I'm not interested in if you don't plan to use them; I'm only interested in how people affirmatively intend to use them or something like them
I've been fiddling with how to incorporate these or something like these into my own games. I like the idea of the Intercessions being a reward from the DM on the boon side and a way to make the gods seem more involved.
Currently debating:
(1) Should it be only clerics, champions, and particularly devout individuals? Or folks who make it a really big roleplay moment?
(2) Should I tack it on to the hero point system for clerics/champions and allow their hero point usage to be a little more interesting. Maybe levels 1-6 use a minor intercession if they cash in, say, 2 hero points. Levels 7-13 get a minor or moderate boon, etc. I know the book says basically not to let players have more control over these things, and have them be almost entirely DM fiat, but I like the idea that clerics and champions might be able to have a slightly more nuanced hero point usage.
(3) How to handle curses. I think I'd be reserving this strictly for narrative purposes, like if the players are rooting out a den of Lamashtu's cultists and that pisses the god off, or if they consecrate (i.e. defile) an altar to an evil god.
They're very narrative and probably pretty context specific, but I'm wondering how other people plan to handle these.
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I'll confess I haven't seen the full Intercession description aside from what is described in the free supplement, but I'm definitely very interested in them.
My first thought is definitely not just to limit them to divine classes. I note you add 'devout individuals' but I wanted to make it clear I believe anybody who worships a particular deity is a potential candidate to be affected by an intercession--as well as to lesser extent anybody who manages to catch that deity's attention. I feel like the likelihood of an intercession coming up should be roughly proportional to how seriously they take their faith. I don't think you have to be uncommonly devout, but I feel like lip-service devotees are only likely to experience anything above a generic sign if they seriously offend or impress their deity, while someone who consciously follows the edicts is more likely to notice their deity's favour or disfavour accordingly.
I think the example used on the stream was that a worshiper of Cayden Cailean who goes on a bad bender and gets lousy drunk might find their drink turning sour (minor curse I assume) as a gentler reprimand for breaking his anathema than would be to be excommunicated from the faith. In general I feel like at least the minor curse should be the deity's way of saying "Hey, you messed up, you're usually better than that."
I think having hero points associated with the minor-tier benefits might be interesting but also the guidelines suggest that intercessions should occur only rarely to maintain the mystique, which as you note feels somewhat at odds with tying them to hero points. If you do, I don't feel like being able to call on moderate boons on demand would be appropriate except maybe at very high levels and/or at cost of all remaining points.
I have a champion of Sarenrae in my party and a monk/bard acolyte newly converted from Pharasma to 'Three Lovers' (Desna, Sarenrae, Shelyn, emphasis on Desna), as well as a 'wielder of many faiths' who carries holy symbols of 20 different deities who nevertheless holds a candle for Pharasma over all others. Being as the monk-bard has consecrated a lost temple of Desna (Carrion Crown AP), I consider her and the champion the most devout to their deities, and so the most likely for me to nudge them if they violate their anathema or reward them with a boon in a pinch. The Pharasmin fortune-teller I feel like is mostly off their goddess' radar (and they're okay with that) but if they were desperate enough or did something egregious enough Pharasma might take the opportunity to remind them who she is. The final two are nominally faithful to Gozreh (ranger) and Magrim (dwarf) and unlikely to see anything unless they make a point of minding their deities' teachings.
IN summary, I do plan to use intercessions as a mainly narrative thing that wouldn't come up every session but might if somebody has to skirt especially close to violating their deity's anathema or calls out for help in a time of need. It's hard to describe my general understanding without re-using the same phrases from the guidelines, but in general I feel like it's at least partly a question of how much your deity pays attention to you. The more devout you are (i.e. the more attention you pay to your deity) the more likely they are following your actions and the higher standard you are held to. If you violate an anathema in a minor way, or aren't very religious, you're probably not worth the effort unless you do something big or especially offensive in the deity's name. Likewise, if you don't really follow edicts much, you probably shouldn't expect your deity to do anything for you, except perhaps as a carrot to encourage future behaviours.
