD, but if you cannot get to the right page at first, better linking does not help.

Additionally, there are a number of things I have found on AoN that are still not on the SRD.

I use SRD more for broad reading and generic searching, but I use AoN for authoritative results.

Final result: both work, but have their strengths and weaknesses.

/cevah

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