Where's the reason to level an envoy past 8-12?


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breithauptclan wrote:


Investigations, ship combats, repairs, haunted houses, social dilemas, dinner parties, survival, planetary exploration, dinner parties , archeology and dinner parties.

And of these, how many can any one of your combat-focused characters be excellent at? An operative can likely do well at most or all* of them. Soldier less so.

The shooty envoy (tiny mouse with a giant gun linked above) can rock all of them, the skill monkey mystic is amazing at almost everything but the talky talk, murdermouse is good at everything but the talking, and the biohacker .. oddly enough feels a little short on skills. I'll let you know when I play her a bit more.

Quote:
I'm fairly sure I have seen other threads on here complaining about the operative being too powerful as a result. Good at combat and excellent at all skills with no class investment cost.

Their combat ability drops off a bit at higher levels as weapon dice start to matter but below 10 they can really, really eat everyone elses lunch at skills without even trying very hard and still pack a whallop. A 14 starting charisma , skill focus in diplomacy and skill synergy or a dip or a theme with diplomacy and they can take 10 to make any reasonable DC all day long. An envoy only competes in skills they have skill expertise and a reroll in, and then only if you need a particularly high number for the tier.


breithauptclan wrote:


If the problem is that a 12+ level Envoy is having to pick low level Envoy abilities, I am not convinced that the fix is to instead pick the low level abilities of a different class.

+5 or so to perception and sense motive from dipping biohacker is better than most envoy abilities

Continuing soldier looks like a lost cause.

I can't get to a really good ability from level 12 on: the sharpshooter soldier relies on full attacks to make the ability good and the envoy is pretty much locked into one attack with an unwieldy weapon.

It doesn't even help the attack bonus much/if at all. Increasing the expert attack die and a 3/4 BAB will increase +attack commensurate or ahead of full BAB.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:

Again, would it help if we arbitrarily moved the existing ones to a higher class level requirement? Make Improved Hurry be a level 14 ability and such. Is it just a numbers perception, or is there something actually wrong with Envoy allowing all of the class ability selection at low level?

If we houseruled all of the other classes so that all of their selectable class abilities (solarian revelations, mechanic tricks, and so on. Not counting spellcasting.) were available at low levels (but keeping the requirement chaining), what would that do for them?

Curious here. It is an interesting food for thought.

Picturing the geico raccoons "Taste this its terrible..."

The hope is that if we can pin down what makes for a good high level ability (instead of just an ability printed under the heading 'level 12 or higher') then we or the Paizo devs can make good high level abilities for the Envoy.

One of the things that I see is that Envoy abilities don't generally do damage directly.

So giving a Solarian the ability to use Sunbolt at level 2 would be a bad plan. They could practically one-shot everything on level that they come across.

But how about Debris Field? If we allow that to a level 2 Solarian, would that break anything? What is it about Debris Field that makes it a level 10 ability instead of a level 2?


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breithauptclan wrote:


The hope is that if we can pin down what makes for a good high level ability (instead of just an ability printed under the heading 'level 12 or higher') then we or the Paizo devs can make good high level abilities for the Envoy.

You're making that point in a very weird way that comes across as sarcastic.

Cherry picking bad abilities that probably don't need to be gated as high as they are doesn't mean that there aren't some amazing high level abilities that other classes get that the envoy is being left out of.

Taking what the envoy has now and gating it higher and adding more pre requisites is also a mathematicians answer. It also completely ignores that people looking to play an envoy would likely pick something else for taking too long (longer than most campaigns) to achieve any real functionality.

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One of the things that I see is that Envoy abilities don't generally do damage directly.

Improvisations

Get em does. But mostly they're good at making your allies better.

Reverb: spend 2 resolve points, an envoy ability lasts an extra round.