The reward/punishment is likely proportional to the need/crime. For curses I feel like you probably won't see the moderate/major tiers until after you've been hit with the lower tiers a couple times and clearly haven't gotten the message, increasing with the severity and scale of the blasphemy. Boons would be relative to the need, unless given as a response for especially virtuous acts that further a deity's cause.
I think that the divine intercession are more closely tied to the worshiper, be they cleric/paladins or not.
I kinda like the idea that player might be able to call upon their gods for intercessions using hero points but it might get out of hand quickly.
I don't want my players to get the benefits from an intercession juste by praying and giving away their hero points and I feel it's more a roleplay thing than anything. Sure it has great benefits but it shall reward the truly devout.
For the curses I think everyone could be affected but only in case of actions of importance if they are not worshipers.
Like a slight disrespect of the anathema might result in a minor curse for a cleric but not for a non follower. Like a warning that, even if the church didn't see the action, the god did and is not pleased : you can still recieve spells but maybe not for a long time if you continue like this.
For the moderate and major, I don't see them comming from nowhere, unless you have been warned you shouldn't get them. But you could if you desacrate an altar or kill a servant of the god. Especially given the nature of the major curses, a player shall know what might come to him before taking the decision (just look at Achaekek for an extreme case)
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I plan to use the Achaekek Major Curse every time I run out of ***** to give as a GM.
"Hey, so I decided to try and convert Sacred Geometry to 2e and I really think that you sh-"
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I plan on tying them to roleplay, rather than spending HP or similar.
I'm currently preparing for running Kingmaker, and will probably have a Champion of Sarenrae. If the Champion succeeds in redeeming one of NPCs like Akiros, then Sarenrae will reward them with a boon. If one of the other PCs helps out significantly, they might also get a boon, even if they're not worshippers of Sarenrae. I plan on checking out the anathema and edicts of the PC's gods and other significant campaign deities to see what king of actions might trigger boons or curses. I think they'll be a really nice way of making the religion of the world feel real and impactful, rather than choice of god being only relevant for cleric types.
Pretty sure the book says there should be no mechanical "surefire" way to access the Intercessions, so they should 100% be GM dependant so thay cannot be abused.
Think the minor blessing is supposed be given pretty liberally, to anyone that is making a conscious effort to RP their religion without necessarily being a Cleric (those already being blessed with their spellcasting), good way to get the players more involved with their deity choice.
No idea what would warrant one of the Big blessings, though, some are ridiculous and cna be pretty disruptive.
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I do recognize that the book tells you that the boons/curses should be out of a player's control. Higher level boons definitely not, even some moderate ones can be pretty good and I think those will have to be DM discretion. But many of the minor boons can be pretty niche and not particularly powerful generally. Irori has as an example, I think, rerolling a consequential Recall Knowledge check or something.
I'm waffling with allowing hero point use for them. I'd probably still be the final arbiter of whether or not the situation calls for an intercession, which is how the book lays it out, so really that might as well be the same thing but with a hero point cost. It's not that I want to give the players control over it, per se, but I find players remember these things more when there's a cost associated with them. I might make it an "ability" people can write down next to their hero point tally so that they remember these exist.
That takes some strain off of me so I don't have to be constantly thinking about whether to give a boon. Having it as an "option" also lets the player think about it and suggest it and gives them a little bit of agency. Plus, it might help some players look at the game world more in terms of how they could fit their character's devotion into the narrative. I think at least for my table that might see the players look for moments where their character would pray to their god(s) for help.
As far as cleric/champion only, I think anyone should be able to get an intercession if their character does more than pay lip service to a god. Writing down "Torag" on the character sheet and then never mentioning it again probably won't qualify, but I won't deny an intercession to the Bard who hams it up to Cayden Cailean on the reg. I'd love to have a table with a party that all roleplay their character's religions to some extent.
I do really like the idea that a minor curse being a way to briefly zap a player who violates anathema, without having to go through the whole "You lose your powers, go and atone" business for small transgressions. That'd make things seem a bit more alive and explain why those edicts and anathema are so important to folks who get so much power from their gods.
Oh, and boons for characters who aren't followers of a god but nonetheless help that god's devout in a meaningful way seems fun too.
