I'm having a discussion in one of the Advice Threads about the Bull Rush rules and how movement works when performing a Bull Rush, and it would be nice to have the collective knowledge of the Rules Forums hammer this out.
So how exactly does a Bull Rush work? According to the Bull Rush Rules, it says
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
So, in the example given in the Bull Rush rules, the fighter pushes a Goblin 5ft, hits a 2nd goblin, and then continues to push both of them 10ft further, for a total of 15ft, and this 15ft movement is consumed from his total 30ft movement?
Quick Bull Rush (Combat)You can barrel into your opponent and follow this with an attack.
Prerequisite: Str 13, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: On your turn, you can perform a single bull rush combat maneuver in place of one of your melee attacks. You must choose the melee attack with the highest base attack bonus to make the bull rush.
Normal: A bull rush combat maneuver is a standard action.
With a Quick Bull Rush, you use your highest BAB attack to perform the Bull Rush against the two Goblins. So let's say you're a level 6 fighter, you would use your +6 BAB attack for the Quick Bull Rush, shove the two goblins 15 feet, and then perform your last iterative attack with a +1BAB?
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So how would all of this work with a Siegebreaker2/BrawlerX performing a Brawler's Flurry with Greater Bull Rush and Giant Fist Gauntlets?
Gauntlets, Giant Fist
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Slot hands; Price 20,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
As a swift action, the wearer of these rough leather gauntlets can expand her hands to twice normal size and harden to the consistency of hardwood. This transformation lasts for up to 20 rounds per day, though they need not be consecutive rounds. If the wearer hits with an unarmed strike or natural attack using her enlarged hands, she may attempt to bull rush her opponent as a free action.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Feats Craft Wondrous Item, enlarge person; Cost 10,000 gp.
Siegebreaker
Contents [show]
The siegebreaker is trained to break through lines of enemy soldiers.
Breaker Rush (Ex)At 1st level, a siegebreaker can attempt bull rush or overrun combat maneuvers without provoking attacks of opportunity. When he performs either combat maneuver, he deals an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to his Strength bonus (minimum 1). If he has Improved Bull Rush or Improved Overrun, the damage dealt by the appropriate maneuver increases by 2 and he adds any enhancement bonus from his armor or shield (though such enhancement bonuses do not stack, if both armor and shield are magic).
This ability replaces the feat gained at 1st level.
Armored Vigor (Ex)
At 2nd level as a swift action, a siegebreaker can gain 2 temporary hit points that last for 1 minute. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Constitution modifier (minimum 1 per day), but only while wearing armor. At 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the number of temporary hit points the siegebreaker gains increases by 2, to a maximum of 10 at 18th level.
This ability replaces bravery.
Breaker Momentum (Ex)
At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action.
This ability replaces the feat gained at 2nd level.
There have been others who say that you're not allowed to move during a Full Round Action or a Full Attack Action, but feats exist that break this rule, such as Circling Mongoose or Combat Patrol. The rule about moving during a Full Round Action states that you're only allowed to take a 5ft Step (which is a Miscellaneous Action), but the Bull Rush rules state that you're allowed to move with the target as long as you have Available Movement to follow them. A 5ft Step has nothing to do with Available Movement, except its relationship that you cannot perform both a 5ft Step and Movement in a given round.
So if you perform a Brawler's Flurry and have 5 unarmed attacks that all provoke a Bull Rush as a Free Action, and if each Bull Rush provokes an Overrun, would you move 5ft with the target each time you perform a Bull Rush, and then move 10ft to perform the Overrun, until you're out of Available Movement? Additionally, how would this work with Haste providing an additional 30ft Movement Speed?
There are no explicit rules stating that using a full round action prevents movement. It is just that many full round actions don't include movement as part of the action - but there are a few that do, charge for example, along with the feats you listed. Withdraw is also a full round action that is nothing but movement.
So my take aways are this:
If you take a 5' step, you cannot move as part of any bullrush manuever you make.
Otherwise, if you make 1 (or more) successfull bullrushes you can move with those bullrushes, so long as your total movement has not exceeded your base speed.
Haste would up your base speed by up to 30', so top 60' of bullrush/overrun movement.
Quick bullrush lets you do some interesting things. Quick bullrush first target, say 10', that puts you in range of another target to attack. You succeed and with your giantbreaker gauntlets make another bullrush and push the 2nd target some distance. Repeat till out of iteratives and/or movement. (Actually even just the guantlets without quick could do that if the first target is already in melee range).
There are no explicit rules stating that using a full round action prevents movement. It is just that many full round actions don't include movement as part of the action - but there are a few that do, charge for example, along with the feats you listed. Withdraw is also a full round action that is nothing but movement.
So my take aways are this:
If you take a 5' step, you cannot move as part of any bullrush manuever you make.
Otherwise, if you make 1 (or more) successfull bullrushes you can move with those bullrushes, so long as your total movement has not exceeded your base speed.
Haste would up your base speed by up to 30', so top 60' of bullrush/overrun movement.Quick bullrush lets you do some interesting things. Quick bullrush first target, say 10', that puts you in range of another target to attack. You succeed and with your giantbreaker gauntlets make another bullrush and push the 2nd target some distance. Repeat till out of iteratives and/or movement. (Actually even just the guantlets without quick could do that if the first target is already in melee range).