Move it move it: when you use hurry to give 1 ally a standard action, a second ally gets a move action

Improved move it move it hurry affects 2 allies

Never quit! You can remove permanant conditions

Improved fire support: take a -6 to give 3 people harrying fire

Telecom Improv: You can use one improvisation over the com unit as if you were standing in that units square


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breithauptclan wrote:

Garretmander wrote:

Every other class has options with a level requirement of 14+. The envoy does not have those options.

They could be lackluster even. The problems is that they do not exist at all.

Again, would it help if we arbitrarily moved the existing ones to a higher class level requirement? Make Improved Hurry be a level 14 ability and such. Is it just a numbers perception, or is there something actually wrong with Envoy allowing all of the class ability selection at low level?

If we houseruled all of the other classes so that all of their selectable class abilities (solarian revelations, mechanic tricks, and so on. Not counting spellcasting.) were available at low levels (but keeping the requirement chaining), what would that do for them?

Curious here. It is an interesting food for thought.

Arbitrarily moving envoy abilities up really doesn't help the problem so much as make the envoy arbitrarily worse.

Because those abilities are around the same power as other classes' 2nd-12th level abilities, while they have some (not all of) 14+ abilities that are worth that level requirement.

What I'd like to see are a few improved versions like BNW lists. Plus something like: envoy improvs 8th level and below that can be used as a move action can now be used as a swift action.

Plus other worth it at high level bonuses. Haste the party for 1 RP, with varying duration based on actions spent. Give bonuses to the party when attacking shaken/flat footed creatures. Perhaps expertise die to damage? Might be a bit low. This one sounds good to me if it works without an action at all. Increase penalties to shaken/flat footed enemies.


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Here's a few things I think an Envoy could gain at later levels that wouldn't be Improvisations:

Action Economy Enhancer: Level 14+.
Option 1- Using two improvisations with the same action, if they can be used with the action being burned (Standard actions, etc). Of course attacks will not be throwing, otherwise an Envoy with Clever Attack and Imp. Get'em would be dealing two attacks with a Standard action.
Option 2- Gaining an extra move action every round. You can only use it to move up to your speed or use an Improvisation. (Potential to be a Capstone, since it mirrors a permanent haste).
Option 3- You can use a Improvisation that costs a Move-action as a swift action. It's similar to Bards in PF1e.

Duration Enhancer:
Option 1 - Improvs that have a duration of 1 round lasts one more.
Option 2 - Passing a skill check would increase the duration, but this could bump into problems of defining what kind of skill checks. But similar in design to Bards in PF2e.
Option 3 - You spend 1 resolve point and for the rest of the round your improvisations beyond normal (2-3 rounds).
Option 4 - Every round you can spend 1 resolve point for every active improvisation to extend the duration for this round. This effectively lets the Envoy sustain the Improvs, which will significantly free the class at later rounds, allowing for more attacks and freedom of movement and to use those highly situational Improvs.

These two approaches could also be added to the improvisations I mentioned before that should've been class features: Expert Attack, Expanded Attunement, Clever Improvisations, Universal Expression and maybe even Long Range Improvs.

This would make the Envoy like other classes that get better at their main thing over levels through new features while also gaining their options.


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Lightning Raven wrote:
Here's a few things I think an Envoy could gain at later levels that wouldn't be Improvisations:

Stuff like this is exactly what an envoy could use, I agree.

Gaining the ability to make improvs last longer, getting some of the improvs down to swift actions... even just these two things would allow the envoy more versatility in combat, allow the much more situational improvs to be very useful, and become more and more of a boon to the 'team lead/support' idea they're supposed to be.

Envoys are pretty dull to play at the moment, and having a giant bag of very situational tricks is nice and all, but not useful when you don't have the time to effectively use them all.


Lethallin wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:
Here's a few things I think an Envoy could gain at later levels that wouldn't be Improvisations:
Envoys are pretty dull to play at the moment, and having a giant bag of very situational tricks is nice and all, but not useful when you don't have the time to effectively use them all.

That's exactly why I often don't even give much weight when someone comes up with their build of the Envoy with all the options they found interesting (which there aren't many).

