Shadette's page

And that's why mounted archers are especially powerful.

If you have a class with a built in methods of being good at buffing their damage and access to a mount, you have a recipe for being among the best archers. It's why I loved my Inquisitor archer (one of the Inquisitions grants a companion, can't remember which off the top of my head).

When my wife joined the Bones V Kickstarter, I saw the new war mammoth they will be releasing so I pre-ordered one through her, it immediately made me want to make a mammoth rider, so with this new ruling in mind I am pretty excited to play this character.

So I am wrong, but I'd like to explain my confusion as well.

I was under the impression that a +1 longbow only added the bonus to hit and not damage, giving purpose to enchanted ammunition. I am seeing now in another thread a +1 longbow does 1d8+1. I get what everyone is saying. I think that kind of breaks archers a bit and makes them super strong. Nonetheless that's simply my opinion. Thanks to everyone who stood by their stance and got me to the conclusion. I appreciate everyone's time here.

Shadette wrote:

I just wanted any source of Paizo material to reference any ammunition (other than shuriken) as a weapon in any sort of written form.

The issue is that this is not relevant. Inspire Courage affects the damage of a bow attack because it's the bow's damage roll, not the arrow's. It doesn't have to directly affect the arrow if you shoot it from a bow, because it already affects the bow.

You helped me come to the conclusion. I'll make one final comment.

The character gets the bonus, not the weapons.

By this logic magic missile and fireball would also receive the bonus to damage, which I am fairly certain to be wrong. It has to be with a weapon.

Shadette I think this is most rules lawyering argument, splitting of the finest of hairs I have seen in 40 years of playing RPGs

There’s no RAI, in character logic or game balance argument for your very strange ruling.

Your RAW argument has nothing you quote to support it - only you demanding we give you RAW text to prove you wrong on two separate obscure claims and then denying all rules quoted to you as not being incontrovertible enough in your mind.

You have nothing to positively support any of the claims that
- the bow isn’t the weapon doing the damage
- it makes a difference if the bow or the arrow does the damage
- ammunition doesn’t count as a weapon when used in a bow

This is the second forum I’ve seen you raise this on. On the Facebook group this got hundreds of comments. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON on either forum has agreed with your bizarre logic - does that not make you consider you might be wrong?

I am willing to admit when I am wrong, but I feel no one is appreciating what I am trying to articulate. This is the second time, because I knew here it would be treated more fairly and level-headed. The Facebook thread became a bash post by the Admins own words. One of my players from the campaign agrees with me and another player that is apart of the online groups (from another campaign) also agrees with what I am saying. But to ask them to post online in my defense seems a bit childish.

I've made my points of separation on ammunition vs weapons. I just wanted any source of Paizo material to reference any ammunition (other than shuriken) as a weapon in any sort of written form. Whether it be a rule book, splat book, or adventure path.

I guess the question is: Can you post where it says (RAW) that Inspire Courage DOESN'T work with bows?

I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm saying is it doesn't work for arrows. The bow still gets the bonus to hit.

Shadette wrote:

Yes inspire courage effects the player. How it effects the player is what I am asking. It's a competence bonus to hit and damage on weapon rolls. I'm saying ammunition isn't inherently a weapon, but used by weapons.

I'm confused. So are you saying a bonus to bow damage rolls does not do anything? Is that your argument?

I'm saying the competence bonus would apply to hit with a bow, but not damage, because Inspire Courage states it's a bonus to weapon and damage rolls.

Which is all irrelevant to how Inspire Courage works.

Yes inspire courage effects the player. How it effects the player is what I am asking. It's a competence bonus to hit and damage on weapon rolls. I'm saying ammunition isn't inherently a weapon, but used by weapons.

The weapon sling states

"You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as sense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls."

There is also another Paizo thread asking if rocks are simple or improvised weapons, which the overall agreement seemed to be in combat would be improvised, out of combat a simple weapon.

With this in mind it's clearly drawing a line between ammunition and weapons.

Shadette wrote:

Under projectile weapons it says nothing about how damage is actually applied, pointing out again how ammunition aren't treated the same as weapons.

You said

"Really I am just looking for any RAW source that says explicitly that ammunition are weapons."

The text from page 141 specifically lists ammunition as a category of weapon.

Yes, however the last paragraph of Weapon Rules states:

Again clearly not recognizing ammunition as a weapon, but as an extension of a projectile weapon.

OK, from the weapon rules in the core rulebook (linking to PFSRD here)

[url]https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/weapons/#Weapon_Rules[/url]
p140 & 141 of core rulebook

The section below gives us three key pieces - all RAW
1) "All weapons deal hit point damage" (page 140)
2) Both projectile weapons and ammunition are specifically listed as sub categories of weapon on page 141
3) The projectile weapons section on page 141 states it is the projectile weapon doing the damage anyway

Added together these are completely unambiguous - if someone is shot with a bow and arrow, they are taking weapon damage.

** spoiler omitted **...

Under projectile weapons it says nothing about how damage is actually applied, pointing out again how ammunition aren't treated the same as weapons.

