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It seems like a pointless "class feature" to gain martial weapon training as a Warpriest, given that:
1. Most deities have simple weapons as their favored weapons.
2. Warpriests only get improved proficiency in their deity's favored weapon
Between higher proficiency and Deadly Simplicity, a Warpriest of a deity with a simple favored weapon is likely better off using the favored weapon. And Warpriests of a deity with a martial or even Exotic favored weapon are already proficient with that weapon at level 1. So what's the point of wasting a Doctrine ability on martial weapon training?
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...The gods work in mysterious ways? ;-D
Yeah, this is one of things I think could be tweaked (->Expert progression) on Warpriest.
+d10 HP or ArmorSpec later? (Resist one of B/S/P or more VS Crits)
It needs Class DC to be able to use CritSpec for Brawling Deity Weapons.
(also true for Cloistered who also gets Deity Weapon CritSpec later)
Class DC defaults to Key Stat(WIS), so if they get it, Cloistered ironically might be stronger in this weapon aspect.
STR/DEX as Key Stat bonus swap would be nice option (generally, and for above Class DC reason )
+maybe CritSpec on more weapons (by Weapon Group?) if you're supposed to actually use weapons other than Deity Weapon?
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It allows them to qualify for dedications that require certain weapon proficiencies more easily. That's really all it does.
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It allows them to qualify for dedications that require certain weapon proficiencies more easily. That's really all it does.
Well I do get that point, however I also do find the argument that the WP's selling point is that he is better for MC'ing because of his inherent weapon and armor proficiencies quite moot. Any (sub-) class needs to be able to shine on it's own, not only as a better chassis for multiclassing.
@OP: At least low level it can be used for shield bashing mooks (e.g. I already used it vs skeletons) or for using a more potent ranged weapon (e.g. long bow). That having said this class feature is indeed quite lame and feels like a "filler" class feat from former editions. When my WP reached level 3 I was: "Ok, what do I get? Oh, quite nothing..."
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It also expands the range of back up weapons. A composite longbow is going to be better than a crossbow.
Yes and no.
There is no debate that a composite longbow is a better weapon than a crossbow, however efficiency of this class feature drastically drops as levels advance. Considering a maximum starting attribute of 16 in either dexterity or strength and when compared to other martials (not considering the fighter) the difference becomes noticable as early as level 5 and considerable from level 10 onward.
-1 at levels 3-4 (16 attribute vs 18 attribute)
-2 at levels 5-9 (18 attribute vs 19 attribute)
-3 at levels 10-12 (19 attribute vs 20 attribute)
-5 at levels 13-14 (19 attribute vs 20 attribute)
-4 at levels 15-19 (20 attribute vs 21 attribute)
-5 at levels 20-20 (21 attribute vs 22 attribute)
Also note that from level 11 onward even a wizard with a crossbow will trump you in proficiency levels, hitting and critting 2 points better than your precious composite longbow.
I guess many WP players would rather have heavy armour proficiency trained at level 3 (and upgraded at 13)...
It needs Class DC to be able to use CritSpec for Brawling Deity Weapons.
They already have it, or at least the equivalent. Clerics using either of the existing doctrines already use their divine spell DC (which would be the same as their Class DC anyways if they had one).
Third Doctrine (7th): You gain expert proficiency with your deity’s favored weapon. When you critically succeed at an attack roll using that weapon, you apply the weapon’s critical specialization effect; use your divine spell DC if necessary.
I agree scaling the martial proficiency to expert somewhere in the 11 to 15th level range would make the class progression feel smoother. As it is, ancestral feats can be used to bump up proficiency at 13th for alternate weapons which is a sort of band aid. The martial proficiency interestingly does allow for racial advanced weapon use starting at 3rd, and upgrading at 13th with the expert racial feats. Grabbing a Gnomish Flickmace or Dwarven Waraxe is not nothing.
A Cloistered cleric wouldn't be able to do that at 3rd without spending an additional general feat or class feat to grab the Fighter multiclass dedication. If they want to spend the same number of feats as the warpriest, they'd need to wait until 13th to use a Gnomish flickmace for example.
In the 3rd to 10th level range (i.e. generally more than half a typical campaign, although even a full 1-20 campaign its roughly 1/3 of play time) it is a useful benefit, expanding out the options for alternative weapons. As noted it begins to fall off at 11th, but again, ancestral feats can start picking up some of that slack at 13th.
The developers were probably looking at the fact trained versus untrained is a huge difference. Trying to pickup that conveniently placed magic silver sword for slaying a vampire as you break out of your cell at 11th level is +13 more to hit on the Warpriest compared to the untrained cloistered cleric. Sometimes it is handy to pick up what the your enemy just dropped or what ever is around and be able to at least have a chance to hit.
From an optimal play perspective, martial trained proficiency at 11th and higher is certainly on the weak end of things. It is worth one general feat and I wouldn't call it pointless. At the same level cloistered cleric is getting a benefit that is worth a little less than one general feat. Their fortitude goes from trained to expert. But Uncanny Acumen does the same thing, but also raises it again at 17th level to master.
