Where's the reason to level an envoy past 8-12?


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Other classes get cooler and more powerful options as they level. The soldier and operative get to shoot three times, the operative opens up an entire buffet of new powerful options from full on invisibility to having bat shark repellent if they need it, the mystic starts getting higher level spells...

But the envoy is still capped at level 8 abilities. From 8 all the way till 20.

Even worse, by definition after your 2nd or third pick you're not only stagnating in your options, you're picking less and less useful more and more situational options. The envoy doesn't have the action economy to pick up more tricks: they just can't make use of them in a single round. Its barely growing out and it's, if anything, growing down not up.

With the com as a chance to change this having passed it doesn't seem like there's any desire/no one sees a need to do fix this. This is a pretty big problem when one of starfinders aparent design goals was NOT to break/devolve into rocket tag at double digit levels.

Sovereign Court

I think COM adds a lot of new improvizations/talents, so that 12 levels might not be enough anymore to take all of them.


More powerful versions of the main improvisations seem like they could fix this easily, though it's a pretty bland solution:

Even more improved get'em (+3), Get'em good (+4)

Swift feint, Free feint

Inspiring pep talk (heal hp), Coach ( heal resolve)

I know it doesn't help the vanilla envoy, but perhaps the alternate envoys have a better career down the path?


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Ascalaphus wrote:
I think COM adds a lot of new improvizations/talents, so that 12 levels might not be enough anymore to take all of them.

COM adds stuff up to 14th level for Envoys...

...but most of it is strictly inferior to the stuff other classes got...

...and pretty much none of the reasonably good stuff is legal for Society play.

I love Envoys, but they got hosed in the COM.

The Combat Expertise option just made me mad. Sacrificing the Envoy's mono-skill supremacy (the only thing they have over the Operative) to give them a weak trick attack that barely scales and can't be used with Clever Attack or other standard action attacks that Envoy is usually good for. You're almost better off taking Double Tap, except that doesn't benefit from Get 'Em!

I could go on, but I won't.


Ascalaphus wrote:
I think COM adds a lot of new improvizations/talents, so that 12 levels might not be enough anymore to take all of them.

Being able to do more things isn't being able to do more powerful things. If the mystic topped out at third level spells but the spells known kept increasing then they'd be growing out but not up. Thats what the envoy is facing here. They can learn new third level "spells" but not 4th 5th or 6th ones.

Not all improvisations are created equal. After 1 or arguably 2 you're not growing out, you're growing out slower as you pick weaker improvs, more situational ones that you'll use less, and ones that don't work as well with your character

Everything the envoy does it does in combat. Any tricks beyond 12 compete with their action economy.


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I can see where you are coming from, but it seems like you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Everything the envoy does it does in combat. Any tricks beyond 12 compete with their action economy.

Is combat the only thing of note in your games? If so, then Envoy is going to be lackluster no matter what.

In fact COM added Combat Expertise to try and help out with people trying to play Envoy in a combat-only group of players.

The point of Envoy is to be the master of the rest of the game. The Improvisations are so that you feel marginally viable during combat.

I feel that if you buff the Improvisations too much, then the class as a whole will be overpowered when being played in a game where there is more to the game than just combat.


breithauptclan wrote:

Is combat the only thing of note in your games? If so, then Envoy is going to be lackluster no matter what.

No. I'm not putting a square peg in a round hole.

No. Combat is not the only thing in my games.
No, my characters are not one dimensional kill machines, thank you.

But when your classes major unique feature either only works in combat at all (get em) or pretty much only useful when you're in rounds (hurry) pointing out "hey, expanding options for an envoy don't work nearly as well for an envoy as a spellcaster. who can make use of their options outside of combat, because your action economy makes for a precariously narrow choke point " is a very rational counter to the -but you get to grow out- idea.

Follow?


As to the Envoys skill boosters

They have a similar problem. They're all geared to being available at level 1 or 3 ish. After you've picked up the 3 or 4 that work well with your character you're picking ones that work less and less well rather than increasing the power to take better and better ones.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

But when your classes major unique feature either only works in combat at all (get em) or pretty much only useful when you're in rounds (hurry) pointing out "hey, expanding options for an envoy don't work nearly as well for an envoy as a spellcaster. who can make use of their options outside of combat, because your action economy makes for a precariously narrow choke point " is a very rational counter to the -but you get to grow out- idea.

Follow?

Somewhat. I'm also comparing against other classes too besides just spellcasting classes. Soldier doesn't gain much at higher levels either by the numbers. Fighting styles are rather niche for the most part. And gear boosts too - once you have the ones for your primary gear, what do you choose next? How useful are gear boosts for gear that you don't use any more? Solarian revelations it is a bit of a debate: Do you keep yourself balanced knowing that half your revelations are going to be rather pointless during any given battle? Or do you go all-in on one side and just take the penalty on rounds until zenith? If you choose the first - the one the book recommends - how does it feel picking a revelation at a mid to high level that you know you are never going to actually use?

All of these classes have this problem to a greater or lesser extent. Not everything that you get to pick is actually going to be useful all the time.

But I do agree that Envoy has it worse than most.

What I don't follow, is what exactly you are proposing to do about it. The improvisations already printed are already rather useful even at higher levels. So giving out even cooler ones at high levels wouldn't fix what you are pointing out - they still couldn't do more than they have actions for in any round. It would just obsolete the improvisations that they had from the early levels.

It is like saying that a high level spellcaster gets access to 6th level spells, but the 1st and 2nd levels spells no longer do anything noteworthy in combat.

Hey, wait a second...


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breithauptclan wrote:

I can see where you are coming from, but it seems like you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Everything the envoy does it does in combat. Any tricks beyond 12 compete with their action economy.

Is combat the only thing of note in your games? If so, then Envoy is going to be lackluster no matter what.

In fact COM added Combat Expertise to try and help out with people trying to play Envoy in a combat-only group of players.

The point of Envoy is to be the master of the rest of the game. The Improvisations are so that you feel marginally viable during combat.

I feel that if you buff the Improvisations too much, then the class as a whole will be overpowered when being played in a game where there is more to the game than just combat.