I also like the idea that high level clerics and champions (and possibly other followers) could occasionally inflict their deity's minor or moderate curse on a creature once in a while.
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Do remember that boons and curses are both meant for the WORSHIPERS of the god in general
Meaning people who Achaekek would "nope" out of existence are probably really stupid red mantis assassins :p
Presumably people who aren't their worshippers have diplomatic immunity from other gods ;P
My plan is that, for the most part, gods only care about their own in terms of boons and curses.
If, for example, you worship Desna, cleric or not, you'll get her boons if you do something super Desnan in terms of edicts, like go out of you way to save the life of a traveler, inspire the downtrodden, etc. If you violate her anathema, like deliberately spreading fear (I wouldn't count things like using the Fear spell or demoralize if targeting sinister foes, but I would say Coerce in many cases would), being a bigot, or stifling creativity, you'd get the curse.
I do plan to throw exceptions though for stepping on holy land or performing obediences or acts honoring or opposing a god, whether you follow them or not, circumstance depending. Like, a CN Nethysian wizard might still get Desna's boon by leaving an offering of a healing potion at a shrine of hers, and anyone attempting to bring harm to a sanctified (or desecrated) place might be subject to that deity's curse!
I feel it's worth pointing out (particularly since I forgot to address it myself earlier) but while boons are mentioned as being largely specific to worshipers of a deity, curses are called out as potentially applying to anyone who suitably offends a deity. The impression I get is that the minimum bar for non-worshipers being cursed by a deity is much higher than for lay adherents or clergy. This is part of why I picture it as a question of how much of a deity's attention you have. As the text suggests, even among the core 20 alone, if simply violating a deity's anathema carried a chance of being cursed, it would be impossible for most people to just live a normal life much less go adventuring (for example, every sighting of an undead is a gamble whether one of Pharasma or Urgathoa curses you depending how you react).
Even for a worshiper I don't think every breach of anathema necessarily results in a curse--the core description of anathema makes it clear that a cleric should not necessarily lose their powers on the first breach, and I apply the same expectation to other worshipers--an accidental violation, or being forced into a situation where a violation is the least bad option might come with a sign of displeasure (no mechanical effect) as a reminder not to do that again, while carelessly violating an anathema, even if you didn't mean to, is more likely to invoke a curse.
Again, I imagine clerics are held to somewhat higher standards than lay worshipers, and laity held to higher standards than non-worshipers, so if you, a worshiper of Pharasma happen to kill a zombie or vampire, you're likely to displease Urgathoa, but odds are she wasn't watching that random mook anyway. Killing a Daughter of Urgathoa on the other hand is much more likely to incur her direct wrath, but I'm uncertain how often it should be expected that killing a worshiper of a deity is likely to incur their immediate reprisal. Doing the same while in a temple dedicated to Urgathoa, or directly opposing Urgathoa's plots likewise increase the odds of such a retribution--as in the Pathfinder novel where the main character is cursed by the Pallid Princess while staying in Ustalav as a result of some actions he no longer remembers.
Right. I think you have to do something to actually get a deity's attention to get either a curse or a boon.
As far as breaking anathema and getting a minor curse goes, I'll probably play it as very minor or unintentional violations would probably not get anything. Nethys I think is a good example of where these would be happening constantly, and I don't think forcing players to tell me that they're using prestidigitation or else they get a curse is particularly fun or interesting.
But if a cleric/champion player knowingly breaks their anathema, or makes a choice and decides that breaking anathema is worth it, or are constantly and knowingly trying to bend the rules even if they know it's against anathema, then a brief time with a minor curse seems appropriate. Sort of a slap on the wrist for a day to remind them who they serve.
Devout individuals who don't have a mechanical anathema as part of their class I probably wouldn't touch with that kind of curse, unless the player makes a point of both worshiping Torag really hard and also constantly telling me that they're making shoddy works. But that's not likely to ever come up.