So, would this scenario be kosher per the rules?
A hasted level 13 Brawler with 60ft Movement Speed (normally 30ft move speed) uses a Brawler's Flurry as a Full Attack Action to get 6 Unarmed Strikes in a given round. The Brawler is wearing Giant Fist Gauntlets, which allow him to Bull Rush as a Free Action on each Unarmed Strike. The Brawler has 2 levels in Siegebreaker, which allow him to perform a Free Overrun whenever he performs a Bull Rush. This Brawler wishes to move with the target, and has the available movement to do so because he hasn't moved yet, nor has he taken a 5ft step.
The Brawler makes his first Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and chooses to move 5ft with the target, and now has 55ft movement left. He now also gets to Overrun as a Free Action because he performed a Bull Rush, and travels 10ft to do it, and now has 45ft movement left.
The Brawler makes his second Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and chooses to move 5ft with the target, and now has 40ft movement left. He now also gets to Overrun as a Free Action because he performed a Bull Rush, and travels 10ft to do it, and now has 30ft movement left.
The Brawler makes his third Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and chooses to move 5ft with the target, and now has 25ft movement left. He now also gets to Overrun as a Free Action because he performed a Bull Rush, and travels 10ft to do it, and now has 15ft movement left.
The Brawler makes his fourth Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and chooses to move 5ft with the target, and now has 10ft movement left. He now also gets to Overrun as a Free Action because he performed a Bull Rush, and travels 10ft to do it, and now has 0ft movement left.
The Brawler makes his fifth Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and cannot move with the target because he has no movement left. He cannot Overrun because he has no movement left. He exceeds the target's CMD by 10 and decides to Bull Rush the target 15ft and not follow the target.
The Brawler cannot perform his sixth Unarmed Strike because the target has been Bull Rushed out of the Brawler's threatened space.
There have been others who say that you're not allowed to move during a Full Round Action or a Full Attack Action
I'm in that camp. Unless you have an ability that specifically grants you movement as part of a full-attack, you can't move since you've used up your actions.
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Could you explain what "Available Movement" means to you?
There have been others who say that you're not allowed to move during a Full Round Action or a Full Attack ActionI'm in that camp. Unless you have an ability that specifically grants you movement as part of a full-attack, you can't move since you've used up your actions.
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Could you explain what "Available Movement" means to you?
In the Goblin Example in the Bull Rush rules, the fighter uses a Standard Action to Bull Rush his targets a total of 15ft. If he was a human fighter, he'd have 30ft speed, so his available movement after doing this would be 15ft left. If he was a dwarf fighter, he'd have 20ft speed, so his available movement after this would be 5ft left.
Moving with the target during a Bull Rush comes from this rule in Bull Rush: If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
In the Goblin Example in the Bull Rush rules, the fighter uses a Standard Action to Bull Rush his targets a total of 15ft. If he was a human fighter, he'd have 30ft speed, so his available movement after doing this would be 15ft left. If he was a dwarf fighter, he'd have 20ft speed, so his available movement after this would be 5ft left.
Right. According to your interpretation, does this human fighter still have their Move action?
In the Goblin Example in the Bull Rush rules, the fighter uses a Standard Action to Bull Rush his targets a total of 15ft. If he was a human fighter, he'd have 30ft speed, so his available movement after doing this would be 15ft left. If he was a dwarf fighter, he'd have 20ft speed, so his available movement after this would be 5ft left.Right. According to your interpretation, does this human fighter still have their Move action?
That’s a really good question. It doesn’t actually say you lose your Move Action in the Bull Rush rules, so RAW, you would still be allowed to perform a Move Action. However, that could be highly abused by Bull Rushing someone 5-10ft less than your movement allows and then taking a full Move Action to do something else, such as Cackle or Draw a Weapon, so RAI, I’d say no. Honestly, that should be a GM call or house rule.
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This is very simple.
The movement you have available when making a Bull Rush is exactly the same as the movement you have available when making a normal (e.g. melee with a sword) attack.
That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less.
You Bull Rush as a standard action? Just like making a single sword attack with a standard action you can then also use a Move action to travel up to your speed in the same round. If you instead use a Move action for something else (e.g. retrieving an item from your pack) then you would still be able to take a 5' step along with your Bull Rush (or sword attack), but no other movement.
You Bull Rush as part of a Full Attack action? Just like making a single sword attack as part of a Full Attack action you only have a 5' step as available movement.
You Bull Rush as part of a Combat Patrol? Just like making a single sword attack as part of a Combat Patrol you have movement up to your speed available.
Et cetera.
Whatever the movement allowed for the action you are taking... that's the movement allowed if you also happen to Bull Rush. Bull Rush does not change your available movement. You cannot take a Full Attack action and then get more than a 5' step by Bull Rushing... the available movement with a Full Attack is a 5' step and remains so whether you Bull Rush or not.
In the Goblin Example in the Bull Rush rules, the fighter uses a Standard Action to Bull Rush his targets a total of 15ft. If he was a human fighter, he'd have 30ft speed, so his available movement after doing this would be 15ft left. If he was a dwarf fighter, he'd have 20ft speed, so his available movement after this would be 5ft left.Right. According to your interpretation, does this human fighter still have their Move action?