It's one thing to see that some abilities may be useful, but it's an entirely different beast to see them being actually effective in action. Sometimes there are too many restrictions in its use, sometimes there are other precedent actions you must be taking or simply you're not even in range.

In play, the Envoy is very different. You always feel you don't have enough actions to use your stuff and you know that even if you did, it wouldn't still guarantee you could solve everything you need.

I still remember the fight against the Garagakkal in book 1 of Dead Suns. I was "healing" for 9 damage when the creature was dealing 20 to 30 damage easily with each of its very-unlikely-to-miss attacks. Giving the thing a -1 to hit with Frightened when it hit everyone in the part on a 3 was definitely something that would be seen as very low priority, so you either focus on killing it faster. There's also the fight with Paneliar on the second book of that AP, he had +18 Sense Motive which outright nullified both my Clever Feint and our Operative's crit attack (we both had to roll 18 or 19 to succeed).

I really loved the character I've created with the Envoy class, but I didn't enjoy the gameplay loop at all. Which is the basis of all my arguments: Everyone can create a character they like regardless of class and race, but no one can ignore a class that doesn't play well neither fully realizes your vision for the character.


breithauptclan wrote:


But how about Debris Field? If we allow that to a level 2 Solarian, would that break anything? What is it about Debris Field that makes it a level 10 ability instead of a level 2?

It's an infinitely spammable 50% reduction in ranged damage. It's like displacement spell (available at 7th level to spellcasters), but with no daily limits on use, no weakness to true seeing or blindsight/sense, and no applicability to melee attacks. It's exactly right as a 10th level power.

Sunbolt is trash at its level and I hope it gets errata this summer.


Lightning Raven wrote:

]

That's exactly why I often don't even give much weight when someone comes up with their build of the Envoy with all the options they found interesting (which there aren't many).

And having seen yet another example of an envoy not being able to use all of its parts together, not built for combat I have to concur.

Sorry hard to spell kitty*, but I don't think giving your party +1 to attack and then giving one person another +2 on one of their attacks is a meaningful contribution to combat at 8th level. No, combat isn't everything, but it is a thing and its an important thing. Your character isn't really contributing there.

The idea that you're contributing elsewhere to make up for it doesn't hold weight. An envoys combat optimization is almost orthogonal to their ability to use skills outside of combat (since imrpovs are combat stuff and can't be traded for non combat stuff). Yes, compared to a beatstick soldier a not built for combat Envoy has a world of extra skill utility. But compared to an operative or a combat capable envoy the difference is small if not negligible.

And as always, role playing is completely orthogonal to optimization. Characters are good at social skill challenges. Players are good at role playing backstory and character. A character is not amazing bit of roleplaying by being terrible at combat, nor is a character a piece of wargaming scenery just because they can blow the robots head clean off in one shot.

*and I am really trying to find a more delicate way to say this that still gets the point accross, but I'm a beatstick that tanked charisma and runs wild empathy off of con...


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HammerJack wrote:
I'm also a little confused by using "Wargame" to describe a playstyle that doesn't use terrain and tactical movement, but...

Hah, very true. Maybe "dungeon crawl-y" would be a better term, since the typical dungeon crawl video game doesn't use terrain or tactical movement, either. Still, there obviously needs to be a term to refer to games that ignore anything outside of combat and prelude-to-combat.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, I ran into this problem in a game I gmed, so I wrote up some higher level envoy improvisations; Mostly cribbed from PF abilities unfortunately; but what do you guys think?

lots of text:

