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I've never played with anyone who didn't let Inspire Courage work for ranged characters.
You're probably thinking that weapon Enchantments work differently for ranged weapons and ammunition. This isn't a weapon enchantment, it's a magical effect that adds to attack and damage rolls.
Don't have anything to quote, but that's how I think of it.
(And it's not a bad question)
as ammunition doesn't have damage dice listed, but the weapons that fire them do.(look up the weapon table in he core book) i don't see anything wrong with an ability that increases said weapon damage working for it.
long bow uses 1d8, short bow uses 1d6. if you get an ability that increases a weapon's damage by x.(be it weapon specialization,deadly aim or bard song etc) a longbow would do 1d8+x and a short bow do 1d6 +x. you need ammunition to fire the bow. but that doesn't what call for the damage anyway. (unless specific ammunition .like magical is called for with specific rules)
or are you saying people need to take arrows as their weapon focus and weapon specialization feats? and where are they in the fighter weapon groups?
and the damage list on a bow ,is that for whacking some1 with it on the head? why is it piercing?
What your doing is trying to apply specific magic ammu rules onto the general ranged weapon rules and that is just wrong. Specific mean it only apply in specific cases.
Its like saying since i can trip as an attack every attack any1 ever does is also a trip attack.
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Inspire courage applies to the person making the attack, not to their weapon or its ammunition. It should work just fine for an archer.
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A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.
What I am saying is, that the bonus wouldn't go to damage for the same reasons you can't take weapon specialization for arrows. They aren't weapons, they're ammunition.as ammunition doesn't have damage dice listed, but the weapons that fire them do.(look up the weapon table in he core book) i don't see anything wrong with an ability that increases said weapon damage working for it.
long bow uses 1d8, short bow uses 1d6. if you get an ability that increases a weapon's damage by x.(be it weapon specialization,deadly aim or bard song etc) a longbow would do 1d8+x and a short bow do 1d6 +x. you need ammunition to fire the bow. but that doesn't what call for the damage anyway. (unless specific ammunition .like magical is called for with specific rules)
or are you saying people need to take arrows as their weapon focus and weapon specialization feats? and where are they in the fighter weapon groups?
and the damage list on a bow ,is that for whacking some1 with it on the head? why is it piercing?What your doing is trying to apply specific magic ammu rules onto the general ranged weapon rules and that is just wrong. Specific mean it only apply in specific cases.
Its like saying since i can trip as an attack every attack any1 ever does is also a trip attack.
what im saying is that arrows (unless specifically enchanted to ADD damage of their own) are only a medium to deliver the BOW'S damage that is why anything that effect the BOW's damage would still work as the BOW is what is dealing the DAMAGE VIA the arrows (like a strength BOW damage being part of the bow and being delivered via the arrow.) that is why the damage is listed in the BOW's table and anything that increase weapon damage (which we both agree is the bow) would well.. increase the weapon's damage (which is the bow) unless yo go around stabbing people while HOLDING the arrow. when you shoot a bow the bow is the one dealing the damage.
even in the specific case of magic arrows if you look up the FAQ your using so much nothing is said about the arrow not getting the bow's magical bonus to hit and damage, the only thing is they mention that since it was never mentioned that they also become magic of same bonus it doesn't pierce special dr that magic weapon pierce (like +3 overcoming dr cold iron or +4 overcoming adamntium) even that faq still allow the arrow to add in the bow's bonus to hit and damage it just say that like the magic weapon spell it doesn't count for dr breaking (beside being magical which break dr /magic, or if there is a specific rue like if the bow is already alignment breaking to pass it to it's arrows) there is simply nothing about arrows not delivering the bow's damage, it's just go around saying that since it was never mentioned that the arrow, while being granted the bow's hit and damage bonus, is also being granted it's dr breaking ability so they don't overcome dr by sheer enhancement bonus.
again this is specific rule for dr breaking, and when ever the rules mention a damage done by shooting an arrow with a bow the damage is talked about as the bow damage and not the arrow damage (even when changing the damage like in blunt arrows which change the BOW's damage via the arrow from piercing to blunt), that is why when increasing a weapon damage it is the bow's damage were talking about, which in turn is delivered via an arrow in it's entirety!
what your doing is not only reading the rules wrong (the arrow does deliver the bow's bonus to hit and damage it just doesn't become magical enough to break dr) but adjust that wrong reading to all ranged weapon rules where it has nothing to do with. as i said like saying all attacks are now trips attacks just because one can trip as an attack.
first get your rules straight THEN get to learn where they apply. your making a mass of everything man.