It is not a question of having a move action left. It is a question of having movement left. Those are two very different things. For example, I might be paralyzed. I'd have a move action available to me on my turn, but no movement abilility. Conversely I might use my move action (or take a full round action), and thus have no remaining move action available to me, but still be able to use movement via a bullrush, bladed dash spell, etc. Normally if you want to use movement you need to use a move action (or a standard converted to a move) but there are dozens (probably hundreds) of exceptions to that rule - in which you can gain movement without using a move action. To not allow this via the bullrush chain example above the rules would need language that states "When making a free bullrush attempt on a natural attack, you cannot move with the target."
If some ability allows me to move as part it (like a bull rush) I get to move as part of it - so long as I'm following all the rules - e.g, I haven't moved my maximum movement as per bull rush. There is no specific rule that says you cannot move as part of a full attack. It's just that normally when doing a full attack getting movement isn't part of the package. You'd need a specific rule - like say the specific rule that giant brawlers gauntlets let you bullrush on certain attack types, which bullrush specifically says you can move with the target.
@Ryze Kuja, your example with six attacks is valid. Although that is a lot of free actions that a GM may decide to limit you on - so that specific example becomes a ask your GM about the number of free actions used.
@bbangerter
I am aware that there is a difference between Movement and a Move Action. What I'm trying to zero in on is what Ryze Kuja believes "Available Movement" means.
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However, that could be highly abused by Bull Rushing someone 5-10ft less than your movement allows and then taking a full Move Action to do something else, such as Cackle or Draw a Weapon, so RAI, I’d say no.
So you believe that the intention of the rules is that you would have to spend your move action for movement when you Bull Rush someone?
You Bull Rush as part of a Full Attack action? Just like making a single sword attack as part of a Full Attack action you only have a 5' step as available movement.You Bull Rush as part of a Combat Patrol? Just like making a single sword attack as part of a Combat Patrol you have movement up to your speed available.
Why does your "Available Movement" change to 5ft when you're making a Bull Rush during your Full Attack Action but your "Available Movement" is your full base speed while using Combat Patrol?
Whatever the movement allowed for the action you are taking... that's the movement allowed if you also happen to Bull Rush. Bull Rush does not change your available movement. You cannot take a Full Attack action and then get more than a 5' step by Bull Rushing... the available movement with a Full Attack is a 5' step and remains so whether you Bull Rush or not.
There's a significant difference between a 5ft step and Available Movement. Available Movement is whatever is movement you have remaining from your base speed. A 5ft step is not Available Movement. A 5ft Step is a Miscellaneous Action that can only be performed if you haven't used any of your Available Movement in the round.
@bbangerter
So you believe that the intention of the rules is that you would have to spend your move action for movement when you Bull Rush someone?
Well, kinda. I think if you moved 15ft because of your Bull Rush, then you should be able to finish your 15ft of movement if you want to, but you shouldn't be able to also perform a Move Action to Draw a Weapon or something.
Like, a Move Action is ~3 seconds, so if you've already moved 15ft in a Bull Rush, that's kinda like consuming 1/2 of your Move Action. So if you want to finish that movement of moving an additional 15ft, then you should be allowed to, but I don't think you should be allowed to Bull Rush someone 15ft and then still be able to use a Move Action to Draw a Weapon.
Tbh, I haven't really thought about this before, so I'm open to whatever you might proffer in your own interpretation.
In the Goblin Example in the Bull Rush rules, the fighter uses a Standard Action to Bull Rush his targets a total of 15ft. If he was a human fighter, he'd have 30ft speed, so his available movement after doing this would be 15ft left. If he was a dwarf fighter, he'd have 20ft speed, so his available movement after this would be 5ft left.Right. According to your interpretation, does this human fighter still have their Move action?
It is not a question of having a move action left. It is a question of having movement left. Those are two very different things. For example, I might be paralyzed. I'd have a move action available to me on my turn, but no movement abilility. Conversely I might use my move action (or take a full round action), and thus have no remaining move action available to me, but still be able to use movement via a bullrush, bladed dash spell, etc. Normally if you want to use movement you need to use a move action (or a standard converted to a move) but there are dozens (probably hundreds) of exceptions to that rule - in which you can gain movement without using a move action. To not allow this via the bullrush chain example above the rules would need language that states "When making a free bullrush attempt on a natural attack, you cannot move with the target."
If some ability allows me to move as part it (like a bull rush) I get to move as part of it - so long as I'm following all the rules - e.g, I haven't moved my maximum movement as per bull rush. There is no specific rule that says you cannot move as part of a full attack. It's just that normally when doing a full attack getting movement isn't part of the package. You'd need a specific rule - like say the specific rule that giant brawlers gauntlets let you bullrush on certain attack types, which bullrush specifically says you can move with the target.
@Ryze Kuja, your example with six attacks is valid. Although that is a lot of free actions that a GM may decide...
I believe all of this is correct.
So you believe that the intention of the rules is that you would have to spend your move action for movement when you Bull Rush someone?Well, kinda. I think if you moved 15ft because of your Bull Rush, then you should be able to finish your 15ft of movement if you want to, but you shouldn't be able to also perform a Move Action to Draw a Weapon or something.