10th; Improved Clever Attack: you may Spend 1 RP instead of 2 to use Expert Attack
10th; Expert Assistance: When you successfully Aid Another on a skill you have Expertise in, the character you assisted may gain the benefits of your expertise die.
12; Wounding Words: as a swift action, you may speak cutting words at an opponent within 30 feet, dealing damage equal to your expertise die+your envoy level. (Sonic, Mind affecting, Language dependant)
12; Dodging Panache: When you are attacked, as a Reaction, you may move 5 feet to gain a dodge bonus to your AC against that attack equal to your Cha mod.
14th; Mesmerizing Speech: The Envoy may begin a Mesmerizing speech as a full round action; all creatures they choose within 30 feet that can see and hear the envoy must make a will save (DC 10+Cha+ ½ envoy level) or be fascinated for as long as the envoy speaks(a full round action) and for 1 round after. After the effect ends, affected creatures have no memory of what transpired while they were fascinated, and don't realize what happened unless it is pointed out to them. Once a creature has saved against this ability, they are immune for the next 24 hours.
14th; Charmed Life: When you attempt a saving throw, you may spend 2 RP as a reaction, to gain the Benefits of Expertise on that save.
16; Crushing Words: When you use your Wounding Words Improvisation, you may choose to have it affect all enemies in range, OR to make the target Staggered for 1 round.
16; Mental Sanctum: Through long practice, you have managed to create a psychic refuge within your own mind. Whenever you Fail a Save against a mind affecting effect, you may Spend 1 RP to delay the effect until the end of your next turn, becoming stunned as you retreat into your own mind to fight off the effect, at the end of your turn, you can attempt another save to shake off the effect, if it is successful, the effect ends as though you had made you initial save. If this second save fails, you are affected, unless you spend 2 RP to repeat this process.
18th; Cheat Death: When you would die, you may spend all of your remaining RP to instead be reduced to 1 HP. You must have at least 1 RP remaining to use this Ability.
18th; Never tell me the odds: 1/D, before making an attack roll, skill check, or ability check, you may choose to get a result of 20 on the die.


BigNorseWolf wrote:


*and I am really trying to find a more delicate way to say this that still gets the point accross, but I'm a beatstick that tanked charisma and runs wild empathy off of con...

Heh. No problems on my end.

I am trying to get to the bottom of what the problem with Envoy is and what to do about it. I tend to use Socratic Method for doing that - hence the constant questioning.

When I see someone saying something like

Quote:

Every other class has options with a level requirement of 14+. The envoy does not have those options.

They could be lackluster even. The problems is that they do not exist at all.

it makes me think that it is just a perception problem. Similar to what is exploited by social engineering tactics - something is valuable if it has a high price tag sticker.

But when I question that and propose just giving some of the more powerful abilities a higher price tag sticker, it turns out that this isn't actually the problem in the first place.

So sorry Garretmantder - giving lackluster 14+ abilities won't fix the problem.

Things like that. I'm not asking rhetorical questions. I'm not giving arguments with a question mark at the end.


Lightning Raven wrote:


Option 4 - Every round you can spend 1 resolve point for every active improvisation to extend the duration for this round.

I like the idea of this one, but I think it would run you out of resolve points too quickly.

How about a limited version of this?

Second verse, same as the first:
As a swift action, you can sustain the effects of an improvisation that you used normally in the previous round.

The idea being that it is still free to use/spam. But it frees up the action economy if you need to do something else for that turn but also want to keep the normal bonuses going.

It will probably still need rules lawyers to look at it to make sure it can't be abused...


breithauptclan wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


*and I am really trying to find a more delicate way to say this that still gets the point accross, but I'm a beatstick that tanked charisma and runs wild empathy off of con...

Heh. No problems on my end.

I am trying to get to the bottom of what the problem with Envoy is and what to do about it. I tend to use Socratic Method for doing that - hence the constant questioning.

When I see someone saying something like

Quote:

Every other class has options with a level requirement of 14+. The envoy does not have those options.

They could be lackluster even. The problems is that they do not exist at all.

it makes me think that it is just a perception problem. Similar to what is exploited by social engineering tactics - something is valuable if it has a high price tag sticker.

But when I question that and propose just giving some of the more powerful abilities a higher price tag sticker, it turns out that this isn't actually the problem in the first place.

So sorry Garretmantder - giving lackluster 14+ abilities won't fix the problem.