From an optimal play perspective, martial trained proficiency at 11th and higher is certainly on the weak end of things. It is worth one general feat and I wouldn't call it pointless. At the same level cloistered cleric is getting a benefit that is worth a little less than one general feat. Their fortitude goes from trained to expert. But Uncanny Acumen does the same thing, but also raises it again at 17th level to master.
The difference being that for the CC that improvement is a vertical one, i.e. directly adding to his power, no matter how his general build is, but for the WP the improvement is a horizontal one, i.e. just widening your band of options and not really adding anything unless you specifically build for it.
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Overall this edition seems to emphasize broadening - there are far fewer powers that push you to hunker down on just one specialist weapon.
When using a not-quite-favorite weapon allows you to circumvent an enemy's resistance or exploit a weakness, that's a bit like 1E power attack: take a to-hit penalty for a damage upgrade. Depending on the exact numbers, that's occasionally a good trade.
When using a not-quite-favorite weapon allows you to circumvent an enemy's resistance or exploit a weakness, that's a bit like 1E power attack: take a to-hit penalty for a damage upgrade. Depending on the exact numbers, that's occasionally a good trade.
As long as I don't need a caddy for all my golf clubs (bulk) I am ok with this... ;)
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Overall this edition seems to emphasize broadening - there are far fewer powers that push you to hunker down on just one specialist weapon.
The problem is this isn't true for the Cleric.
You only ever get expert proficiency with one specific category of weapon. They're very much pushed ot hunker down on one specialist weapon.
From comments made by developers, it is pretty clear that class design is centrally focused on thinking about what a character does with their three actions and their reaction every round. That this is a defining aspect of how this class-based system is supposed to operate.
One of the reason's why casters are limited to Expert proficiency with weapons PF2 is because there is an expectation that at higher levels, casters will be casting spells with 2 or more actions every turn. I believe that one of the little math tricks the developers did with the proficiency system is to deliberately turn casters 1st attack into a martial's 2nd, and then 3rd attack over level.
The idea here is that it is balanced at higher levels, because casters will have an increasing number of options for spells that they can cast, often far exceeding the effectiveness of what a martial can do with 2 actions, so that by level 11 or higher, any full caster is going to readily be willing to cast a spell every round.
They also deliberately limited durations to make the type of advanced buff casting incredibly limited and gave casters a lot of higher level spells (like the form spells) that essentially cast a bunch of buffs on you at once to push you into having to dole out your spell resources over the course of the combat, instead of right before it, which was the main stay of PF1.
By giving the warpriest training in martial weapons, the warpriest can choose to cary a weapon with interesting traits, many of which can be used with the athletics skill just about as effectively by a war priest as by any full martial. I think that warpriests get the Training in Martial weapons more to encourage them to consider alternate combat utility that DPR. By being at least trained in all martial weapons, a warpriest can cary a weapon with a couple of interesting traits, but still be able to use it somewhat effectively in the event that hitting and doing damage with it is the most necessary action they need to take, (whereas a character carrying a weapon they are not proficient in would have to drop the weapon and punch).
I don't think I am in love with this set up, but it feels like that is the mentality behind it. The issue for me is that the doctrine system for clerics feels a little too forced and like it is grasping for uniqueness when it could have just offered many of the options as class feats that clerics could take. I don't think it would have broke the game for all casters to get a first level feat and then clerics and druids get a feat option that allowed trained proficiency in a specific kind of armor instead of trying to work that into class features, but maybe that would have been erosive to the purpose of having a class system, and provided too many MCing shenanigans.
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I feel like once upon a time there was a plan for general feats that required "combat competency" as a prereq thus asking for "trained in all martial weapons". So you give Warpriest martial training so they can take those general feats.
It's just that they don't exist yet.
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The idea here is that it is balanced at higher levels, because casters will have an increasing number of options for spells that they can cast, often far exceeding the effectiveness of what a martial can do with 2 actions, so that by level 11 or higher, any full caster is going to readily be willing to cast a spell every round.
Not entirely sold on this idea as sustainability often is key (aka how many encounters the day can you last). So when looking for balance you not only need to ask yourself, what can class X do as long as it is able to cast meaningful spells, but you also need to ask yourself, what can class X do if it is not forced/required to cast a (real) spell? Cantrips partially solve this question, especially if you have ninja'ed electric arc and/or maxed WIS for spell attack and DC, however they are still 2 actions to cast, so many players may look for at least baseline effective, mundane actions as an alternative to casting.
By giving the warpriest training in martial weapons, the warpriest can choose to cary a weapon with interesting traits, many of which can be used with the athletics skill just about as effectively by a war priest as by any full martial. I think that warpriests get the Training in Martial weapons more to encourage them to consider alternate combat utility that DPR. By being at least trained in all martial weapons, a warpriest can cary a weapon with a couple of interesting traits, but still be able to use it somewhat effectively in the event that hitting and doing damage with it is the most necessary action they need to take, (whereas a character carrying a weapon they are not proficient in would have to drop the weapon and punch).