That sounds very much like you do not believe that making a Bull Rush maneuver gives you free, additional movement during a turn.
Which is what CBDunkerson has been arguing for.
So you believe that the intention of the rules is that you would have to spend your move action for movement when you Bull Rush someone?Well, kinda. I think if you moved 15ft because of your Bull Rush, then you should be able to finish your 15ft of movement if you want to, but you shouldn't be able to also perform a Move Action to Draw a Weapon or something.That sounds very much like you do not believe that making a Bull Rush maneuver gives you free, additional movement during a turn.
Which is what CBDunkerson has been arguing for.
Bull Rush doesn’t give you free movement, but rather it consumes it from your available movement. CBDunkerson is trying to say that you can only travel 5ft in a full attack action, so if you make a Quick Bull Rush, you cannot travel with the target more than 5ft, and the only way you can use the rest of your iterative attacks is if there’s a second monster next to you, or in the case of the Brawler with the Giant Fist Gauntlets making a full attack, that he would attack, bull rush his target 5ft, and be out of movement for the rest of the round. And I disagree with that, because I think he’s confusing a 5ft Step as having only 5ft of Available Movement.
Bull Rush doesn’t give you free movement, but rather it consumes it from your available movement.
And where does this available movement come from? If I full-attack something and use up all my actions then I have nothing left for movement, right?
Bull Rush doesn’t give you free movement, but rather it consumes it from your available movement.And where does this available movement come from? If I full-attack something and use up all my actions then I have nothing left for movement, right?
It comes from your base speed. So for a human that's 30ft or a dwarf that's 20ft.
Well, let's go back to the Quick Bull Rush example with the level 6 Fighter. He uses his First BAB attack to Bull Rush the two Goblins 15ft and still gets his iterative attack, right?
It comes from your base speed. So for a human that's 30ft or a dwarf that's 20ft.
But you just said that Bull Rush doesn't give you free movement. Now you're sayimg that Bull Rush gives you free movement up to your base speed.
I think we should resolve this contradiction before moving on.
It comes from your base speed. So for a human that's 30ft or a dwarf that's 20ft.But you just said that Bull Rush doesn't give you free movement. Now you're sayimg that Bull Rush gives you free movement up to your base speed.
I think we should resolve this contradiction before moving on.
I agree, so everyone is on the same page. In the original Bull Rush rules, it says you can move with the target as long as your available movement allows.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
So in this example, the Fighter bull rushes the goblin 5ft, then collides with a 2nd goblin and provokes a 2nd CMB check and succeeds, and then continues to push both targets an additional 10 feet, for a total of 15 feet.
His starting Available Movement, as I interpret this rule, is 30 feet if he's a human, and 20feet if he's a dwarf, and this is basically determined by whatever your base speed is.
So the fighter uses a Standard Action to start the Bull Rush, then if he chooses to travel with the target(s), any movement made as a part of this Bull Rush is then subtracted from his Available Movement (or his base speed). And the human would have 15ft Available Movement remaining, or a dwarf would have 5ft Available Movement remaining, after performing this Bull Rush as his Standard Action.
So it's not "free movement" that appears from nowhere, it's movement that was intended to be consumed from your total Available Movement, or as much Movement that would normally be allowed during a Move Action due to your Base Speed.
Do you agree with that interpretation or would you define it differently?
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Why does your "Available Movement" change to 5ft when you're making a Bull Rush during your Full Attack Action but your "Available Movement" is your full base speed while using Combat Patrol?
Because that's what the rules for Full Attack and Combat Patrol actions say;
Full Attack: "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step."
Combat Patrol: "You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed."
The rules explicitly say how much movement you have for different types of action. That's your "available movement".
There's a significant difference between a 5ft step and Available Movement. Available Movement is whatever is movement you have remaining from your base speed.
...and this is the root disagreement. You apparently believe that you always get movement up to your speed. Even on actions, like a Full Attack, which explicitly say that you do not. I take "available movement" to be the amount of movement stated to be allowed with the action being performed.
So how do you get from the rules saying, "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step", to your belief that 'you can move up to your speed while making a full attack'?
Why does your "Available Movement" change to 5ft when you're making a Bull Rush during your Full Attack Action but your "Available Movement" is your full base speed while using Combat Patrol?Because that's what the rules for Full Attack and Combat Patrol actions say;
Full Attack: "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step."
Combat Patrol: "You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed."
The rules explicitly say how much movement you have for different types of action. That's your "available movement".
There's a significant difference between a 5ft step and Available Movement. Available Movement is whatever is movement you have remaining from your base speed....and this is the root disagreement. You apparently believe that you always get movement up to your speed. Even on actions, like a Full Attack, which explicitly say that you do not. I take "available movement" to be the amount of movement stated to be allowed with the action being performed.
So how do you get from the rules saying, "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step", to your belief that 'you can move up to your speed while making a full attack'?