Aside from either helping damage at VERY low level or helping with very specific action economy combos, combat expertise does very little to benefit a combat only group. Its lack of meaningful scaling means it's basically just a way to combine your demoralize with a standard attack instead of combining get 'em or a weakened version of feint with your attack. I can choose improve around it and make it work, but it absolutely did not raise the level of combat effectiveness an envoy can achieve at all.


breithauptclan wrote:
Soldier doesn't gain much at higher levels either by the numbers.

Absolutely not

The soldiers primary fighting styles gain 9th 13th and 17th level abilities.

Soldiers onslaught lets a soldier use 3 attacks instead of 2 in a full attack.

Gear boosts suffer from the phenemenon discussed with envoys, but gear boosts aren't the entirety of the soldier class. Improvisations and expertise talents are the whole of the envoy class.

(Do not try to give me some stormwind esque argument about the deeper meaning of the avacado of the soul in the envoy)

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Fighting styles are rather niche for the most part.

There are a lot of really good higher level abilities.

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- how does it feel picking a revelation at a mid to high level that you know you are never going to actually use?

Better than being told you have to pick a low level Revelation again from 8 to 20.

Or just suck up the extra round.

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What I don't follow, is what exactly you are proposing to do about it.

Add some high level envoy improvisations (10 12 14 16 18) and some expertise talents wouldn't hurt.

Quote:
It is like saying that a high level spellcaster gets access to 6th level spells, but the 1st and 2nd levels spells no longer do anything noteworthy in combat....

No. Its exactly like saying you ONLY get more second level spells known from level 8 on.


HammerJack wrote:
Aside from either helping damage at VERY low level or helping with very specific action economy combos, combat expertise does very little to benefit a combat only group. Its lack of meaningful scaling means it's basically just a way to combine your demoralize with a standard attack instead of combining get 'em or a weakened version of feint with your attack. I can choose improve around it and make it work, but it absolutely did not raise the level of combat effectiveness an envoy can achieve at all.

Well, certainly the improvements to combat ability are minor at best. But if the cost is giving up a bonus to skill rolls that are never rolled, the benefit is better than nothing.

And I still feel like this is for groups of gamers where they decide together that someone has to draw the short straw and play an Envoy because the group needs someone to spam Get 'em every round. Now they can do slightly more damage and apply shaken while doing it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Skills that are never rolled? Skills on the expertise list or rolled in combat by envoys, when using a number of improvisations, some feats, or Combat Expertise itself.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Better than being told you have to pick a low level Revelation again from 8 to 20.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Its exactly like saying you ONLY get more second level spells known from level 8 on.

I don't think it follows. The difference being that the Envoy abilities don't become obsolete like low level spells and most other class features.

If a level 15 Solarian player pulls out Dark Matter while in photon mode in order to give himself DR 5/- for one round, people may think it is a waste of a move action. Even using it while in graviton mode to give DR 7/- for the rest of the battle seems a bit lacking. But that is because it is a 2nd level ability.

Most Envoy abilities that I hear people talking about using don't become obsolete like that. Being able to shuttle the melee fighter into position to use a full attack on his turn doesn't stop being useful at any character level. Stellar Rush actually fits the same argument in that it unlocks a new way of doing something that remains useful even at high level - but for Solarian that is the exception rather than the norm.

Spellcasting is similar. At level 16 when a Mystic gets their first two 6th level spells, what do they pick? Usually powered up versions of spells that they already know. Often Mystic Cure and Mind Thrust. So what do they gain that is actually new? Some level 3 niche utility spell that they swap in.

-------

So here is my idea.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Add some high level envoy improvisations (10 12 14 16 18)

You want the Envoy to behave like the other classes. Their low level abilities become obsolete at high level and they have to buy new and more powerful stuff.

Easy. Just split out the autoscaling powerups in the existing improvisations.

8th level

Watch Out: you can choose the ability to use this without your allies falling prone.

12th level

Don't quit: buy the ability to remove the conditions instead of suppressing them.
Improved hurry: You can buy the ability to give out a standard action instead of a move action.

15th level

Inspiring boost: You can get the ability to restore 3x your level in stamina points.
Inspiring oration: You can get the ability to restore 3x your level in stamina points to your entire team.

And so on.

Now you have a bunch of cool and powerful high level class abilities to agonize over which ones you want to get.


breithauptclan wrote:

So here is my idea.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Add some high level envoy improvisations (10 12 14 16 18)

You want the Envoy to behave like the other classes. Their low level abilities become obsolete at high level and they have to buy new and more powerful stuff.

Easy. Just split out the autoscaling powerups in the existing improvisations.

8th level

Watch Out: you can choose the ability to use this without your allies falling prone.

12th level

Don't quit: buy the ability to remove the conditions instead of suppressing them.
Improved hurry: You can buy the ability to give out a standard action instead of a move action.

15th level

Inspiring boost: You can get the ability to restore 3x your level in stamina points.
Inspiring oration: You can get the ability to restore 3x your level in stamina points to your entire team.

And so on.

Now you have a bunch of cool and powerful high level class abilities to agonize over which ones you want to get.

I genuinely can't tell if you're serious or not. Forcing the Envoy to take new Improvisations just to get the (somewhat weak) scaling they were going to get already is not what BNG is asking for. You're literally taking something away, repackaging it as a shiny new thing, and forcing them to pay for it again.

How does that fix the Envoy's problem of having disappointing high level options?


HammerJack wrote:
Skills that are never rolled? Skills on the expertise list or rolled in combat by envoys, when using a number of improvisations, some feats, or Combat Expertise itself.

Clarifying here. This is for a standard (CRB only) Envoy.

In a wargaming group, where battles play out Final Fantasy style - the enemies line up on one side of the field and the party lines up on the other side and they take turns slugging it out. No stealth, no recon, no diplomacy, no hunting, no tracking, little to no tactical movement, no information checks for strengths or weaknesses... Just your HP, AC, Attack Bonus, and damage. And nothing of note besides combat ever happens.

In a wargaming group, I don't think anyone is going to be rolling sense motive - which is the skill expertise given automatically. At 1st level you also get to pick one skill from a short list. I would go for Intimidate for demoralize or Bluff for feint. Especially since there are improvisations that would use those. I can't see any of the others ever being used in combat. Maybe Medicine for healing outside of combat.

If there is an Operative in the party, they are better at applying flat-footed than the Envoy with feint or Clever Feint.

At 9th level you can use expertise on anything you have bought Skill Focus on, but who is spending a feat for Skill Focus in a wargaming group?