The more fun curses will definitely be the ones where players tick off a god for one reason or another, usually by desecrating a holy place or a boss-level representative. Outside of really blatant or disrespectful things, though, I think most gods wouldn't be too interested in cursing some numbnuts who crossed them unless it happens to be a cleric/champion of one of their hated enemies. In which case you could have some interesting intercession wars going on, if the offender is suitably high level...
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I intend to look up some curse and make a character based on it. Maybe it the goal of getting hid of the curse or simply accepting it. Seems like a great opportunity for a character's background.
Devout individuals who don't have a mechanical anathema as part of their class I probably wouldn't touch with that kind of curse, unless the player makes a point of both worshiping Torag really hard and also constantly telling me that they're making shoddy works. But that's not likely to ever come up.
Personally I would apply anathema to lay worshipers same as for cleric/champions. They may not lose class features if they violate this anathema, but I feel like they should still abide by their deity's most code. I would perhaps hold them to a lower standard, but if they are at all serious about their worship they should avoid those anathema actions as much as possible (and if they're not serious... As long as they don't invoke their deity's name or get their attention in other blatant ways while violating the anathema the ~should~ be fine.
Personally I would apply anathema to lay worshipers same as for cleric/champions. They may not lose class features if they violate this anathema, but I feel like they should still abide by their deity's most code. I would perhaps hold them to a lower standard, but if they are at all serious about their worship they should avoid those anathema actions as much as possible (and if they're not serious... As long as they don't invoke their deity's name or get their attention in other blatant ways while violating the anathema the ~should~ be fine.Devout individuals who don't have a mechanical anathema as part of their class I probably wouldn't touch with that kind of curse, unless the player makes a point of both worshiping Torag really hard and also constantly telling me that they're making shoddy works. But that's not likely to ever come up.
While that can veer towards punishment kinda fast, I kinda agree with you. If someone chooses a deity to worship as one of the significant parts of their character, then they probably want the character to have a strong incline for that type of behavior the Deity embodies, so I think that frequently behaving against the deity's explicit teachings would not only be against it but also against themselves, otherwise the character wouldn't be worshiping such a deity in the first place (unless it was working as intended, of course).
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My party's warpriest of Gorum has been such a consistent example of faith to his god (including nearly dying multiple times) that I've flat out told him he can pull out the minor boon whenever he wants.
I plan on giving him the moderate boon as a permanent buff if he follows through on his plan to build a temple to his god in the PC's base of operations.
I'm gonna save the major boon for if it looks like he really might die in a pivotal battle.
I think I'd only punish a devout, non-cleric/champion character with a curse for violating anathema if that player also wanted to sign that character up for consistent boons and wants to do some serious roleplaying, or if they do something absolutely egregious.
It might be easiest to look at it in terms of shades of devotion, both from a player and a character perspective.
Most players I would guess just write down a god on their character sheet and then dive in without really thinking about how a god fits into their character's background and day-to-day living. I wouldn't qualify these characters for either boons or curses--again, barring something big in the narrative--because their player doesn't really care. Just a mechanic I won't be concerned with for them.
The players who play a cleric/champion are explicitly, I think, signing themselves up for this. The deity is part of the class. It's a mechanic. It makes sense that they'd be getting more boons from their god and crossing the line on anathema would be grounds for chastisement. I think there's also an argument that they're involved in Deific Politics to an extent, too, and at higher levels might be recognized as a significant chess piece on both sides of the coin.
The players who play a non-cleric/champion but make a point of roleplaying their devotion to a god (which I would guess are a small minority of players, just from my experience) I would consider for boons/curses. However, I'd consider them for both much less frequently than I would for cleric/champion characters until higher levels where the deity might start to consider them a worthwhile investment, or at least a Mortal of Note.
For me boons/curses comes down mostly to how much the deity cares about this individual. Handing them out to clerics/champions makes sense; these guys get actual power from the deity, they have at least a small personal connection with the deity, and they're entrusted with representing the deity and using that power to carry out the deity's edicts while avoiding anathema. I guess basically for me, a devout character isn't important enough to the deity one way or the other. It's the difference between a person who goes to worship every week and a [insert religious figure here]; one is devoted, but the other lives and breathes the religion.
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Some things I'm planning on: