Here's something that I feel was never fully explored: combat maneuvers... Disarm, Trip, Bull Rush, etc... I don't think they were ever made accessible or even useful.
They all provoke attacks of opportunity unless you possess they Improved feats, which you need either Power Attack or Combat Expertise. Also, you need to trade an attack in order to use these maneuvers, as there's no way to make an attack combined with a maneuver in one roll, at least I haven't found any. Finally, they are often very risky to use, as failing them can be turned against you.
I always thought it was funny that any creature can choose to avoid an Overrun attempt... like... there's no CMD roll to see if to you can avoid or not.
I dunno, I understand that it takes feats to avoid AoO, but I would have made maneuvers an additional effect to a successful hit. That wouldn't defeat the purpose of CMB and CMD, because they would still be used AND sometimes, you will need to use a maneuver before dealing damage.
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They all provoke attacks of opportunity unless you possess they Improved feats, which you need either Power Attack or Combat Expertise.
Dirty Fighting helps with that somewhat.
They all provoke attacks of opportunity unless you possess they Improved feats, which you need either Power Attack or Combat Expertise.Dirty Fighting helps with that somewhat.
The problem is that it's just one way to solve the issue.
1) You need the Improved feat to avoid provoking AoO.
2) The Greater feats just add more stuff... but don't negate the risk of getting disarmed or tripped in return if you fail.
3) It's not an additional effect to a successful attack... which feels natural in some extend.
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Or just using them when the target can't make AoOs against you. (Archers, medium creatures when you have reach, flat-footed opponents, etc.) I had my alchemist snatch the rifle straight out of an enemy's hands in one fight, while he point blank bombed an unarmed spellcaster in another, before walking away as she failed to cast a spell due to tanglefoot bomb. My Growth domain cleric snatched up a fleeing goblin with grapple, no feats needed.
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They all provoke attacks of opportunity unless you possess they Improved feats, which you need either Power Attack or Combat Expertise.Dirty Fighting helps with that somewhat.The problem is that it's just one way to solve the issue.
1) You need the Improved feat to avoid provoking AoO.
No, Dirty Fighting covers that.
Or just using them when the target can't make AoOs against you. (Archers, medium creatures when you have reach, flat-footed opponents, etc.) I had my alchemist snatch the rifle straight out of an enemy's hands in one fight, while he point blank bombed an unarmed spellcaster in another, before walking away as she failed to cast a spell due to tanglefoot bomb. My Growth domain cleric snatched up a fleeing goblin with grapple, no feats needed.
Like I said, maneuvers have uses... but they are more discourageing to use than ever :(
No, Dirty Fighting covers that.They all provoke attacks of opportunity unless you possess they Improved feats, which you need either Power Attack or Combat Expertise.Dirty Fighting helps with that somewhat.The problem is that it's just one way to solve the issue.
1) You need the Improved feat to avoid provoking AoO.
Only if you're flanking an opponent, that's the catch.
Like I said, maneuvers have uses... but they are more discourageing to use than ever :(I don't think that's an issue with the combat maneuver rules then.
The rules themselves are fine... minus that creatures can choose to avoid an Overrun instead of being a CMD roll. The actual problem is taht there are way too many hurdles to jump over in order to make good use of maneuvers, and even then there are still hurdles when you think you're good with maneuvers.
In general, you need 2 feats to use a maneuver without provoking AoO, there's nothing that prevent the target to turn your maneuver against you and you do not receive a free maneuver opportunity after a successful attack as a swift action, like a free disarm or trip roll after hitting with a flail.
Maybe there are ways with the load of feats we have, but in surface, the obvious benefits are inexistant.
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I had to use a reach weapon to make my Trip Oracle work well. AoOs and the Sudden Charge revelation let me keep the squishier party members safe.
I've also seen Sunder and Grapple builds *wreck* things. However... those three are it. I can't remember the last time I saw any of the others used at all. I imagine the size limitations most of them have don't help matters.
I had to use a reach weapon to make my Trip Oracle work well. AoOs and the Sudden Charge revelation let me keep the squishier party members safe.
I've also seen Sunder and Grapple builds *wreck* things. However... those three are it. I can't remember the last time I saw any of the others used at all. I imagine the size limitations most of them have don't help matters.