So what would you use your expertise die for? Would it be worth trading out for Combat Expertise?


Dracomicron wrote:

I genuinely can't tell if you're serious or not. Forcing the Envoy to take new Improvisations just to get the (somewhat weak) scaling they were going to get already is not what BNG is asking for. You're literally taking something away, repackaging it as a shiny new thing, and forcing them to pay for it again.

How does that fix the Envoy's problem of having disappointing high level options?

No, that was very much tongue-in-cheek.

My thinking is that the existing options - even though they are initially available at low level - are all still useful even at high level.

So if you haven't yet taken Hurry by 16th level, that is still a good choice for your 16th level improvisation. Even though it was initially available at 4th level.

So why do we need to come up with more ever-more-powerful improvisations to offer at high levels?

I agree with Ascalaphus. There are already more cool and powerful abilities already printed than I have slots for on my character sheet.


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breithauptclan wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Skills that are never rolled? Skills on the expertise list or rolled in combat by envoys, when using a number of improvisations, some feats, or Combat Expertise itself.

Clarifying here. This is for a standard (CRB only) Envoy.

In a wargaming group, where battles play out Final Fantasy style - the enemies line up on one side of the field and the party lines up on the other side and they take turns slugging it out. No stealth, no recon, no diplomacy, no hunting, no tracking, little to no tactical movement, no information checks for strengths or weaknesses... Just your HP, AC, Attack Bonus, and damage. And nothing of note besides combat ever happens.

In a wargaming group, I don't think anyone is going to be rolling sense motive - which is the skill expertise given automatically. At 1st level you also get to pick one skill from a short list. I would go for Intimidate for demoralize or Bluff for feint. Especially since there are improvisations that would use those. I can't see any of the others ever being used in combat. Maybe Medicine for healing outside of combat.

If there is an Operative in the party, they are better at applying flat-footed than the Envoy with feint or Clever Feint.

At 9th level you can use expertise on anything you have bought Skill Focus on, but who is spending a feat for Skill Focus in a wargaming group?

So what would you use your expertise die for? Would it be worth trading out for Combat Expertise?

Even CRB only, while the operative (if present) is going apply flat-footed more reliably than the envoy after 7th level, having the envoy apply flat-footer instead allows other trick attack debillitations, like bleed, stagger, or stun, and is still a positive even in this "everyone stands still on two sides and attacks" style.


The Ragi wrote:

More powerful versions of the main improvisations seem like they could fix this easily, though it's a pretty bland solution:

Even more improved get'em (+3), Get'em good (+4)

Swift feint, Free feint

Inspiring pep talk (heal hp), Coach ( heal resolve)

I know it doesn't help the vanilla envoy, but perhaps the alternate envoys have a better career down the path?

While I enjoy the jest, the Envoy's problems doesn't lie in the numbers, at least for me it does not. Most of the Envoys core abilities are mechanically useful. The true issue is action economy and the core chassis of the class as well as the apparent design philosophy of the class being "Features that can be used all day" that as a counter-balance get completely shafted in the impact department or in convoluted restrictions.

If the class had a lot more reactions, swift actions and abilities that lasted more than a meager round (that forces the Envoy to be a spammer class otherwise you're not doing much but rarely hitting with your d4 pistols) while also gaining features over levels that all class that have more interesting and better options also gain, then maybe the class would be infinitely more fun.

The only thing I know is that I will NEVER play an Envoy again, after playing with it for many sections, my expectations were shattered, despite me loving the hell out of my character.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
If the class had a lot more reactions, swift actions and abilities that lasted more than a meager round

This would certainly help, and I do think that cheaper action costs and improved durations (to make having many abilities more useful) would help with expanding envoys into higher levels.

Quote:
rarely hitting with your d4 pistols

I think I found two of the main factors in the class not working for you, though.


Seriously though, why don't envoys have 14+ improvs? Could they just not think of any?

Solarians, operatives, mechanics, etc. Would have been functional if their tricks ended at 12 too, but they get more goodies as they level.

Even just some improvs that improve the action economy of other improvs would be nice. A triple improvisation turn at level 14 could be worth not multiclassing away from the base class after 12.


breithauptclan wrote:
I don't think it follows. The difference being that the Envoy abilities don't become obsolete like low level spells and most other class features.

I don't think this pattern holds.

Sharpshooter is always an effective +2 to hit for ranged, blitz always has +4 init and ten feet to move, the solarion always has a standard action charge. The operatives take 10 on a skill check is still an I win button (and one they're probably expanding with more skill focuses at that point) the star shaman has a blinding ability,

Quote:
If a level 15 Solarian player pulls out Dark Matter while in photon mode in order to give himself DR 5/- for one round, people may think it is a waste of a move action. Even using it while in graviton mode to give DR 7/- for the rest of the battle seems a bit lacking. But that is because it is a 2nd level ability.

The ability is terrible, mostly because every melee character takes the DR feat or pick up ablative armor.

Quote:
Most Envoy abilities that I hear people talking about using don't become obsolete like that. Being able to shuttle the melee fighter into position to use a full attack on his turn doesn't stop being useful at any character level.

It certainly gets less useful once the entire melee party has haste circuits or the spellcaster throws up haste. There are still combos you can do with the two (haste action guarded step in full attack guarded step out) but it stops being the difference between an attack and a full attack.

Quote:
Spellcasting is similar. At level 16 when a Mystic gets their first two 6th level spells, what do they pick? Usually powered up versions of spells that they already know. Often Mystic Cure and Mind Thrust. So what do they gain that is actually new? Some level 3 niche utility spell that they swap in.

Your mystic would get two level 5 spells added, adding more spells of your second highest level is nothing to sneeze at.

And not every low level spell is useless at high level. Mystic cure 1 scales with your HP (since you can run up tap the tank and give them your HP and rely on your staminia) share language is something you always want in a first contact situation (whether or not you start it off with tongues)

Quote:
Now you have a bunch of cool and powerful high level class abilities to agonize over which ones you want to get.

No, now you've added a bunch of mid level abilities to high level, so instead of sticking with the class till 12 you now only stay till 4 or 8 and then bail.


Lightning Raven wrote:
While I enjoy the jest, the Envoy's problems doesn't lie in the numbers, at least for me it does not.

Jest?