I find it absolutely fascinating that you make the distinction between a 5ft step and available movement speed, and honestly, that's going to be the first rule you have to do logical gymnastics with. I think you're confused about the 5ft step rule and the available movement rule, and tbqh that's something you're going to have to convince me of believing. I would genuinely like to hear, at length, with all rules quoted, how you discern the difference between a fighter1 bull rush with a standard action and movement compatible with the two goblin example, a fighter6 bull rush with QBR and movement compatible with the two goblin example, and a fighter6 bull rush with bull rush strike and movement compatible with the two goblin example.
And if you please, present your definition of Available Movement with respect to how that's supposed to work with the Bull Rush Rules. <---- Please enumerate what you think about Standard Action Bull Rush + Available Movement. Please also give your opinion on a Siegebreaker2/BrawlerX with Giant Fist Gauntlets and how it should work with a lvl 13 Siegebreaker2/BrawlerX Flurry of Blows with Haste active, and please explain your position regarding this at length as well.
Please remember that this is a Rules Forum, and that all of this is for posterity's sake. So please quote any applicable rules you're talking about when you're discussing this.
And I wasn't kidding:
I would like to hear how you reconcile the Bull Rush rules as far as moving with your target.
I would like to hear about how you think Quick Bull Rush works, and allowing you to move with your target.
I would also like to hear, for funsies, how you think that the feat Bull Rush Strike is to be considered, especially on an 11BAB+ character where specifically, this person has 3+ attacks from BAB/Haste, and the 2nd attack is a critical with a confirmation roll. Does this character get their first attack? second attack--critical confirm? Bull Rush Strike + Movement based on the critical confirm? 3rd BAB attack?
What does it all mean, Basil?!?
And I wasn't kidding:
I would like to hear how you reconcile the Bull Rush rules as far as moving with your target.
I would like to hear about how you think Quick Bull Rush works, and allowing you to move with your target.
I would also like to hear, for funsies, how you think that the feat Bull Rush Strike is to be considered, especially on an 11BAB+ character where specifically, this person has 3+ attacks from BAB/Haste, and the 2nd attack is a critical with a confirmation roll. Does this character get their first attack? second attack--critical confirm? Bull Rush Strike + Movement based on the critical confirm? 3rd BAB attack?
What does it all mean, Basil?!?
CBDunkerson, let's hear all of these scenarios at length, in accordance with your own opinion.
His starting Available Movement, as I interpret this rule, is 30 feet if he's a human, and 20feet if he's a dwarf, and this is basically determined by whatever your base speed is.
But nothing you've quoted says that. Nobody starts their turn with "Available Movement" in Pathfinder. It feels as if you're confusing the rules with 5e where you start out every turn with movement. In Pathfinder you must spend actions to get movement. What the Bull Rush rules are saying is that if you've used an action type that gave you movement, and you haven't used it all up, you can keep moving with your target.
Let's say you're a Human Fighter with 30 ft movement speed. You've charged a goblin that was 20 ft away and successfully used a Bull Rush combat maneuver in place of your attack.
The total amount of movement a charge attack can give you is twice your speed, so 60 ft.
You have at the moment of impact used up 20 ft to reach to goblin.
Your Available Movement is 40 ft, and you can use this to keep moving with the Bull Rush.
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Ryze Kuja, you keep going back over the same ground, demanding answers to the same questions w/o addressing the central issue yourself. Therefore, I'm going to have to insist;
The Full Attack rules state, "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step."
So. How do you reconcile that with your stated belief that you can move up to your base speed while taking a Full Attack action?
To me it looks like you are ignoring a clearly stated rule in favor of one which doesn't exist at all.
Please remember that this is a Rules Forum, and that all of this is for posterity's sake. So please quote any applicable rules you're talking about when you're discussing this.
Note, I have been providing rules quotations which make my case. You, have not. Disagree? Then please cite where it is written that you can move up to your base speed while taking a Full Attack action... or, as you seem to be arguing, that your "available movement" is always your base speed.
Ryze Kuja, you keep going back over the same ground, demanding answers to the same questions w/o addressing the central issue yourself. Therefore, I'm going to have to insist;
The Full Attack rules state, "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step."
So. How do you reconcile that with your stated belief that you can move up to your base speed while taking a Full Attack action?
To me it looks like you are ignoring a clearly stated rule in favor of one which doesn't exist at all.
Please remember that this is a Rules Forum, and that all of this is for posterity's sake. So please quote any applicable rules you're talking about when you're discussing this.Note, I have been providing rules quotations which make my case. You, have not. Disagree? Then please cite where it is written that you can move up to your base speed while taking a Full Attack action... or, as you seem to be arguing, that your "available movement" is always your base speed.
I think the crux of this lies in just determining what the rules for bull rush alone are (no extra feats, items, class features, etc involved).
If I take a standard action to bull rush someone, can I also move as part of that bull rush?
Do I have to have used my move action to gain movement, as opposed to having used my move action to drink a potion or something else? If yes, then really a bull rush is a full round action, and not a standard action. Or it is a full round action if I want to move with the target, but only a standard if I stay still.
The converse problem of course is that bull rush doesn't explicitly state that as part of doing a bull rush you also get to move up to your base speed of movement as part of the standard action.
So should we infer that you get your base speed of movement as part of the standard action to bull rush? Or should we infer that it might actually be a full round action (but only if you want to move with the target)?