There is no rule that arrows do not deliver all thebow damage. Only that they arenot magical by themseleves to break dr.
What I am saying is, that the bonus wouldn't go to damage for the same reasons you can't take weapon specialization for arrows. They aren't weapons, they're ammunition.
You can however take weapon specialization in longbow or shortbow.
first get your rules straight THEN get to learn where they apply. your making a mass of everything man.
Chill a little zza ni. This is the rules forum, where people come to "get their rules straight".
It's a magic all affect that goes to weapon attack and damage rolls, which is the exact point of this post; Does ammunition count as a 'weapon'?
For this purpose (calculating to hit and damage bonuses), yes.
The weapon you are using is a bow and arrow. Remove either of these components and the weapon doesn’t function - you can throw the arrow but it won’t have the strength or range to damage the target, you can twang the bowstring, but without an arrow it does nothing.
OK, from the weapon rules in the core rulebook (linking to PFSRD here)
[url]https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/weapons/#Weapon_Rules[/url]
p140 & 141 of core rulebook
The section below gives us three key pieces - all RAW
1) "All weapons deal hit point damage" (page 140)
2) Both projectile weapons and ammunition are specifically listed as sub categories of weapon on page 141
3) The projectile weapons section on page 141 states it is the projectile weapon doing the damage anyway
Added together these are completely unambiguous - if someone is shot with a bow and arrow, they are taking weapon damage.
-------------------------------------
Weapons
All weapons deal hit point damage. This damage is subtracted from the current hit points of any creature struck by the weapon. When the result of the die roll to make an attack is a natural 20 (that is, the die actually shows a 20), his is known as a critical threat (although some weapons can score a critical threat on a roll of less than 20). If a
critical threat is scored, another attack roll is made, using
the same modifiers as the original attack roll. If this second
attack roll is equal to or greater than the target’s AC, the hit
becomes a critical hit, dealing additional damage.
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons: Anybody but
a druid, monk, or wizard is proficient with all simple
weapons. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers
are proficient with all simple and all martial weapons.
Characters of other classes are proficient with an
assortment of simple weapons and possibly some martial
or even exotic weapons. All characters are proficient with
unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by
their race. A character who uses a weapon with which he is
not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used
for making melee attacks, though some of them can be
thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or
projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears,
ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is
a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets
that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double
the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small
or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature
10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A
typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the
appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away,
but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome
hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and
two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character
can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting
with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack
penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just
as though the character were wielding a one-handed
weapon and a light weapon (see page 202). The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears,
darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents,
shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder
applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown
weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw
a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee
weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range
column on Table 6–4), and a character who does so takes
a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or onehanded
weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two handed
weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the
type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a
natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit.
Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings,
heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows,
longbows, composite longbows, half ling sling staves,
hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile
weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to
use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets
no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile
weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow or
longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low
Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or
a sling.
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition:
arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for
blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and half ling
sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw
ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require
an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions).
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is
destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that
misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are
treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them,
crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them
(see Masterwork Weapons on page 149), and what happens
to them after they are thrown.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons:
This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes
to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee
weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s
size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed
weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to
use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can
be used while grappling (see Chapter 8). Add the wielder’s
Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with
a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or half the
wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using
two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on
damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon
were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either
the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength
bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed
weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength
bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon
is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2
times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a twohanded
melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the
character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee
attacks with such a weapon.
Under projectile weapons it says nothing about how damage is actually applied, pointing out again how ammunition aren't treated the same as weapons.
You said
"Really I am just looking for any RAW source that says explicitly that ammunition are weapons."The text from page 141 specifically lists ammunition as a category of weapon.
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Shadette I think this is most rules lawyering argument, splitting of the finest of hairs I have seen in 40 years of playing RPGs
There’s no RAI, in character logic or game balance argument for your very strange ruling.
Your RAW argument has nothing you quote to support it - only you demanding we give you RAW text to prove you wrong on two separate obscure claims and then denying all rules quoted to you as not being incontrovertible enough in your mind.