Things like that. I'm not asking rhetorical questions. I'm not giving arguments with a question mark at the end.

By lackluster I don't mean take a level 8 ability and slap a level 14 label on it.

I mean one that is an actual improvement compared to lower level abilities already existing. It can be lackluster compared to solarian revelations, or mechanic tricks, or operative exploits of the same level, but it must still be an improvement over the level 12 envoy abilities.

Also,

Quote:
But when I question that and propose just giving some of the more powerful abilities a higher price tag sticker, it turns out that this isn't actually the problem in the first place.

Did you? I missed that part of the thread.


Xenocrat wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:


But how about Debris Field? If we allow that to a level 2 Solarian, would that break anything? What is it about Debris Field that makes it a level 10 ability instead of a level 2?
It's an infinitely spammable 50% reduction in ranged damage. It's like displacement spell (available at 7th level to spellcasters), but with no daily limits on use, no weakness to true seeing or blindsight/sense, and no applicability to melee attacks. It's exactly right as a 10th level power.

Cool. I can work with that.

And no, I didn't cherry pick this particular ability. It was one of the first level 10 abilities that I saw. I skipped Burn Enchantment because I couldn't figure out what the value of that one even was.

Now to question this a bit.

First, Displacement is a 3rd level spell. But this version of it is a) self only, and b) only effective against ranged attacks. So 2nd level? But then it is an ability that can be used indefinitely. A 10th level Technomancer has plenty of 2nd and 3rd level spell slots, but that isn't quite the same. And if we do move this down in ability level, a 4th or 6th level Technomancer may consider using a 2nd level spell slot to be a noticeable cost.

Since we are comparing against Displacement, we must be using the graviton attuned version of the ability. So that rules out some unknown percentage of Solarian players from liking this ability as much.

So, still feeling that 10th level is just right for this? 2nd is probably too low, but maybe 4th or 6th?

And more importantly, why? What makes for a good 10th level Solarian ability that we can try and carry over to Envoy?


Garretmander wrote:


Quote:
But when I question that and propose just giving some of the more powerful abilities a higher price tag sticker, it turns out that this isn't actually the problem in the first place.
Did you? I missed that part of the thread.

You missed where I proposed that? I did it twice actually.

Quote:

You want the Envoy to behave like the other classes. Their low level abilities become obsolete at high level and they have to buy new and more powerful stuff.

Easy. Just split out the autoscaling powerups in the existing improvisations.

8th level

Watch Out: you can choose the ability to use this without your allies falling prone.

...

Quote:
Again, would it help if we arbitrarily moved the existing ones to a higher class level requirement? Make Improved Hurry be a level 14 ability and such. Is it just a numbers perception, or is there something actually wrong with Envoy allowing all of the class ability selection at low level?

Or did you miss where people called me out on it and said that it was a stupid and useless idea that wouldn't fix the problems with Envoy?

Because that happened repeatedly too...

Not complaining about that part though. I think it is a terrible idea also. But it fits the requirements that people were actually stating.


breithauptclan wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:


Option 4 - Every round you can spend 1 resolve point for every active improvisation to extend the duration for this round.

I like the idea of this one, but I think it would run you out of resolve points too quickly.

How about a limited version of this?

Second verse, same as the first:
As a swift action, you can sustain the effects of an improvisation that you used normally in the previous round.

The idea being that it is still free to use/spam. But it frees up the action economy if you need to do something else for that turn but also want to keep the normal bonuses going.

It will probably still need rules lawyers to look at it to make sure it can't be abused...

This option was more like the moment where the Envoy decided going "nova" and just outright use everything over the course of one or two rounds and just attack and do conditional things after a while. But the option also only accounted for the Improvisations that already exist. In a world where the Envoy had better abilities, then this option would either be redundant or would make it too OP (in case the "better" was in intensity and impact rather than duration).


