Difficult question because especially Diehard is very much depending on a lot of different factors. Do you want to create a character that is most resistant to being killed, while not giving much consideration to feat efficiency, do you play under a mercyful GM or in a rules enforcement heavy environment like PFS, does your group struggle with the challenges presented by your GM and characters are therefore downed very often, which type of character are you playing, ranged sniper or melee? etc.
For example in my 4 levels of AoA (1st volume finished) my cleric and our ranger have not been downed once, whereas our fighter (acting as the tank) and our wizard have both been downed a couple of times already.
In general feats that are always on like Fleet are often better than feats that are mostly or entirely situational. And while both Toughness and Diehard provide benefits when you need them most they only provide them in cases where you don't want to find youself in in the first place.
For both feats I think they will shine more at higher levels. Thoughness because the increase in HP for most classes equals for one additional character level around level 11 and Diehard because I imagine persistant damage will be more prominent at high level play.
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I didn’t bring up Fleet since I don’t know how the map situation is going to be handled yet, otherwise it is indeed a strong contender.
“And while both Toughness and Diehard provide benefits when you need them most they only provide them in cases where you don't want to find youself in in the first place.”
I don’t want to of course but I’m not arrogant enough to assume my character (Champion, so frontliner) won’t ever get knocked out :3
In most general cases Toughness will get more use in play.
If you think the GM will throw Doomed and Wounded at you however, go with Diehard.
I don’t want to of course but I’m not arrogant enough to assume my character (Champion, so frontliner) won’t ever get knocked out :3
Yeah, but as the main party healer I can tell you that I will rather think twice before healing my dying 2 or 3 friend instead of just stabilizing him because the next drop or critical drop may indeed be fatal (of course this also requires the GM not being an !&"*%" and going for the kill).
Also because of my role of dedicated party healer I have yet to see dying increase by die roll as due to the changes in initiative order when downed I can usually act before the downed character needs to make his roll. On a sidenote it will be interesting to see what my party does when I go down because currently the other members options are limited to potions.
As stated above Thoughness can provide extra rounds, which is golden, and Diehard can help you in case of induced conditions or persistent damage.
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Normally, you can "afford" to get knocked down and back up once in a fight. After all, after getting up you're Wounded 1, and then if you get crit you go to Dying 3, but you're still alive.
With Diehard, you can do that a second time. That's pretty strong, if you need it.
Also the chances of actually getting crit after getting up are relatively high, because you're often close to a monster so it could attack you next turn with its first attack, which has the greatest chance of hitting.
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If you get any clarity about the map situation though, I'd definitely consider Fleet. It often makes the difference between needing one or two actions to get somewhere, and that means you can also strike and raise a shield. Or step back.
I think shields, and denying enemies their full three actions, can make a bigger difference than a few more HP.
For level 1, I think Diehard is likely more impactful. Toughness gives you just 1 HP at that level, and while it does scale, it'll give you the same amount of HP if you take it at level 3 that it would if you had it the entire time. But that's assuming you're going to be taking both anyway- if it's one or the other, I'd go with Toughness.
Canny Acumen can also be very worthwhile depending on save progression. More impactful than toughness for the right character imo.
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Toughness is fantastic. My Ranger ended up with more HP than the Barbarian because of it. But I wouldn't take it until 7. 1 extra HP is not impressive. Fleet, Incredible Initiative, and Fast Recovery all provide much greater benefit to a level 1 character.
I'm not a fan Diehard, unless you're planning to stack it with Living Monolith.
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I didn’t bring up Fleet since I don’t know how the map situation is going to be handled yet, otherwise it is indeed a strong contender.
Unless you almost exclusively play on extremely small and clear maps you’ll probably get the dopamine bit of actually using your feat a little more often with Fleet than either of the others. I almost exclusively GM, so my experience is a little skewed, but I feel like I’ve seen PCs have to Stride and Step, burning two actions, than I’ve seen PCs land exactly in the “Toughness zone” in terms of hit points. Diehard is even less common because in probably close to 50 sessions I’ve only ever had one PC actually die.
I don’t want to of course but I’m not arrogant enough to assume my character (Champion, so frontliner) won’t ever get knocked out :3
Frontlining makes a fairly compelling argument for Toughness.
Lay On Hands makes a good argument for Toughness.
There's a multiplicative force of AC, self-healing, & h.p. that you'd be feeding into. (Contrast this with a Barbarian whose h.p. fluctuate more wildly, so they likely need Diehard more.)
Heavy Armor makes a good argument for Fleet, as does wanting to be able to place yourself as a barrier, come to the rescue of others, and generally be useful in your role. Going from 20' to 25' is a 25% bump in mobility, which is pretty important when chasing down Goblins or crossing a battlefield, especially if you're trying to Raise a Shield too. A Reach weapon can mitigate that in smaller venues. Frankly, it's hard to overdo mobility what with difficult terrain and nearly all your other movement being based on your base speed. Get that untyped movement bonus. It's akin to an expensive magic item.
Diehard does seem more a late game factor when you can expect to fall and come up Wounded more often or have time factors pushing the party on.
Die Hard. No question.
I mean, take them both when you get the chance. But I have seen Die Hard save half a dozen PC lives.
In Strange Aeons (PF2) we were under an effect that made our dying condition happen at 1 less. So we'd be dead at Dying 3. My monk had Die Hard. And I was so glad I took it.
People actually make characters without Toughness?
Right?
That and Fleet feel like must-haves.If you have fewer h.p./level it's a bigger difference (and you likely have poorer saves!).
If you have more h.p./level you're likely under threat more often!
I guess for an archer I might delay getting it?
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I think the answer for me is, it depends. Make you constitution good enough and you really don't need either at first level. Given a choice between the two, I would pick diehard and invest in my constitution at character creation and it also helps with your fortitude saves.
in 1st Edition, I almost always picked it for my arcane casters.
I have a Champion that just hit 5th level in PFS Organized Play and didn't pick either.
My Sorcerer did not either.
My son'Fighter picked diehard and it was quite useful as he was 2 levels below us and he tended to get knocked around a bit. He is new to the game so it helped give him a bit more slack.
Personally, they synergize so well that I would not take one unless I planned to take both - and if I felt tempted to take one, I would make room in my build for both.
But I would probably take Toughness first - it seems more useful at lower levels.