Why is there no reduce / enlarge monster spell?

[Yqatuba]

All of the other "(verb) person" spells also have a "(verb) monster" spell that works on any creature type. And what level would the spells be?

[deuxhero]

WotC 3E design team would be the real people to ask, but my best guess is it's because size mods don't scale linearly (weapon die increases and reach being the obvious ones). Restricting it to only a "Person" version means most uses will be on small and medium characters, where the gain is relatively tame.

If you want a sign of how bad Enlarge Monster would get, look at how Enlarge Person (already a good spell) gets better when Share Spells lets it work on something bigger (Eidolon, Slyvan Sorcerer, Goliath Druid, Animal domain Clerics with some other domain that gives it ect.). Same with Giants (who are now eligible with PF's changes to giant type) when given a reach weapon and some kind of fodder to cast it on them.

[Ryze Kuja]

^---- Exactly. Imagine the nonsense that would ensue with Order of the Reins Cavaliers and their Stampede ability with 10+ Large or Huge-sized animals following them, or every single Druid/Ranger having a Huge AC.

[Derklord]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

or every single Druid/Ranger having a Huge AC.

*cough*

[LordKailas]

Derklord wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

or every single Druid/Ranger having a Huge AC.

*cough*

Yep Yep Yep

[LordKailas]

Yqatuba wrote:

All of the other "(verb) person" spells also have a "(verb) monster" spell that works on any creature type. And what level would the spells be?

There are spells that work on more than humanoids. Just for whatever reason they don't follow a consistent naming convention.

Legendary Proportions is basically an enlarge person that works on a larger variety of creatures. The spells Divine Vessel and Righteous Might increase your size regardless of the caster's creature type (though they are self only).

[Ryze Kuja]

About half the AC list is Small --> Medium, and the other half is Med ---> Large. Animal Growth only makes one size category larger, so a Medium into a Large, or a Large into a Huge. The existence of an Enlarge Monster spell would make all AC's Huge-sized or larger, which is ridiculous if you ask me.

[Ryze Kuja]

I guess it would be fine as long as Animal Growth and Enlarge Monster didn’t stack, and if Enlarge Monster was a higher level spell that affected all other creatures.

[Derklord]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

I guess it would be fine as long as Animal Growth and Enlarge Monster didn’t stack, and if Enlarge Monster was a higher level spell that affected all other creatures.

Size change effects do not stack. Note: The increase at 4th or 7th level is seperate from that.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

About half the AC list is Small --> Medium, and the other half is Med ---> Large. Animal Growth only makes one size category larger, so a Medium into a Large, or a Large into a Huge. The existence of an Enlarge Monster spell would make all AC's Huge-sized or larger, which is ridiculous if you ask me.

What the hell are you even talking about? an Enlarge Monster wouldn't do anything for animal companions that Animal Growth doesn't already do.

[Orodhen]

Saurian Champions and Mammoth Riders can get Gargantuan companions, which is pretty funny.

[Ryze Kuja]

Derklord wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

I guess it would be fine as long as Animal Growth and Enlarge Monster didn’t stack, and if Enlarge Monster was a higher level spell that affected all other creatures.

Size changes do not stack.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

About half the AC list is Small --> Medium, and the other half is Med ---> Large. Animal Growth only makes one size category larger, so a Medium into a Large, or a Large into a Huge. The existence of an Enlarge Monster spell would make all AC's Huge-sized or larger, which is ridiculous if you ask me.

What the hell are oyu even talking about? an Enlarge Monster wouldn't do anything for animal companions that Animal Growth doesn't already do.

Exactly. I guess I incorrectly assumed that the point of Enlarge Monster would be to stack with Animal Growth.

I’m currently doing a Gestalt campaign and one of the PC’s is lvl 15 Centaur Order of the Reins Cavalier / Druid who is already doing his stampede stuff and he puts Animal Growth on 3 of his Hippogriffs to make them huge and they charge with him.

[Lemartes]

Orodhen wrote:

Saurian Champions and Mammoth Riders can get Gargantuan companions, which is pretty funny.

I think you mean huge? I'm not seeing how they go to Gargantuan.

[Orodhen]

Lemartes wrote:

Orodhen wrote:

Saurian Champions and Mammoth Riders can get Gargantuan companions, which is pretty funny.

I think you mean huge? I'm not seeing how they go to Gargantuan.

Slap on Animal Growth or a Dire Collar to their Huge companion.

[Lemartes]

Okay I thought you mean just base class abilities. I'll have to look into a dire collar. :)

[deuxhero]

Keep in mind Animal Growth is still restricted by type, has a more significant level increase, and was nerfed in PF (used to increase multiple animals, though unless the party had multiple ACs it was practically only ever single target) but it's still not only a good spell but a great one.

[Gorbacz]

Let's start with the obvious answer - such spell would result in the GM spending half an hour recalculating the stats of a monster. PF1 is painfully unwieldy to GM enough.

[Kimera757]

Gorbacz wrote:

Let's start with the obvious answer - such spell would result in the GM spending half an hour recalculating the stats of a monster. PF1 is painfully unwieldy to GM enough.

They could come up with a simple template. Giant monster: +3 to hit, +4 to damage, +1 die size, -2 touch AC... Even if it's not following the size change rules strictly, the bonus would always be the same.

[KahnyaGnorc]

However, Enlarge Person grants only set bonuses/penalties, not whatever the next size category is. +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 Attack, -1 AC, +1 die size, and whatever reach. The size increase template in the Bestiary is actually stronger than that.

[Kimera757]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

However, Enlarge Person grants only set bonuses/penalties, not whatever the next size category is. +2 Str, -2 Dex, -1 Attack, -1 AC, +1 die size, and whatever reach. The size increase template in the Bestiary is actually stronger than that.

Enlarge Person can't give the entire set of bonuses because it would be too powerful for a 1st or 2nd-level spell. Animal Growth is 5th-level and seems about right, IMO.

I wish Righteous Might stayed that way. Instead it cut bonuses and randomly gave damage reduction. I'd love to know why.

[Yqatuba]

I figured it would be just like enlarge/reduce person mechanically, only it works on any monster and is higher level. BTW, what level would be reasonable? 4 maybe?

[Ouranou]

My Occultist made good use of this focus power, usually afer someone summoned a T-Rex...

Size Alteration (Sp): As a standard action, you can expend 1 point of mental focus and touch a creature to alter its size. You can increase or decrease the creature’s size by one step, as enlarge person or reduce person but not limited by the creature’s type. If the creature is hostile toward you, using this ability requires a successful melee touch attack, and the creature can attempt a Fortitude save to negate the effect. This effect lasts for 1 round per occultist level you possess. You can’t use this ability on a creature that is already subject to an effect that alters its size.