The question was "Where's the reason to level an envoy past 8-12?".

Right now, it seems to be none.

But if you lock stronger versions of low level abilities behind high level requirements, a mechanic already used in the class, at least you'd have a reason to level up an envoy beyond middle level. I even suggested upgrading abilities by lowering the action cost.

Lightning Raven wrote:
otherwise you're not doing much but rarely hitting with your d4 pistols

Well, using unwieldy longarms or heavy weapons would be a good start. 18 dexterity on first level also.


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Lightning Raven wrote:


If the class had a lot more reactions, swift actions and abilities that lasted more than a meager round (that forces the Envoy to be a spammer class otherwise you're not doing much but rarely hitting with your d4 pistols)

That would be addressed in the spoony bard thread. But players can solve that problem now: grab an unwieldy weapon and a good str or dex and whack things. The cost is pretty much nill to your buffing or talky talk abilities.


I meant the D4 pistols more like the baseline of the class, my Envoy invested in Longarm proficiency from the get-go.

It was one criticism of the chassis of the class. It doesn't have a good one. At all. And its main strength is outshined by an Operative doing zero effort for pretty much every part of the game.

The Envoy needed better proficiency and more class features that made the class smoother at higher levels. Improvisations like Expanded Attunement,Universal Expression, Clever Improvisations and Expert Attack, should've been baked into the class.

Every other class get absolutely the same things the Envoy gains, the optional features, while also gaining more features over levels and the classes with the "weakest" chassis are Spellcasters that just completely compensate with the powerful spells they can choose that only gets stronger and stronger over levels.


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breithauptclan wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Skills that are never rolled? Skills on the expertise list or rolled in combat by envoys, when using a number of improvisations, some feats, or Combat Expertise itself.

Clarifying here. This is for a standard (CRB only) Envoy.

In a wargaming group, where battles play out Final Fantasy style - the enemies line up on one side of the field and the party lines up on the other side and they take turns slugging it out. No stealth, no recon, no diplomacy, no hunting, no tracking, little to no tactical movement, no information checks for strengths or weaknesses... Just your HP, AC, Attack Bonus, and damage. And nothing of note besides combat ever happens.

In a wargaming group, I don't think anyone is going to be rolling sense motive - which is the skill expertise given automatically. At 1st level you also get to pick one skill from a short list. I would go for Intimidate for demoralize or Bluff for feint. Especially since there are improvisations that would use those. I can't see any of the others ever being used in combat. Maybe Medicine for healing outside of combat.

If there is an Operative in the party, they are better at applying flat-footed than the Envoy with feint or Clever Feint.

At 9th level you can use expertise on anything you have bought Skill Focus on, but who is spending a feat for Skill Focus in a wargaming group?

So what would you use your expertise die for? Would it be worth trading out for Combat Expertise?

Put bluntly: why exactly should the rules bend over backwards for players and groups who are using the game for purposes that are, simply put, Not As Intended? Sure, you *can* do a 100% combat game, but you shouldn't then complain about all this "unnecessary" rules stuff.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Inspiring Oration and inspiring boost auto improve at lv 15 but can be chosen at lower levels.

Wayfinders

So, what are you suggesting for envoys? Are you suggesting that we multiclass instead of leveling in our class? And what would you suggest we do, if so?

At the moment, I still am finding improvisations to take on Charli, so I am likely to go envoy all the way to 12. But I am curious to see what you all think.

Hmm


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Hey, the baseline of the envoy class also includes Basic Melee, and throwing spears is a way to do perfectly reasonable damage. The D4 pistol is a choice, even with only in class proficiencies.


Charli Poshkettle wrote:

So, what are you suggesting for envoys? Are you suggesting that we multiclass instead of leveling in our class? And what would you suggest we do, if so?

At the moment, I still am finding improvisations to take on Charli, so I am likely to go envoy all the way to 12. But I am curious to see what you all think.

Hmm

The doom and gloom optimized advice is to go soldier or something else at 12 when you get the most out of your improvs and have enough of them. You can stick to the class, but there are sharply diminishing returns.

A couple of better improvs, some method of improved action economy and, possibly controversally, full BAB would do a lot for people who want to stick to the class all the way to 20.


For an envoy with some investment in intelligence a level in biohacker provides a nice boost.


HammerJack wrote:
Hey, the baseline of the envoy class also includes Basic Melee, and throwing spears is a way to do perfectly reasonable damage. The D4 pistol is a choice, even with only in class proficiencies.

What about features that every other classes get over levels? They get better at doing a lot of stuff while also having the same amount of options the envoys get. Granted, the Envoys get the Expertise Skills, but they're mainly just re-rolls for skills (amazing mechanically but boring as hell) or situational benefits that will not come up in a normal campaign (hacking faster, knowing when an enemy is under mind-affecting influence, etc.).

Maybe I expected the class to realize well the concept of a Takeshi Kovacz or Malcolm Reynolds, rather than a glorified sidekick-type cheerleader (there are a ton of abilities that evoke a cheerleader chanting, specially when it happens every wound).


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Charli Poshkettle wrote:
So, what are you suggesting for envoys? Are you suggesting that we multiclass instead of leveling in our class? And what would you suggest we do, if so?

Well, Ideally this issue gets an (n+1)th look (where N is the number of times they've looked at it already) , and with people starting to actually play the levels of the envoy in home games OP and APs they realize.. yeah there's really nothing there and start throwing some stuff in.

Failing that, my tiny mouse with a giant gun has a level of soldier already, so may dip biohacker for int to perception before adding more soldier. Someone may have a better idea.

Quote:

At the moment, I still am finding improvisations to take on Charli, so I am likely to go envoy all the way to 12. But I am curious to see what you all think.

Besides expert attack and improved hurry nothing is really calling to me. I'm taking the feat lines as feints, so her actions will eventually be "look a monkey" get em FIRE! . With haste replacing feint as the party has an operative or as needed. I can't see anything replacing a near maxed bonus hit 3d12+14 attack + get em on a standard action (besides maybe improved hurry getting two spells off), and having feint hurry and actually moving competing for the move action means its pretty full. Anything else adds to the situational diminishing returns.

edit hmmm.. expertise talent going from 1d6+2 to 1d8+2 may be a reason to go to 13. Even losing the 1 bab, thats 1.5 to hit when you spend a resolve point which.. at that level is almost all your attacks.