Dirty trick can be used to really good effect but you've gotta go deep. Reposition and drag just feel like they should be riders to grapple, and disarm is better as of martial arts handbook but as far as good goes its pretty limited to certain styles of campaign, probably really good in hells rebels, not great in wrath of the righteous.
Dirty trick can be used to really good effect but you've gotta go deep. Reposition and drag just feel like they should be riders to grapple, and disarm is better as of martial arts handbook but as far as good goes its pretty limited to certain styles of campaign, probably really good in hells rebels, not great in wrath of the righteous.I had to use a reach weapon to make my Trip Oracle work well. AoOs and the Sudden Charge revelation let me keep the squishier party members safe.
I've also seen Sunder and Grapple builds *wreck* things. However... those three are it. I can't remember the last time I saw any of the others used at all. I imagine the size limitations most of them have don't help matters.
To cover the others:
Overrun responds well to optimisation. Which is counterintuitive because it feels like something that should be done best by big unskilled brutes, who are terrible at it.
Steal is so situational it makes disarm look universally applicable, and should be a subset of disarm really.
Bull rush (shove in PF2) is remarkably pointless and could be removed from the game without harm.
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I have seen Bull Rush push an enemy right back into a flank they stepped out of, allowing the rogue to tank type enemy on their turn. Situational, but moving enemies around the map can matter.
Honestly maneuvers are great fun and tactically useful in the right party, its just another example of 3+ feats per maneuver and if you pick the wrong one the things you're fighting can just be immune.
My preferred solution remains all of the first feats in the chain being condensed into a generic +2CMD/CMB and combat maneuvers do not provoke attacks of opportunity, feat. 1 feat and you aren't punished for attempting any maneuver the current situation requires.
Combat Maneuvers are really quite fun once they work, PF1E just has the dual problems of the barrier to entry being unnecessarily high PLUS that optimizing a particular maneuver too strongly can choke the life out of a game.
Not being able to dabble in a maneuver without feat support is frustrating, especially since most maneuvers are niche to begin with. Simultaneously, I've played games where the PC that optimized for trip or disarm trivializes a whole category of potential opponents. Neither is great.
Dirty trick can be used to really good effect but you've gotta go deep. Reposition and drag just feel like they should be riders to grapple, and disarm is better as of martial arts handbook but as far as good goes its pretty limited to certain styles of campaign, probably really good in hells rebels, not great in wrath of the righteous.
I can see repositioning to allow flanking, such as in between 2 characters. Drag is problematic because you would probably prefer to Bull Rush the opponent instead of Dragging it.
Steal is so situational it makes disarm look universally applicable, and should be a subset of disarm really.
Steal fits more for rogues though.
Combat maneuvers can be fun.
I've repositioned people off bridges into boiling blood, bull rushed them through various types of Walls/Blade Barriers, dragged them from behind cover, etc. They aren't always useful but removing them entirely would be a shame.
Far from me to remove them, I just wished they were way more accessible. Why do I need Combat Expertise or Power Attack to use them without an AoO? Why does Greater [Maneuver] not prevent the target to use that same maneuver against me if I fail? Why do I absolutely need specific weapons to trip, but not to disarm? Why do I see many swashbucklers being to disarm opponent with their rapiers while THAT doesn't even have the Disarm quality? Why do some chain/rope-like weapons have either the Disarm or the Trip quality, but rarely both?
That's what I mean by accessibility. Maneuvers are incredibly versatile and can be quite useful, but come on, they are also tediously annoying to use.
Personally if you have at least a +1BA, then you should be able to use any combat maneuver without provoking.
That would just make it better for monsters and villains who are a higher level then you are.
BAB ruling would be a bad idea...
The best way to make them appealing is to grant the user of the Improved Maneuver feats a non-counterable option in addition of not provoking an AoO, unless both opponents have the same feat and/or one of them has the Greater Maneuver feat.
There's already a rule with the CMB and CMD for maneuvers. The problem is that it's way too risky to use them. I would have loved to mitigate those risks the more powerful you get in levels, by selecting feats for instance.
BAB ruling would be a bad idea...
The best way to make them appealing is to grant the user of the Improved Maneuver feats a non-counterable option in addition of not provoking an AoO, unless both opponents have the same feat and/or one of them has the Greater Maneuver feat.
There's already a rule with the CMB and CMD for maneuvers. The problem is that it's way too risky to use them. I would have loved to mitigate those risks the more powerful you get in levels, by selecting feats for instance.