Shadette wrote:

zza ni wrote:

as ammunition doesn't have damage dice listed, but the weapons that fire them do.(look up the weapon table in he core book) i don't see anything wrong with an ability that increases said weapon damage working for it.

long bow uses 1d8, short bow uses 1d6. if you get an ability that increases a weapon's damage by x.(be it weapon specialization,deadly aim or bard song etc) a longbow would do 1d8+x and a short bow do 1d6 +x. you need ammunition to fire the bow. but that doesn't what call for the damage anyway. (unless specific ammunition .like magical is called for with specific rules)

or are you saying people need to take arrows as their weapon focus and weapon specialization feats? and where are they in the fighter weapon groups?
and the damage list on a bow ,is that for whacking some1 with it on the head? why is it piercing?

What your doing is trying to apply specific magic ammu rules onto the general ranged weapon rules and that is just wrong. Specific mean it only apply in specific cases.
Its like saying since i can trip as an attack every attack any1 ever does is also a trip attack.

What I am saying is, that the bonus wouldn't go to damage for the same reasons you can't take weapon specialization for arrows. They aren't weapons, they're ammunition.

what im saying is that arrows (unless specifically enchanted to ADD damage of their own) are only a medium to deliver the BOW'S damage that is why anything that effect the BOW's damage would still work as the BOW is what is dealing the DAMAGE VIA the arrows (like a strength BOW damage being part of the bow and being delivered via the arrow.) that is why the damage is listed in the BOW's table and anything that increase weapon damage (which we both agree is the bow) would well.. increase the weapon's damage (which is the bow) unless yo go...

From that FAQ Link:

"No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction."

This insinuates that the weapons effect the ammunition, which directly correlates with why a shortbow and longbow do different damage with the same arrow. The ammunition needs its own enhancement to circumvent DR, which we all know the enhancement tables are separate for weapons and ammunition have some overlap but are still different, for all intents and purposes.

INSPIRE COURAGE (SU) wrote:

A 1st-level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard's performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.

With the emboldened text (Thank you Mr. Charisma) kept in mind follow this train of thought.

A shortbow does 1d6 with a standard arrow
A longbow does 1d8 with a standard arrow.

This means the weapons' construction/flux/enhancement/overall build is adjusting the damage for ammunition. It's the same arrow whether being shot from a bow, magically, or flung. The weapon firing the ammunition alters the ammunition's damage dice.

Really I am just looking for any RAW source that says explicitly that ammunition are weapons. Or in any APs where a bard and Archer are working and the Archer is receiving the bonus to hit and damage.

I do want to thank everyone for being kind and taking their time on this post.

Inspire courage applies to the person making the attack, not to their weapon or its ammunition. It should work just fine for an archer.

It specifically states a bonus on 'weapons' to hit and 'weapon' damage.

as ammunition doesn't have damage dice listed, but the weapons that fire them do.(look up the weapon table in he core book) i don't see anything wrong with an ability that increases said weapon damage working for it.

long bow uses 1d8, short bow uses 1d6. if you get an ability that increases a weapon's damage by x.(be it weapon specialization,deadly aim or bard song etc) a longbow would do 1d8+x and a short bow do 1d6 +x. you need ammunition to fire the bow. but that doesn't what call for the damage anyway. (unless specific ammunition .like magical is called for with specific rules)

or are you saying people need to take arrows as their weapon focus and weapon specialization feats? and where are they in the fighter weapon groups?
and the damage list on a bow ,is that for whacking some1 with it on the head? why is it piercing?

What your doing is trying to apply specific magic ammu rules onto the general ranged weapon rules and that is just wrong. Specific mean it only apply in specific cases.
Its like saying since i can trip as an attack every attack any1 ever does is also a trip attack.

What I am saying is, that the bonus wouldn't go to damage for the same reasons you can't take weapon specialization for arrows. They aren't weapons, they're ammunition.

I've never played with anyone who didn't let Inspire Courage work for ranged characters.

You're probably thinking that weapon Enchantments work differently for ranged weapons and ammunition. This isn't a weapon enchantment, it's a magical effect that adds to attack and damage rolls.

Don't have anything to quote, but that's how I think of it.

(And it's not a bad question)

Now that reason is a partial to the argument as to why it the inspire courage wouldn't go to the ammunition specifically.

It's a magic all affect that goes to weapon attack and damage rolls, which is the exact point of this post; Does ammunition count as a 'weapon'?

(Thank you, I've gotten a lot of hate and slander over this question.)

Hello, this is my first post, and I made this account because Mr Jason Bulmahn asked me to (I'm the idiot that tagged him on Twitter earlier).

Inspire Courage (Bardic Performance) gives a +1 to hit with weapons and a +1 to damage with weapons.

Ammunition clearly states from weapon RAW that the only piece of ammunition that is considered a weapon is a shuriken. Combined with the enhancement rules that clearly separate weapons, ranged weapons, and ammunition; I'm not convinced the bonus to weapon damage rolls applies to ranged weapons' ammunition.

I am telling my players, not forcing it as rule, that the inspiration only applies to hit and not to damage, because ammunition isn't inherently a weapon, therefore not receiving the bonus.

If anyone could show a source of RAW I'd love to be shown evidence that indicates otherwise. When I originally made this observation my play group lashed out at me, and the follow-up day a player told me that they entirely understood what I was saying.