Lightning Raven wrote:

Most of the Envoys core abilities are mechanically useful. The true issue is action economy and the core chassis of the class as well as the apparent design philosophy of the class being "Features that can be used all day" that as a counter-balance get completely shafted in the impact department or in convoluted restrictions.

If the class had a lot more reactions, swift actions and abilities that lasted more than a meager round

This is another thing I have seen several times in this thread that I don't really understand.

The existing abilities are good.
In fact, we don't have enough actions in a round to use all of them.
So therefore we need to add more and better abilities.

??? How is that going to fix the really good problem that Envoy has?

That is like a Mystic player saying, "At 14th level I can't cast all of my really powerful 2nd level spells known in one round. So I need to be given more 5th level spells known. That will fix the problem."

So what, exactly, are you looking for?

If we increase the duration of the improvisation effects (something like solarian where the abilities last for the remainder of the fight or until some mega ability is used?) the Envoy player will not use that extra action economy to make full attacks after using one of them - the Envoy player will still stand in one location spending their entire turn spamming improvisation bonuses and penalties onto everyone. Now the only difference is that after the first couple rounds of battle, the team gets the +1 morale bonus to all of the enemies, and all of the enemies have both flat-footed and shaken.

Similarly if we make the abilities take swift actions instead of move actions. That just means that the Envoy player can spam more of them each round.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:

Most of the Envoys core abilities are mechanically useful. The true issue is action economy and the core chassis of the class as well as the apparent design philosophy of the class being "Features that can be used all day" that as a counter-balance get completely shafted in the impact department or in convoluted restrictions.

If the class had a lot more reactions, swift actions and abilities that lasted more than a meager round

This is another thing I have seen several times in this thread that I don't really understand.

The existing abilities are good.
In fact, we don't have enough actions in a round to use all of them.
So therefore we need to add more and better abilities.

??? How is that going to fix the really good problem that Envoy has?

That is like a Mystic player saying, "At 14th level I can't cast all of my really powerful 2nd level spells known in one round. So I need to be given more 5th level spells known. That will fix the problem."

So what, exactly, are you looking for?

If we increase the duration of the improvisation effects (something like solarian where the abilities last for the remainder of the fight or until some mega ability is used?) the Envoy player will not use that extra action economy to make full attacks after using one of them - the Envoy player will still stand in one location spending their entire turn spamming improvisation bonuses and penalties onto everyone. Now the only difference is that after the first couple rounds of battle, the team gets the +1 morale bonus to all of the enemies, and all of the enemies have both flat-footed and shaken.

Similarly if we make the abilities take swift actions instead of move actions. That just means that the Envoy player can spam more of them each round.

To be clear and very reductive, only the "three main paths" of the Envoy are actually acceptable and they all could be worlds better for the class. I'm talking bout Clever Feint (and upgrades), Get'em (and upgrades) and Dispiriting Taunt (and upgrades). Everything else is just highly situational and don't even are that good at solving their situation, sometimes they're even worth the action spent, like Inspiring Boost where you heal for 9 STAMINA only to have your ally suffer 20+ damage on the next round. These are just examples of course.

The core gameplay loop of the Envoy is unsatisfying to use and is very restraining. You have very minor abilities that can be spammed, but they are all very low impact based on the fact that they are supposed to be "limitless"... While this may look fine in a vacuum, in play, this "limitless" nature will hardly ever come in play. Hardly any party will ever keep moving forward if a good chunk of their members is out of important resources, so the Envoy's "main strength" and biggest balancing parameter is borderline meaningless for most parties.

Which comes to the point we're trying to make: the class abilities should have more impact. The Class should have an actual progression. The class should have more features baked into it like every other class. Just look at the Mechanic. The class gets a great chassis with tons of features over levels, gets to make a huge choice right at the beginning that severely alters the class' playstyle and on top of it it also has the same options the envoy have and many of those significantly impact the class based on what the player wants out of their drone or combat prowess.

Meanwhile, the Envoy has been picking minor features that only last one round, doesn't solve their very situational problems or outright aren't worth expending the actions because the benefits must have low impact because it's an "endless" ability.

As for Spellcasting classes, while their lower level spells will not remain a threat in combat (which I also dislike) they will still have plenty of good utility in and out of combat, specially because as you level up all of your spells get better and the party will always move at that class's pace because of how important spells are, so in truth, an Envoys abilities are limited by a spellcasters resources.

The main goal of anyone complaining about the class is to have an Envoy being able to make actual choices from time to time, without the constant need to be re-spamming everything or using an ability that only serves for one purpose and that particular ability making zero difference in the matter.

Just look at the Pathfinder 2e's Bard, they're definitely a smoother and better class to play with and they share a lot of the same design paradigms. I know they're different games but the Bard is supposed to be a support-focused class with a ton of skills to use, mainly social skills, while having spammable abilities that only that class can give. Does this sound familiar?
Well, PF2e's Bard has a standard chassis (like other spellcasters) and spells on top of it.


breithauptclan wrote:


??? How is that going to fix the really good problem that Envoy has?

It would give value to learning more improvisations, which its currently lacking.

Quote:
That is like a Mystic player saying, "At 14th level I can't cast all of my really powerful 2nd level spells known in one round. So I need to be given more 5th level spells known. That will fix the problem."

1) No. It would be like asking for quicken spell, which.. does actually solve the action economy problem

2) A spellcaster can solve the problem before the combat starts. Even with starfinders limited spellcasting, a mystic can have tongues on the party diplomat to talk to the ancient space narwhal that otherwise doesn't understand you, fix the humans nightvision problem with darkvision and have life bubble going to.. well solve most OOC arguments about whether anyone had armor seals on... when you walk into the dungeon without spending a combat action.

In order for envoy abilities to have the problem solving power that spells do, the envoy would need to be able to pick from as big a list as the spell list... and he doesn't get that many picks from that big of a pool.

Quote:
Now the only difference is that after the first couple rounds of battle, the team gets the +1 morale bonus to all of the enemies, and all of the enemies have both flat-footed and shaken.

Objectively, no.

If get em lasts multiple rounds, clever attack gains value even if you have improved get em. Right now getting clever attack does nothing if you have improved get em (unless there's 2 envoys in the party or something weird)

Quote:
Similarly if we make the abilities take swift actions instead of move actions. That just means that the Envoy player can spam more of them each round.