You have nothing to positively support any of the claims that
- the bow isn’t the weapon doing the damage
- it makes a difference if the bow or the arrow does the damage
- ammunition doesn’t count as a weapon when used in a bow
This is the second forum I’ve seen you raise this on. On the Facebook group this got hundreds of comments. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON on either forum has agreed with your bizarre logic - does that not make you consider you might be wrong?
Yes inspire courage effects the player. How it effects the player is what I am asking. It's a competence bonus to hit and damage on weapon rolls. I'm saying ammunition isn't inherently a weapon, but used by weapons.
I'm confused. So are you saying a bonus to bow damage rolls does not do anything? Is that your argument?
"No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction."
This insinuates that the weapons effect the ammunition, which directly correlates with why a shortbow and longbow do different damage with the same arrow. The ammunition needs its own enhancement to circumvent DR, which we all know the enhancement tables are separate for weapons and ammunition have some overlap but are still different, for all intents and purposes.
This is about damage reduction, not damage. There's nothing here that says a bow's enhancement bonus doesn't increase the damage from the bow. What it's saying is that if you're fighting a creature with DR/Silver then you need to buy Silver Arrows, you can't just rely on your +3 bow to get through DR like you can with a sword.
Inspire Courage says "Weapon" damage rolls because it's specifically excluding "spell" damage rolls and "spell-like/supernatural ability" damage rolls.
There are even ARCHETYPES based around the bow - which would be a strange choice if it didn't get any bonus from itself.
I guess the question is: Can you post where it says (RAW) that Inspire Courage DOESN'T work with bows?
I'm saying the competence bonus would apply to hit with a bow, but not damage, because Inspire Courage states it's a bonus to weapon and damage rolls.
Why would it not apply to damage rolls? You're attacking with the bow. There is an archetype that gives a "+1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with bows", if arrows had their own damage roll, this would do nothing. Weapon Specialization says you get "a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon", a bunch of stat blocks like this one list Weapon Specialization with a bow.
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I just wanted any source of Paizo material to reference any ammunition (other than shuriken) as a weapon in any sort of written form.
The issue is that this is not relevant. Inspire Courage affects the damage of a bow attack because it's the bow's damage roll, not the arrow's. It doesn't have to directly affect the arrow if you shoot it from a bow, because it already affects the bow.
By this logic magic missile and fireball would also receive the bonus to damage, which I am fairly certain to be wrong. It has to be with a weapon.The character gets the bonus, not the weapons.
The charactee gets a bonus that applies to attack rolls (including things like Scorching ray) and weapon damage rolls (so NOT including things like scorching ray).
The logic works if you follow it through.
I understand where you're coming from, and I even think it IS s good question. There IS a reason to think weapons and ammunition work differently. The FAQ you posted is specifically talking about DR though, not all damage rolls. A +4 bow DOES impart a +4 damage bonus on all arrows fired from that bow. Likewise Inspire Courage works the same way - it increases attack and damage modifiers with weapons (including bows) but won't affect their DR-bypassing capabilities.
If you take a look at the Paizo Iconic characters you'll see that the weapon Enhancement is added to their ranged weapon damage. If that's added why wouod bardic performance act differently.
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For what it's worth archers ARE super strong. You're not alone in thinking that, the archer is usually the highest damage character in the party.
I think that kind of breaks archers a bit and makes them super strong.
Actually, what makes archers "super strong" is mainly melees being hampered by not being able to move and full attack. A properly build melee usually does more damage on a full attack, but has a harder time making that full attack.
And that's why mounted archers are especially powerful.
If you have a class with a built in methods of being good at buffing their damage and access to a mount, you have a recipe for being among the best archers. It's why I loved my Inquisitor archer (one of the Inquisitions grants a companion, can't remember which off the top of my head).
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If you want an example of a song that affects the weapon instead of the character, check out the spell warrior
Enhance Weapons (Su): At 1st level, the spell warrior can grant a +1 enhancement bonus to the weapons (including ammunition) of allies within 60 feet. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, this enhancement bonus increases by 1. The maximum bonus gained is based upon the number of weapons affected: +5 to one weapon, +4 to two weapons, +3 to three weapons, or +2 to four or more weapons. Fifty pieces of ammunition count as one weapon for this purpose. The wielder of a weapon enhanced by this raging song counts as if he were under the effect of an inspired rage raging song for all purposes involving the skald's rage powers.