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HammerJack wrote:
Quote:
If the class had a lot more reactions, swift actions and abilities that lasted more than a meager round

This would certainly help, and I do think that cheaper action costs and improved durations (to make having many abilities more useful) would help with expanding envoys into higher levels.

Interesting discussion. I personally think that ALL classes would benefit from more swift actions and reactions. Swift actions, in particular, are a remarkably underused resource in the game, in my opinion.


It depends on the class, and whether you want to full attack or have a fancy ability that costs a swift action.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yes, giving up full attacks or trick attack/stunt and strike make swift actions a lot less appealing to a lot of classes than they are to envoys.


Garretmander wrote:


I mean one that is an actual improvement compared to lower level abilities already existing. It can be lackluster compared to solarian revelations, or mechanic tricks, or operative exploits of the same level, but it must still be an improvement over the level 12 envoy abilities.

volvo14th level envoy abilities. Boxy but good

Sovereign Court

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What about the following as a 14+ improvisation?

Multitasking Leadership

You gain an extra move action each turn, which can only be used to activate envoy improvisations. These must be improvisations with a minimum level no higher than your envoy level -6, and function as if your envoy level was 6 lower.


Just make the Leadership feat a level 14th envoy improvisation.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

What about the following as a 14+ improvisation?

Multitasking Leadership

You gain an extra move action each turn, which can only be used to activate envoy improvisations. These must be improvisations with a minimum level no higher than your envoy level -6, and function as if your envoy level was 6 lower.

I don't like it. It should be just this:

"Multitasking Leadership

You gain an extra move action each turn, which can only be used to activate envoy improvisations."

These aren't spells, having a "Quickened" Improvisation is not going to break the game. You could even gate the improvisation level, which is alright, but the level effectiveness reduction is just exactly the kind of thing that just outright makes the Envoy being so underpowered. Too much cost for very low impact.

Healing an Ally for less than the damage of a single hit and giving +1 to your team against one enemy is not gamebreaking by any means (it should be baseline, actually). This is just the example of using Inspiring Boost which is one of the only ones that "scale" (being a VERY generous term here) with level.


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Now this is a much more useful conversation.

----

How about adding in that misread 9th level ability? As either an improvisation or as a level restricted expertise talent. You can pick a skill not normally allowed with Expertise and use your Expertise bonus on it.


Lightning Raven wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

What about the following as a 14+ improvisation?

Multitasking Leadership

You gain an extra move action each turn, which can only be used to activate envoy improvisations. These must be improvisations with a minimum level no higher than your envoy level -6, and function as if your envoy level was 6 lower.

I don't like it. It should be just this:

"Multitasking Leadership

You gain an extra move action each turn, which can only be used to activate envoy improvisations."

I'm personally not a fan of it. It feels like a must-pick ability at this point. So maybe as a core class feature instead of an improvisation?

But I am also not sure that we need to provide that much additional action economy. No other class can pull off all of their stunts each round either. Having to make decisions about which abilities to play during this particular round makes it more interesting. To me there is nothing worse than a boring fight - where everyone does the exact same thing each round.

Sovereign Court

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I think you need to do stuff either about action economy, or power level. Just adding more different capabilities that you don't have the actions to all use is less and less useful per new ability.

I feel like we may be stuck at the "realism limit" where nonmagical classes tend to hit a ceiling in what kind of high level abilities they get.


Ascalaphus wrote:
I think you need to do stuff either about action economy, or power level. Just adding more different capabilities that you don't have the actions to all use is less and less useful per new ability.

That is a valid point.

What I worry about when considering adding more powerful combat abilities: If you want to play a skill-heavy character that provides a lot of direct value to combat - play an operative. That is what that class is for. I don't want to see the Envoy turn into a clone of the Operative.

So what is the difference? Or what should the difference be?

I am thinking that the Operative is self-sufficient. It doesn't matter what the rest of the party is composed of. The Operative always provides value to combat all by itself.

So the Envoy is more about team synergy. Maximizing the value of the other characters. Envoy isn't the class you want to take to Society games and play with strangers.