But it gives more/some/ANY value to having that extra option, which they currently don't have. A new ability should be a moment for "yay" especially a high level one. For an envoy anything after you've finished off your tree at level 12 is just "meh" at best


edit Doh, forgot you can improve get em as a move action.


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breithauptclan wrote:
This is another thing I have seen several times in this thread that I don't really understand.

Its the combination of

1) you are a 15th level character receiving level 8 or lower abilities.

2) because you picked the best, second best, third best abilities out of the pile, you're then not only picking an 8th level ability, but the third or fourth best one.

3) because the action economy of envoys that third favorite choice isn't as useful as it might otherwise be because of the opportunity cost with the other 2. Hurry as a move action is amazing. Feint as a move action is amazing. Together they are far less than the sum of their parts because they won't combine, they give you options.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
This is another thing I have seen several times in this thread that I don't really understand.

Its the combination of

1) you are a 15th level character receiving level 8 or lower abilities.

2) because you picked the best, second best, third best abilities out of the pile, you're then not only picking an 8th level ability, but the third or fourth best one.

3) because the action economy of envoys that third favorite choice isn't as useful as it might otherwise be because of the opportunity cost with the other 2. Hurry as a move action is amazing. Feint as a move action is amazing. Together they are far less than the sum of their parts because they won't combine, they give you options.

The point, at least for me, is not having enough "great options", but having enough satisfying options and the possibility to use them. With the Envoy you often wonder "is expending my actions on this situational ability is better than just keep spamming my bread-and-butter?", the answer will most of the time be "no".

We all know that being proactive is the best course of action most of the time, so defensive options must be attractive and not restrictive and costly like some of the defensive abilities the Envoy have. Which is why I think if the class had more Swift-actions and reactions it would significantly boost the defensive options just by allowing them to be used along with other abilities.

But what you said is indeed true. There's a point where the Envoy will not have any exciting options to choose anymore. All the choices made were already the ones that excited the player or were superior to the others. By the point there are no more new choices, then the player is picking things that didn't interest him, weren't deemed good enough or don't even fit the concept. By why there must be a reason in the first place? The Envoy is a g~#**$n Starfinder class. It should have all the options other classes have along with the same character progression everyone has!


Metaphysician wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Skills that are never rolled? Skills on the expertise list or rolled in combat by envoys, when using a number of improvisations, some feats, or Combat Expertise itself.

Clarifying here. This is for a standard (CRB only) Envoy.

In a wargaming group, where battles play out Final Fantasy style - the enemies line up on one side of the field and the party lines up on the other side and they take turns slugging it out. No stealth, no recon, no diplomacy, no hunting, no tracking, little to no tactical movement, no information checks for strengths or weaknesses... Just your HP, AC, Attack Bonus, and damage. And nothing of note besides combat ever happens.

In a wargaming group, I don't think anyone is going to be rolling sense motive - which is the skill expertise given automatically. At 1st level you also get to pick one skill from a short list. I would go for Intimidate for demoralize or Bluff for feint. Especially since there are improvisations that would use those. I can't see any of the others ever being used in combat. Maybe Medicine for healing outside of combat.

If there is an Operative in the party, they are better at applying flat-footed than the Envoy with feint or Clever Feint.

At 9th level you can use expertise on anything you have bought Skill Focus on, but who is spending a feat for Skill Focus in a wargaming group?

So what would you use your expertise die for? Would it be worth trading out for Combat Expertise?

Put bluntly: why exactly should the rules bend over backwards for players and groups who are using the game for purposes that are, simply put, Not As Intended? Sure, you *can* do a 100% combat game, but you shouldn't then complain about all this "unnecessary" rules stuff.

My point exactly.

If people are playing a wargame, or even a game where combat is what is valued most, then they shouldn't be complaining that the Envoy looks a bit weak. The class wasn't intended for that type of playstyle.

That doesn't mean that the class is broken and needs fixed.


breithauptclan wrote:

If people are playing a wargame, or even a game where combat is what is valued most, then they shouldn't be complaining that the Envoy looks a bit weak. The class wasn't intended for that type of playstyle.

That doesn't mean that the class is broken and needs fixed.

The stormwind it strong with this one.

breithauptclan wrote:

If people are playing a wargame, or even a game where combat is what is valued most, then they shouldn't be complaining that the Envoy looks a bit weak. The class wasn't intended for that type of playstyle.

That doesn't mean that the class is broken and needs fixed.

The stormwind it strong with this one.

In what kind of game does an envoy live up to high level play that the rest of the party gets? Even in their own areas of expertise.

The sharpshooter soldier is blasting away three people around plunking people through gun ports like they were standing on the pitchers mound of Wrigley Field.

The solarion is full attacking as a standard action

The operative can be in combat hanging upside down over a tank of acid with acid breathing sharks hacking the computer/untying his handcuffs/sneaking past the acid breathing sharks taking 10 like he was sitting in his living room.

Even in the envoys own wheelhouse, in the kind of game where an envoy should be excelling and at the sort of things they should be excelling at where is the equivalent game changing "wow" abilities?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm also a little confused by using "Wargame" to describe a playstyle that doesn't use terrain and tactical movement, but...


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breithauptclan wrote:

My point exactly.

If people are playing a wargame, or even a game where combat is what is valued most, then they shouldn't be complaining that the Envoy looks a bit weak. The class wasn't intended for...

The part that is broken and needs fixing is this:

Every other class has options with a level requirement of 14+. The envoy does not have those options.

They could be lackluster even. The problems is that they do not exist at all.


So I made the claim

breithauptclan wrote:
There are already more cool and powerful abilities already printed than I have slots for on my character sheet.

So I should probably back that up.

Here is what I see for my example character.

Woioko Spacefarer Envoy (level 8)
Stats and feats. I think these are less important for the discussion, but here they are anyway.

Spoiler:

STR 10 +0
DEX 16 +3
CON 11 +0
INT 16 +3
WIS 10 +0
CHA 18 +4

HP 4 + 6*8 = 52
Stamina (6 + 0)*8 = 48
Resolve 8/2 + 4 = 8

Feats
1 - Kip Up (Dropping prone is a good way to increase AC against ranged attacks. Good to not have to spend a precious move action to stand back up though.)
3 - Mobility (Optional)
5 - Skill Focus (Piloting)
7 - Advanced Warning

Skills. Important for expertise and expertise talents.