I looked at overun to see what it might say to possible add light to the subject. I think it just makes it more murky.
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Given bull rush does not include the bolded part, I'm inclined to infer that bull rush does indeed include the movement as part of the package. But the writer may have intended that for bull rush and overlooked that detail in the description.
Ryze Kuja, you keep going back over the same ground, demanding answers to the same questions w/o addressing the central issue yourself. Therefore, I'm going to have to insist;
The Full Attack rules state, "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step."
So. How do you reconcile that with your stated belief that you can move up to your base speed while taking a Full Attack action?
To me it looks like you are ignoring a clearly stated rule in favor of one which doesn't exist at all.
Please remember that this is a Rules Forum, and that all of this is for posterity's sake. So please quote any applicable rules you're talking about when you're discussing this.Note, I have been providing rules quotations which make my case. You, have not. Disagree? Then please cite where it is written that you can move up to your base speed while taking a Full Attack action... or, as you seem to be arguing, that your "available movement" is always your base speed.
I've only said it about a thousand times and quoted the rules for it. If you honestly believe that I haven't been quoting the rules for what I'm talking about, then I wonder if you're even reading what I'm saying?
You are allowed to move with your target during a Bull Rush. That's in the Bull Rush Rules. You cannot move further than your available movement allows. That's in the Bull Rush rules. They even give an example of a fighter moving 15 ft during a bull rush. That's also in the Bull Rush rules.
Why would you be allowed to move 15ft with your target during a Bull Rush as a Standard Action then all the sudden all those rules get thrown out the window when you do a Quick Bull Rush? And quote a rule for it please.
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Can you bullrush for less than the result of your bullrush attemt?
The text:
"If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet."
So can you choose to ignore the additional movement from exceeding your opponents CMD?
Can you bullrush prone targets?
If I take a standard action to bull rush someone, can I also move as part of that bull rush?
you have available movement. Like say a 5-foot step or the ability to charge as a standard action.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
The rules throws a hard requirement on you, a must. How did you manage to transform a requirement into a benefit?
Like, if there was some painfully obvious rules text for bows that said the following:
"You can fire your bow if you wish but you must have the arrows available to do so"
How did that turn into free arrows?
Do you understand my confusion? It feels as if we're not even reading the same rules.
If I take a standard action to bull rush someone, can I also move as part of that bull rush?you have available movement. Like say a 5-foot step or the ability to charge as a standard action.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.The rules throws a hard requirement on you, a must. How did you manage to transform a requirement into a benefit?
Like, if there was some painfully obvious rules text for bows that said the following:
"You can fire your bow if you wish but you must have the arrows available to do so"
How did that turn into free arrows?
Do you understand my confusion? It feels as if we're not even reading the same rules.
So you believe a bull rush that includes moving someone is effectively a full round action? Since you must have used your move action to move in order to have available movement?
e.g, if the first thing I do on my turn is bull rush an adjacent enemy, and I move with them, do I still have a move action left on my turn, or has it been used?
Can you bullrush for less than the result of your bullrush attemt?
The text:
"If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet."
So can you choose to ignore the additional movement from exceeding your opponents CMD?
Yes. Bolded the relevant part of your post that shows this. (i.e, can is optional).
Can you bullrush prone targets?
I don't see anything in the rules that disallows this.
So you believe a bull rush that includes moving someone is effectively a full round action? Since you must have used your move action to move in order to have available movement?
If you want to move with your target, then you must have available movement. This would eat up your standard and move actions in most cases, yes. Keep in mind that the "thematic" bull rush is a charge.
e.g, if the first thing I do on my turn is bull rush an adjacent enemy, and I move with them, do I still have a move action left on my turn, or has it been used?
If you decide to use your move action, you no longer have it. Unsurprisingly.
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what constitutes available movement?
where does movement come from?
Is available movement equal to base speed, even if you arent allowed to move more than 5ft?
where does it say your available movement is equal to your speed?
"Movement in Combat: Generally, you can move your speed in a round and still do something (take a move action and a standard action)."
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I've only said it about a thousand times and quoted the rules for it.
You've quoted rules. None of them say anything about being allowed to move up to your speed with a bull rush or "available movement" always being equal to your speed... or whatever it is you actually believe. Which, in fact, you haven't clearly spelled out. Do you believe that you get up to your base speed for EACH bull rush you make in a round? Up to your base speed split between all of the bull rushes? What if you are taking an action that already allows movement? On a charge can you move up to double your base speed and then get ADDITIONAL movement up to your speed by bull rushing?
You are allowed to move with your target during a Bull Rush. That's in the Bull Rush Rules. You cannot move further than your available movement allows. That's in the Bull Rush rules. They even give an example of a fighter moving 15 ft during a bull rush. That's also in the Bull Rush rules.
As I said... retreading the same ground over and over and over again. We all agree on the above. None of that is in dispute. The disagreement is over what "available movement" means. To me it means the amount of movement allowed based on the action type taken. To you it means some unspecified (and nonexistent in the rules) variation of base speed (as per my questions above).
Why would you be allowed to move 15ft with your target during a Bull Rush as a Standard Action then all the sudden all those rules get thrown out the window when you do a Quick Bull Rush?