I also like the idea of a reactive or adaptive type of protection abilities. Things like Don't Quit, Draw Fire and the like. If we can get good combat value out of those, I would be a happy player.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Envoy isn't the class you want to take to Society games and play with strangers.

The spoony bard envoy build has a slight risk of getting stuck with other support characters and not able to contribute.

There's a bit of a learning curve for some players figuring out what they can do with a hurry.(you want to give it to the dumb vesk with the smart player)

But an envoy built for society and built well works great. They have tech skills (that come up a lot) , social skills (come up less frequently but are VERY important when they do) , boost the entire parties combat effectiveness through get em, (a lot of them provide the only effective stamina healing, which i'm iffy on but a lot of people appreciate) and the occasional utility. It's not going to compete with melee for damage but its not missing with a 1d4 pistol either. (I think you're close enough to a ranged soldier to make little if any discernable difference)


breithauptclan wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

What about the following as a 14+ improvisation?

Multitasking Leadership

You gain an extra move action each turn, which can only be used to activate envoy improvisations. These must be improvisations with a minimum level no higher than your envoy level -6, and function as if your envoy level was 6 lower.

I don't like it. It should be just this:

"Multitasking Leadership

You gain an extra move action each turn, which can only be used to activate envoy improvisations."

I'm personally not a fan of it. It feels like a must-pick ability at this point. So maybe as a core class feature instead of an improvisation?

But I am also not sure that we need to provide that much additional action economy. No other class can pull off all of their stunts each round either. Having to make decisions about which abilities to play during this particular round makes it more interesting. To me there is nothing worse than a boring fight - where everyone does the exact same thing each round.

Seems indeed like a must-pick and I would definitely rather it being a Class Feature. Improvs should be either good proactive options that enhance your chosen playstyle or situational abilities that may be optional but when the situation arises you can solve it (at least that's what I think the Envoy should've been and it should be the driving factor).

I wouldn't mind throwing in some new buffs at high level that offer untyped bonuses, just to further make the class a Buff/Debuffing machine above everyone else, that does definitely sound like a niche the Envoy should be dominating. Not enough utility as spells in and out of combat? Fine. But let them completely rule the realm of buffs and debuffs on enemies and their removal.

Wayfinders

I would love the multi-tasking leadership as a core class feature. But how would we add a core class feature at this point? Is this something that would have to be traded for something else that envoys get at 14th?


Charli Poshkettle wrote:

I would love the multi-tasking leadership as a core class feature. But how would we add a core class feature at this point? Is this something that would have to be traded for something else that envoys get at 14th?

Well, while this kind of thing being added would be unprecedented, I think the really need more tools that other classes also get, but then it's basically me and just a small subset of others, that discuss the issue here. Maybe for Paizo's, staff, the Envoy is performing as expected, given they probably have more information on the matter.

But one thing is for certain, we're not exactly off the mark here, since ever since I played and joined the discussion about Starfinder, there has always been complaints and its initial reception weren't much better. Some people warmed up to it, but it was never actually a class that one would say "Wow! This is amazing!", specially when you put the Envoy against the Operative, Soldier and Mechanic (The spellcasters don't factor much in because their main shtick has been known ever since RPG was a thing).

Honestly, I wouldn't mind having a class re-write on some possible 2nd print of the Core Rulebook. Or maybe just a few extra class features printed on a future class-feature splatbook (although in this option it would still keep the new features too disjointed from the main class).

One thing is for certain, nobody that ever played an Envoy or intended to play one would complain about having class features added in the Class' progression.

Sovereign Court

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Charli Poshkettle wrote:

I would love the multi-tasking leadership as a core class feature. But how would we add a core class feature at this point? Is this something that would have to be traded for something else that envoys get at 14th?

I don't think we can sell adding a class feature like that. That's why I suggested it as an improvisation.