Spoiler:

8 + INT = 11 feats at full ranks. All are class skills except Survival. Physical Science is a class skill from the Spacefarer theme.

Acrobatics
Computers
Culture
Diplomacy
Engineering
Medicine
Perception
Physical Science
Piloting
Sense Motive
Survival

Expertise skills and talents. Expertise die currently 1d6 + 1

Spoiler:

Expertise skills
0 - Sense Motive
1 - Diplomacy
5 - Computers

Expertise Talents
3 - Well Informed (The GM will thank me greatly for the plot guidance hooks)
7 - Fast Hack

Improvisations

1 - Get 'em
2 - Superior Covering Fire
4 - Spell Gem Understanding (Can't let the spellcaster classes have all the fun) (Can also be used out of combat)
6 - Don't Quit
8 - Improved Get 'em

--------

Out of Combat: I can handle a wilderness exploration scenario. Similarly a derelict spacecraft could be explored the same way using Engineering and Computers as the primary exploration rolls used. I have both of those skills. Talking my way into or out of trouble shouldn't be a problem. Finding someone or something in a city? No one does it better.

In Combat: Primarily using Get 'em and Harrying Fire. If I'm going to miss with the d4 pistol anyway, I might as well make it count. Superior Covering fire is great for dealing with ranged threats trying to focus down characters that are out of position in the open (because of course that never happens). Don't quit for dealing with monsters that are applying debilitating conditions to party members.

--------

Now, things I am looking forward to for the next levels.

First and foremost: The 9th level increase to Expertise. Being able to use my expertise die on Piloting checks. Also if we are running a lot of wilderness exploration, I am probably taking the feat Skill Focus (Survival).

I haven't managed to squeeze in Hurry yet. I will probably put that in as soon as possible.

In fact, let's just see here about the improvisation list. Since that seems to be what everyone is focusing on.

10 - Hurry (Fantastic for moving a melee fighter into position for a full attack or rescuing allies when things go south unexpectedly)
12 - Watch your step (Especially good if someone has a weak Reflex save and/or they haven't managed to squeeze Lightning Reflexes into their feat list yet.) (And it only costs you a reaction from your action economy.)
14 - Improved Hurry
16 - Fire Support (Make missing with my d4 pistol even more effective)
18 - Coordinated Barrage (Who doesn't want another way to add a +1 untyped bonus to attack an enemy? Especially good if a different character is using harrying fire. Combine both of those with Get 'em and we have a total stackable bonus of +5 to hit. Now preceed all of that with the Operative throwing out flat-footed...)
20 - Watch Out (Good for rescuing someone caught out in the open. Also uses only a reaction from your action economy. They might appreciate it if you either spend the resolve point or also used Hurry on them afterwards though...)

And I ran out of slots. And I haven't even gotten to the Despiriting Taunt line, the Clever Feint line, or the Inspiring Boost line.

Some other very honorable mentions that didn't make the list only because I don't know what the rest of the party is:
Phalanx Fighting - good for protecting yourself, the other squishy characters, or NPCs that you are escorting behind your tank's shield.
Coordinated Maneuvers - help out the vanguard or anyone else using combat maneuvers.

Some things I would take if I had the space for them:

Draw Fire - you get +4AC, and you get +4AC, and you get +4AC, everyone gets +4AC. I'm going to go hide behind total cover now.
Heads Up - Useful out of combat. Prevents people from missing the surprise round. Also useful for other things. Noticing pick-pocketing. Finding hidden doors. Finding traps.

--------

But again, my main thoughts on the Envoy is that they absolutely rock the rest of the game. The fact that they are not terrible in combat is an added bonus.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

In what kind of game does an envoy live up to high level play that the rest of the party gets? Even in their own areas of expertise.

The sharpshooter soldier is blasting away three people around plunking people through gun ports like they were standing on the pitchers mound of Wrigley Field.

The solarion is full attacking as a standard action

The operative can be in combat hanging upside down over a tank of acid with acid breathing sharks hacking the computer/untying his handcuffs/sneaking past the acid breathing sharks taking 10 like he was sitting in his living room.

Even in the envoys own wheelhouse, in the kind of game where an envoy should be excelling and at the sort of things they should be excelling at where is the equivalent game changing "wow" abilities?

I notice that all of your examples of where other classes excel involve combat. What else do your games involve?

And I have no idea what 'stormwind' is referring to. You will have to explain that one.

@Hammerjack if you have a better word in mind, let me know. I'll use that instead.

Garretmander wrote:

Every other class has options with a level requirement of 14+. The envoy does not have those options.

They could be lackluster even. The problems is that they do not exist at all.

Again, would it help if we arbitrarily moved the existing ones to a higher class level requirement? Make Improved Hurry be a level 14 ability and such. Is it just a numbers perception, or is there something actually wrong with Envoy allowing all of the class ability selection at low level?

If we houseruled all of the other classes so that all of their selectable class abilities (solarian revelations, mechanic tricks, and so on. Not counting spellcasting.) were available at low levels (but keeping the requirement chaining), what would that do for them?

Curious here. It is an interesting food for thought.


*squeeks and looks under the hood*

Okay, please, for the love of all 20 core rules gods, do not take a critque of a characters mechanics as a critique against their heart soul and flavor. I cannot tell if a character is fun or is working in that respect without playing them, and even then a lot of what works is so internal no one can do it without a mind reading machine (which i absolutely do not have duct tapped to the bottom of my players chairs)

The main problem i see is that get em and your investment in cover fire/harrying fire is an either or situation. The standard action to provide covering fire is not quite the same as the standard action to attack. So you've run into the envoy bottleneck that we've been talking about already. Both are pretty good options but you've invested two pretty good options to get one pretty good option and one niche circumstance that will probably collect dust. Currently hurry is ALSO occupying that spot... not doing much.

Quote:
First and foremost: The 9th level increase to Expertise. Being able to use my expertise die on Piloting checks. Also if we are running a lot of wilderness exploration, I am probably taking the feat Skill Focus (Survival).

I think I misread the 9th level ability the same way, but it doesn't do that.