They don't. You can move 15', in either case, IF you have enough movement available to do so.
Let's say you are using Quick Bull Rush as part of a Charge action with Pounce. The "available movement" for a charge action is up to twice your base speed. If you have a base speed of 30, charge 45', and do a Quick Bull Rush that pushes your target back 15' you still have enough available movement to follow them and get your remaining attacks.
Conversely, if you move your base speed as a move action and then make a bull rush as a standard action you have no "available movement" left and CANNOT follow the target if you push them back.
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If I take a standard action to bull rush someone, can I also move as part of that bull rush?
Maybe. It depends on how much movement you have available.
If the standard action is the first thing you are doing on your turn then you can burn a move action to give yourself available movement up to your speed. If you have already moved your speed and THEN bull rush you have no available movement left. If you used a move action to remove an item from your pack and then bull rushed you still have a 5' step as available movement.
If yes, then really a bull rush is a full round action, and not a standard action. Or it is a full round action if I want to move with the target, but only a standard if I stay still.
This is like saying that attacking with a sword is a full round action if you want to move up to your target first. You can think of it that way if you want, but per the rules it is a standard action and a move action... and, as above, you can also do a standard action bull rush, non-movement 'move action', and a 5' step.
OR you could bull rush on a charge action... which is already a full round action that allows movement up to twice your base speed. Ergo, your "available movement" for bull rush is: [base speed x 2] - amount already moved.
OR you could use Quick Bull Rush during a Spring-Heeled Reaping action... which allows movement up to your base speed.
Et cetera.
Different actions which you can bull rush with specify different amounts which you are allowed to move. That is your "available movement". Whatever distance you could move if you were NOT bull rushing... that's the distance you can move if you ARE bull rushing. Very simple.
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This has been the problem for a month now (started in another thread).
Ryze keeps quoting bullrush.
People bring evidence to the contrary.
Ryze quotes bullrush again, without addressing counter argument.
More people bring more evidence.
Ryze quotes bullrush again, without addressing counter argument.
People bring up speed, movement rules, full round attack rules, common sense.
Ryze quotes bullrush again, without addressing counter argument.
That's been the pattern.
Im probably missing a bunch of quoting bullrush.
Ryzes only argument is "but bullrush says.." to the exclusion of all other rules
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Ryzes only argument is "but bullrush says.." to the exclusion of all other rules
Which wouldn't be so much of a problem if the bull rush rules supported his position in any way.
Instead, the best that can be said is that the bull rush rules, taken in isolation, do not state what your "available movement" is... presumably because that is clearly specified in all the other rules.
How does the 15ft of movement in the Goblin example happen then? Why does that movement suddenly go away during a Quick Bull Rush?
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How does the 15ft of movement in the Goblin example happen then?
This has been explained so many times.
That example is for Bull Rush as a standard attack. Most characters would therefore have a move action available. With a base speed of 30' that 'available move action' would give them "available movement" of 30'. Ergo, no problem pushing a goblin back 15'.
Why does that movement suddenly go away during a Quick Bull Rush?
Again, you repeating this question shows that you aren't even trying to understand the responses.
No movement goes away. You have exactly the same movement you would have without the bull rush. To repeat the charge with pounce example again... base speed 30', charge allows 2 x base speed = 60' movement. Therefore your "available movement" is... 60'. You charge 15' and Quick Bull Rush an enemy... you have 45' of available movement left and, due to pounce, can make the remainder of your attacks after pushing the target back and moving with them. No movement has 'gone away'.
Look at the rules on what your available movement would be if you were making sword attacks. That's the total amount you can move while making one or more bull rush attacks too. Bull Rush does not change your "available movement" at all.
Okay, so I agree with that. I wonder if we’re off definition-wise as far as our communication.
In a Quick Bull Rush, are you still allowed to move 15ft because you haven’t exhausted your available movement of 30ft, in your interpretation?
Okay, so I agree with that. I wonder if we’re off definition-wise as far as our communication.
I think you should clearly state what exactly you agree with, before CBDunkerson has an aneurysm. Because your follow up question reveals that you don't agree with 'that'.
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In a Quick Bull Rush, are you still allowed to move 15ft because you haven’t exhausted your available movement of 30ft, in your interpretation?
Insufficient information. Quick Bull Rush has NOTHING to do with whether you are able to move 15' or not. That is determined by the type of action you are taking and the amount of movement you have already used.
If you take a Full Attack action then your "available movement" is only a 5' step and you would thus only be able to move 5' on a Quick Bull Rush... not 15'.
If you take a Charge action then your "available movement" for Quick Bull Rush is: [2 x Base Speed] - Amount already moved.
Once again, Bull Rush (Quick or otherwise) does not change your available movement at all. You can move exactly the same distance you would be able to if you were making sword attacks instead. That distance varies by the type of action(s) you are taking and is specified in the rules for each action type;
Full Attack = 5' step
Charge = 2 x Base Speed
Standard Action Bull Rush = Base Speed from Move action
Standard Action Bull Rush & Non-movement 'Move action' = 5' step
Spring-Heeled Reaping = Base Speed
Whirlwind Dance (Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler ability) = Base Speed
Et cetera
Paizo went to all this trouble to specify the different movement amounts allowed with each type of action. Nowhere do they say, 'but ignore all that if a bull rush happens to be involved'.