I really think that the improved feats need to be removed entirely. There are a ton of maneuvers as is, and if every one of the greater feats is going to have some rider associated with it It takes 25% of your non bonus feats for competence in one maneuver, I don't feel like they have any kind of an effect that warrants a 25% investment of your feat choices.
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Ohh, Ooooh..I wish they'd done racial weapon groups that include all the weapons that fall under 'weapon training' plus a handful of other iconic choices for that particular race's fighting style.
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How's this for an idea: maneuvers don't provoke AoO unless you have the Maneuver Defense feat where maneuvers against you do provoke. If your AoO hits, your opponent can't perform the maneuver. Thoughts?
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Spheres did it pretty elegantly. A large number of spheres have ways to apply the Battered condition that makes people unable to AoO maneuvers and gives a -2 to CMD.
I like simple solution of an early version of the Elephant in the Room rules: the 'Improved' feats for strength-based maneuvers (Bull Rush, Overrun, Sunder, etc.) were combined into one feat, and the same feats for dexterity-based feats (Disarm, Dirty Trick, Disarm, etc.) and Improved Feint were merged into another. Grapple was kept as is, I believe.
(I don't think the version I'm referring to ended up being all that different than the final version, regarding maneuver feats, actually.)
There's been a bunch of fixes proposed. I still like the one where the AoO simply doesn't impose a penalty to the combat maneuver. You can try to bull rush or whatever as a last ditch thing without it being an obvious waste of time, and the rule change is the minimum possible - you could use existing creatures and stat blocks.
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I wish they'd sorted out the bardic masterpiece faq. That is all.
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Would have loved a version of the bard that had no spell casting and completely focused on bardic performance. Basically adding a new bardic performance each level of the player's choice.
Bardic Performance ideas
-Deal damage to all undead in a 60' radius each round of performing.
-Haste effect to all allies.
-Energy resistance to all allies.
-Heroism/Greater Heroism to one ally.
-Grant fast healing to all allies.
-Heal spell effect to one ally.
-Confusion effect to all enemies in a 30' radius.
-Sleep effect to all enemies in a 20' radius.
-All allies gain a bonus to AC/saves.
-All allies gain a bonus on caster level checks, spell DCs.
-Plant growth effect.
-Animate object spell effect.
-Deal sonic damage to one or more enemies.
-All allies weapon's do +1d6 energy damage of your choice.
-Deal damage to all (non-magical) objects and construct creatures in a 60's radius.
-Repulsion effect targeting one creature type/subtype.
-Summon monster/Summon nature's ally effect, duration based on how long you perform.
-Charm/dominate effect to one target that last as long as you continue to play.
-Protection from arrows spell effect to all allies.
-Entangle spell effect.
-Protection vs diseases/poisons.
-Various curative effects.
-Invisibility/Greater invisibility to allies as long as you perform.
-Grant allies ghost touch weapon/armor effects to all allies.
-Freedom of movement effect to all allies.
-Make whole spell effect.
-Slow spell effect to all enemies in a 30' radius.
-Fear effect to all enemies in a 30's radius.
-Fabricate spell effect(use performance skill instead of craft skill).
-Mirror image effect(self only).
-Various polymorph effects(self only).
-Baleful polymorph effect to one enemy.
-Create magical darkness while performing.
-Create magical light while performing.
-Control weather while performing.
-Animate dead effect while performing.
-Grant all allies evasion/improved evasion.
-Grant all allies uncanny doge/improved uncanny dodge.
-Transformation spell effect(self only).
-Mage's sword spell effect.
-Irresistible dance spell effect(one target).
Also the ability to combine 2(or even 3) performances at once at mid to high levels.
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I have seen other people on this wish list wished that Paizo broke the rule of 5 dragons per group for the other group of dragons like they did for Planar dragons.
Chromatic- Grey, Orange, Yellow, Indigo, Violet
Metallic- Adamantine, Iron, Mithril, Mercury, Steel, etc.
Primal- Positive Energy Plane/Life, First World/Sylvan
Imperial- Earth, Harvest, Mountain, River, Thunder
Outer- Asteroid, Comet, Gravity, Nebula, Planetary
Occult- Empath, Kinetic, Mystic, Phantom, Spirit
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Would have loved a version of the bard that had no spell casting and completely focused on bardic performance. Basically adding a new bardic performance each level of the player's choice.