Beginning at 9th level, you have even greater expertise with (skills to which you can add your expertise die) that you have also selected with the Skill Focus feat. For each such skill, once per day when rolling your expertise die to add to that skill, you may roll the expertise die twice and take the better of the two results.

So you need something with an expertise die AND skill focus. That doesn't add the expertise die to feats you've selected with skill focus. What it is is a consolation prize if you have skill focus diplomacy and expertise in diplomacy now your 9th level ability to have 1d6+2 (minimum 3) points of insight bonus makes your skill focus irrelevant.

As a consolation prize it is absolutely terrible. It adds on averageless than 1 to a roll AND needs to be called in advance.

Advanced warning seems kind of meh. Bad guys usually have enough to hit anyway, the bad part of flat footed is no aoos, but the main cause of not being able to aoo is a surprise round where you're not actually flat footed you just can't AOO before you act in the surprise round.

My tiny mouse with a giant gun for comparison her charisma should be 2 points lower.

Quote:
but again, my main thoughts on the Envoy is that they absolutely rock the rest of the game. The fact that they are not terrible in combat is an added bonus.

Operatives manage to do both.

Envoys can be built to do both rather easily with minimal if any reduction in actual buffinating


breithauptclan wrote:


I notice that all of your examples of where other classes excel involve combat. What else do your games involve?

Investigations, ship combats, repairs, haunted houses, social dilemas, dinner parties, survival, planetary exploration, dinner parties , archeology and dinner parties.

Mom Norveg Literal team mom keeping the party supplied with mothers little helper

Justin Norveg science geek and starfinder fanboy that wanted to get his family out of the scoured stars. Started working (yes jessica working!) in the master of stars nursery, got blown out of an airlock and put back by mathulu (or just a really bad casse of o2 depravation. Who knows) But he can now cast spells so.. field commission approved. Has served gourmet meals to starfinder rescuees, sewer rats, and at least 5 species of space dinosaur.

Jessica "Murdermouse" Norveg Scoured stars survivor. She'll TELL you she's just here to drink and murder things. But is known for sparing ratfolk youth and adorable monsters and showing them a slightly smarter criminal career path. Not lying about the drinking though....

Quote:
And I have no idea what 'stormwind' is referring to. You will have to explain that one.

The stormwind fallacy is a gamer specific version of the either or fallacy. Either your character is a combat munchkin or they're fun to role play, the more you do of one proportionally the less you're able to

do of the other.

Quote:
Again, would it help if we arbitrarily moved the existing ones to a higher class level requirement? Make Improved Hurry be a level 14 ability and such.

Seriously, no. The solution to the problem that the envoy is underpowered at higher levels is not to make them underpowered at every level.

Doctor, this patient complains his foot hurts!
Stabs patient in kidney
Problem solved! No longer complaining about foot

Quote:
Curious here. It is an interesting food for thought.

Picturing the geico raccoons "Taste this its terrible..."


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
First and foremost: The 9th level increase to Expertise. Being able to use my expertise die on Piloting checks. Also if we are running a lot of wilderness exploration, I am probably taking the feat Skill Focus (Survival).

I think I misread the 9th level ability the same way, but it doesn't do that.

Beginning at 9th level, you have even greater expertise with (skills to which you can add your expertise die) that you have also selected with the Skill Focus feat. For each such skill, once per day when rolling your expertise die to add to that skill, you may roll the expertise die twice and take the better of the two results.

So you need something with an expertise die AND skill focus. That doesn't add the expertise die to feats you've selected with skill focus. What it is is a consolation prize if you have skill focus diplomacy and expertise in diplomacy now your 9th level ability to have 1d6+2 (minimum 3) points of insight bonus makes your skill focus irrelevant.

*squints a bit* Yeah. The wording on that is a bit clunky though.

And honestly in my opinion that is a bigger nerf to the class than not having any improvisations higher than 8th level.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
The stormwind fallacy is a gamer specific version of the either or fallacy. Either your character is a combat munchkin or they're fun to role play, the more you do of one proportionally the less you're able to do of the other.

Ah. OK.

That was one of the best things I saw when I first looked at Pathfinder vs D&D 3.5 - the changes to how skill ranks work. It made it so that any character could pick at least a couple of non-combat things to excel at with numbers to back it up.

The cool thing I see with Envoy is that they can be excellent at most of them at the same time.

Which is why that nerf of the correct reading of that 9th level Expertise ability hurts quite a bit.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Investigations, ship combats, repairs, haunted houses, social dilemas, dinner parties, survival, planetary exploration, dinner parties , archeology and dinner parties.

And of these, how many can any one of your combat-focused characters be excellent at? An operative can likely do well at most or all* of them. Soldier less so.

I'm fairly sure I have seen other threads on here complaining about the operative being too powerful as a result. Good at combat and excellent at all skills with no class investment cost.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

The main problem i see is that get em and your investment in cover fire/harrying fire is an either or situation. The standard action to provide covering fire is not quite the same as the standard action to attack. So you've run into the envoy bottleneck that we've been talking about already. Both are pretty good options but you've invested two pretty good options to get one pretty good option and one niche circumstance that will probably collect dust. Currently hurry is ALSO occupying that spot... not doing much.

That is a reasonable critique. I did also mention that I would likely still be doing the move action version of Get 'em. Because I am aware that the Get 'em attack would conflict with cover fire, harrying fire, and Hurry.

But just because I can only do some of them doesn't mean that there is a problem. At 8th level when Operative gets Triple Attack - it conflicts with Trick Attack. The Operative can't do both. They have to choose one or the other each round. Is that a problem with the Operative class?

For the Envoy, yes. You will have to choose what to do each round. Based on how the battle is going and what is needed.


Garretmander wrote:
Charli Poshkettle wrote:

So, what are you suggesting for envoys? Are you suggesting that we multiclass instead of leveling in our class? And what would you suggest we do, if so?

At the moment, I still am finding improvisations to take on Charli, so I am likely to go envoy all the way to 12. But I am curious to see what you all think.

Hmm

The doom and gloom optimized advice is to go soldier or something else at 12 when you get the most out of your improvs and have enough of them. You can stick to the class, but there are sharply diminishing returns.

Heh. Just noticed this one.

If the problem is that a 12+ level Envoy is having to pick low level Envoy abilities, I am not convinced that the fix is to instead pick the low level abilities of a different class.

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