I think we’re all arguing the same stuff here. But we’re mixed up on definitions.
Your “available movement” doesn’t change from 30ft. during a Standard Action Bull Rush to your “available movement” being 5ft during a Quick Bull Rush. If that were the case, it would say so in the feat as a special rule.
I think you’re mixing up available movement with a 5ft step.
Go check the rules on a Full Attack Action or Full Round Action. It says you can take a 5ft step. Which is a Miscellaneous Action. It doesn’t say your “available movement” is 5ft.
Otherwise, if it did, then circling mongoose and combat patrol would also be limited to 5ft as well. And that’s not the case.
Circling Mongoose (Combat)
You keep your opponent on the defensive as you circle around threateningly.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you are adjacent to a foe, as a full-round action, you can take a full-attack action to make melee attacks against the foe, moving 5 feet before each attack. You must move 5 feet before each melee attack you make, and can’t exceed your maximum speed, exceed your maximum number of attacks in a round, or attack any other target until the beginning of your next turn.
You must remain adjacent to the foe, and your movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal unless you succeed at the appropriate Acrobatics checks. If your first attack against the foe hits, you are considered to be flanking the foe on your second attack. Subsequent attacks made as part of the full-attack action continue to be treated as if you were flanking the foe until one of your attacks misses, at which point your attacks are treated normally.
Normal: A character without this feat is limited to only one 5-foot step during a full attack, taken before, after, or between attacks.
Combat Patrol (Combat)
You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.
Prerequisites: Combat reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity.You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Bull Rush
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
Chock it up to bad writing if you want to. But the intent is there.
Quick Bull Rush (Combat)
You can barrel into your opponent and follow this with an attack.
Prerequisite: Str 13, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: On your turn, you can perform a single bull rush combat maneuver in place of one of your melee attacks. You must choose the melee attack with the highest base attack bonus to make the bull rush.
Normal: A bull rush combat maneuver is a standard action.
Full-Round ActionsA full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
The following actions take a variable amount of time to accomplish or otherwise work differently than other actions.
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
5 foot steps are miscellaneous actions. It's not "available movement" or your "movement speed".
@Ryze Kuja
Here's some reading comprehension examples. Please take your time and you'll realize where you went wrong when reading the rules for Bull Rush.
A -"I was thinking of building a fence."
B -"You can do so if you wish but you must have a permit to do so."
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A -"I want to eat fresh bread."
B -"You can eat fresh bread at the bakery if you wish but you must have cash to do so."
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A -"I want to fire my bow"
B -"You can do so if you wish but you must have the available arrows to do so."
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A -"I want to follow the target of my Bull Rush."
B -"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."
***
1: What does person A need to build a fence?
2: Why does person A need money?
3: How many arrows are given to person A for free each round?
4: What does person A need to move with the target of their Bull Rush? Are they given what they need for free?
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I think we’re all arguing the same stuff here. But we’re mixed up on definitions.
Yes, you are clearly mixed up on definitions.
Your “available movement” doesn’t change from 30ft. during a Standard Action Bull Rush to your “available movement” being 5ft during a Quick Bull Rush.
How many times do I have to say it? Quick Bull Rush has NOTHING to do with your available movement. Your available movement is determined by the type of action your are taking. Quick Bull Rush does not have an action type. It replaces a single melee attack in some sort of Full Round action with a Bull Rush.
I think you’re mixing up available movement with a 5ft step.
What does this even mean? The 5' step is one possible example of the amount of movement available. Specifically, it is the amount of movement available with any Full Round action which doesn't allow any OTHER movement (e.g. a Full Attack action). If you take a Full Attack action your only available movement is a 5' step. Adding a Quick Bull Rush to that Full Attack action DOES NOT CHANGE THAT. You still only have 5' of "available movement".
Go check the rules on a Full Attack Action or Full Round Action. It says you can take a 5ft step. Which is a Miscellaneous Action. It doesn’t say your “available movement” is 5ft.
Let's quote it;
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step.
Do you know what it means if the 'only movement you can take is a 5' step'? It means that the amount of movement you have available is 5'. You might even call 5' your "available movement".
They don't have to use the exact same bloody words every time. The terms mean the same thing.
Otherwise, if it did, then circling mongoose and combat patrol would also be limited to 5ft as well.
Nonsense. As I have repeated over and over and over again now, each action type specifies how much movement is available while performing that action. There is absolutely no reason that they would ALL have to use only a 5' step... just as there is absolutely no reason that they should all allow up to base speed.
Each action type specifies an amount of movement allowed. That is the "available movement"... because that's what the words MEAN.
With a Full Attack action the "[b]only/b] movement" allowed is a 5' step. Your insistence that you can move up to Base Speed with a Full Attack if it includes a Quick Bull Rush directly contradicts the stated rule. You can move up to Base Speed with a Quick Bull Rush on OTHER action types (e.g. Combat Patrol, Circling Mongoose, Spring-Heeled Reaping) or even up to two times Base Speed with Quick Bull Rush on a Charge action... but NOT on a Full Attack action. The available movement for each action type is different.