Basically, aside your regular actions, you'd get one bonus "junior" action. But it doesn't stay "baby"; at level 14 envoy level -6 is still at least 8, so if you had for example Improved Hurry, you could be using that every round for free.

Some other examples of when something would come online as a "free move":

- Get 'Em
- Not In The Face
- Coordinated Barrage
- Coordinated Flankers

Since this gives you more actions, I think that provides a more serious power boost than yet another improvisation that competes for your existing pool of actions. It also fits the theme of higher level adventures having lots of problems happening all at once, and needing to deal with all of them.

I disagree with BNW's assessment that "we don't need Quicken Spell for low level stuff"; this isn't Quicken Spell. This is every round all the time for free, so there does need to be a bit of a limiter, not giving you two max level things every turn.

---

Another idea for a higher level power:

Walk and Talk
Once per turn when you use an envoy improvisation that costs a move or standard action, you make move up to your speed before or after resolving that ability.

This would "unlock" envoys feeling stuck in place because they're spending both their move and standard actions on improvisations. It'd also basically turn Improved Get'Em into a shot on the run ability, and I'm okay with that.


Thinking a little bit about it more, I agree with your restraint. Not because the restraint is welcome, but because design around it would just further damage any future Improvisations, because they would need to be balanced with this in mind.

So gating the level in which you could use would free up stronger improvisations to be designed without worrying of it being too insane while used with another improv.


Well, if there's only one level 14 improvisation at this point its almost automatically going to be must have...

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Well, if there's only one level 14 improvisation at this point its almost automatically going to be must have...

Hey, I'm on board with you that there should be more choices. But the problem seems to be coming up with any ideas at all.


The Chimera Mistery, first book of the new AP has some new options for the Envoy...

Exactly as I Would Have Done (Ex), 4th level: "You aren’t flat-footed during a surprise round." (Hey, no action)

Frustrating Target (Ex): "Once per turn as a move action, choose a significant enemy you are adjacent to. All other enemies take a –1 penalty to attack rolls against you until the beginning of your next turn, as long as you are still adjacent to the designated opponent." (+1 to your allies or -1 to your enemies, pick your poison)

Infuriating Target (Ex), 4th level: "When you use frustrating target, you also gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Reflex saving throws against area effects as long as you are still adjacent to the designated opponent. If your designated opponent is also within the same area of effect, it takes a –2 penalty to their Reflex save. You must have the frustrating target improvisation to choose this improvisation."

They also improve at higher level, like other improvisations.

There's also a couple of new expertises, the bluff one seems good - though mechanically, a bit uncertain.


Here's my opinion:

Exactly as I Would Have Done (Ex): Mechanically useful. But utterly boring ability. Would you pick it over Clever Attack or Hurry, Quick Inspiring Boost/Dispiriting Taunt (if they're your paths)? No. Does it inspire you to pick it? Also no. It's just a simple and boring ability, exactly what the Envoy has a ton of.

Frustrating Target (Ex): Just more of the same Envoy stuff. But with a conditional that may get you killed, because I don't think Envoys fare that well in melee. Not bad, but not great either. And GREAT is what the Envoy really needs.

Infuriating Target(Ex): This ability sounds like something a Vanguard would have. Getting up close and personal while preparing to face tank some AOE while getting a debuff on the side.

None of these are exactly what any of us have in mind when it comes in making the Envoy better. Honestly, they should just start printing OP s!%* for the class. Also... Why low level improvs AGAIN!?


Lightning Raven wrote:
Why low level improvs AGAIN!?

It is a low level book - maybe book 6 will have higher level options.

This AP does have "envoy" written all over it...


The Ragi wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:
Why low level improvs AGAIN!?

It is a low level book - maybe book 6 will have higher level options.

This AP does have "envoy" written all over it...

"...it was Yovne the whole time!!! I KNEW IT!!!!"


The Ragi wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:
Why low level improvs AGAIN!?

It is a low level book - maybe book 6 will have higher level options.

This AP does have "envoy" written all over it...

Well, at least is something then.

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