Or there were enough Bardic Masterpieces (with a 1 round activation time, too boot) to be able to replace a Bard's entire spell list. Instead of learning spells, they learn an entire array of special masterpieces that evoke powers related to historically or culturally significant events / tales.
But yeah, definitely. Versions of several non-primary spellcasting classes that replace the spellcasting with something else, including Rangers, Paladins, Bards, Magi, Alchemists, Inquisitors, etc. could be fun.
Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a version of *Cleric* that replaced spellcasting with a *large* variety of uses for Channel Energy (and vastly more uses / day, for the lesser effects, particularly, with some perhaps even being unlimited). This channel blesses your allies, and banes your enemies, this channel exorcises / cures another by purging evil / disease / poison / curses / possessing entities, etc. Or a version of Witch that used a greatly enhanced version of Hexes exclusively (and had a more survivable/replaceable familiar, perhaps), and had no spellcasting. Or an Oracle who had greatly expanded access to Revelations, enough to function like a sort of 3.5 Warlock, instead of spells.
I have seen other people on this wish list wished that Paizo broke the rule of 5 dragons per group for the other group of dragons like they did for Planar dragons.
The reason is simple: back in AD&D 2e, there were more than 5 Chromatic and Metallic Dragons. The Brown, Yellow and Steel dragons existed. However, in 3e, they kinda retconned that idea, but in their Paizo Magasine run, they added the Purple, Orange, Yellow, Steel, even Adamantium (Metallic/Planar hybrid) and ferrous dragons, and Brown was in a Faerun booklet. Furthermore, in 4e, they made the Sand Dragon Brown, the Deep Dragon Purple and the Fang Dragon Grey.
Also, a lot of speculations is that since Tiamat is the 5-headed Chromatic Dragon Goddess, there cannot be more than 5 Chromatic species, and by the same idea, no more than 5 Metallic species.
What threw a curve ball is that there were more than 5 Planar Dragons, as more of these were detailled in APs, after B6's release.
Almost forgot about the Deep, Fang, and Sand dragons...that brings me back.
Yeah a lot more spell-less archetypes for many classes would have been cool, though I think we covered this on this wish list already.
JiCi, with that kind of logic, there would have been only one metallic dragon.
I wish every class/archetype/race that got a breath weapon didn't have a limit in uses except the standard 1d4 round recharge time.
Not added a 3/day limit on Mauler Familiar's Battle Form ability. I can understand making it a Polymorph ability, like it was supposed to be, but going from at-will to three times a day? Even on an ability that doesn't have a time limit that still seems like a poor way to go.
Considering how limiting that archetype is, you would be better with a regular familiar BUT with an item that casts Polymorph Familiar or Beast Shape, such as a collar or a saddle :P.
Here's something a bit odd to omit: How many armors can druid wear again?
Padded (Light)
Quilted cloth (Light)
Reinforced tunic (Light)
Leather (Light)
Rosewood armor (Light)
Varisian dancing scarves (Light)
Hellknight leather (Light)
Hide shirt (Light)
Leaf armor (Light)
Wooden (Light)
Lamellar (leather) (Light)
Hide (Medium)
Stone plate (heavy)
Yeah... anyone here who wished for more Medium and Heavy non-ferrous armor suits? Yes, you can have ferrous armors made in non-ferrous materials, but these cost a lot of money, more to simply purchase a suit.
Yeah... anyone here who wished for more Medium and Heavy non-ferrous armor suits? Yes, you can have ferrous armors made in non-ferrous materials, but these cost a lot of money, more to simply purchase a suit.Alternatively dump that stupid legacy and just let them wear metal.
The rule itself makes sense, but the options are so limited that it's a huge penalty in the end.
Darkwood?
Also, from a story prospective, it makes sense that druids can't use metal. The amount of civilization required to mine, refine, and form raw metal into armor would be something they would be diametrically opposed to. Heck, I've wondered if druids need to be proficient with metallic weapons, but that means limiting them to clubs, staves, and spears and is unacceptable.
Darkwood?
Not sure players liked paying an extra 200 and 450 gp for a suit...
Not sure players liked paying an extra 200 and 450 gp for a suit...
I'm not calling it fair, but it is an option not mentioned above.