Yes I can totally see my WP of Sarenrae maxing strength and athletics (in comparison to proficiencies a skill can be actively pushed to legendary at least) grabbing his fully enchanted, trusty fail and tripping the spawns of Rovagug to hell with each of my 3rd actions because I will probably not be able to reliably hit them with my (mostly ceremonial) scimitar anyway, even on my first attack. /s
Look, I know where you are comming from and you have a point. However personally I do not like roleplay and effectiveness not going hand in hand. And a +4 to +6 to your check result in comparison to an attack is hard to ignore.
It needs Class DC to be able to use CritSpec for Brawling Deity Weapons.They already have it, or at least the equivalent. Clerics using either of the existing doctrines already use their divine spell DC (which would be the same as their Class DC anyways if they had one).Third Doctrine (7th): You gain expert proficiency with your deity’s favored weapon. When you critically succeed at an attack roll using that weapon, you apply the weapon’s critical specialization effect; use your divine spell DC if necessary.
OK thanks for clarifying, I was just going off what I remembered from looking at that issue earlier.
SO merely "having" an effective Class DC to use that CritSpec effect is not the issue... It is that swapping in Spell DC means Cloistered Cleric is flatly better than Warpriest at Brawling Weapon Crits, which seems to go against entire Doctrine concept.
Merely giving WP a scaling Class DC doesn't seem best to fix that, because even if you give them strong progression, Cloistered is probably still fully equal (and without even needing good STR/DEX, as they can use WIS).
I think the swap for Spell DC should be REMOVED, base progression of Class DC (everybody using STR/DEX as it pertains to weapon CritSpec) should be part of Cleric class / Deity "ability", with War Priest possibly getting better Class DC progression by Doctrine.
If War Priest was allowed to gain CritSpec in more than just Deity Weapon (which Cloistered also gets, just later) that would also go some way to distinguishing them and allowing War Priest to viably use Martial Weapons for their full career. Even if War Priests got Martial Weapons scaling to Expert, that would still be behind real martials (after all they do reach Expert with Deific Weapon e.g. Gorum/Greatsword which is considered OK), which doesn't give them great chancs to Crit alot... But if they are intended to be able to viably use more weapons than Cloistered, including CritSpec seems like reasonable part of the package.
All in all, it's not that War Priest has no ways to improve on this chassis, they do... It's just that Cloistered can so easily also do so, at little cost. Just Martial Trained? 1 General Feat. Expert Medium? Surpassed with Champion MCD/Expert Feat, which War Priest would also be inclined to take if they want Expert Heavy and Paladin Feat access. This is the issue to me, and what should be fixed. I think it can be done while maintaining balance between War Priest and Martials.
Plus those pesky creatures resistant/immune to your dieties favorite weapon damage type.
That's why you make sure your deity uses a weapon with versatile. ;)
Plus those pesky creatures resistant/immune to your dieties favorite weapon damage type.That's why you make sure your deity uses a weapon with versatile. ;)
Ah yes, I must have a chat with my deity and ensure they change weapon types so that I can be more effective else I will defect, change my entire beliefs so I can have a deity with a more optimised weapon choice.
This just highlights part of the problem, changing deity to optimise weapon. Really deity choice should be far more about role-playing than mechanics.
I think focus has been on why Trained Martial never advances to Expert.
But AFAICT, neither the base Class nor EITHER Doctrine even advance Simple and Unarmed Attacks to Expert.
The early mini-Errata had something about Simple/Unarmed, but I don't think that covers this...
So even Sorcerors are better (Expert) at range of Simple Weapons and Unarmed than even War Priest, as well as Cloistered.
I think Paizo acknowledged there was more Errata around that subject than the existing mini-Errata covers, and I'm pretty confident this would be included.
If neither Simple or Unarmed scale to Expert, Martial staying at Trained and not scaling to Expert really just seems in the same boat, not clearly a distinct design decision. They just messed up all weapon progression for Cleric besides Deity weapon.
I think that is the #1 obvious thing to Errata, a few other issues could be tweaked and improved, but Expert Martial Weapons seems pretty clear cut.
Plus those pesky creatures resistant/immune to your dieties favorite weapon damage type.That's why you make sure your deity uses a weapon with versatile. ;)Ah yes, I must have a chat with my deity and ensure they change weapon types so that I can be more effective else I will defect, change my entire beliefs so I can have a deity with a more optimised weapon choice.
This just highlights part of the problem, changing deity to optimise weapon. Really deity choice should be far more about role-playing than mechanics.
Desna, Gorum, Iomedae, Norgorber and Pharasma have them so 1 in 5. And I didn't suggest changing deities but it might be something to look at when you pick one: it's all a balance of weapons, domains and alignments that influence your choices.
As to RP vs mechanics, it's all up to the person making the character. It's just is RP if more important to you, don't complain you aren't excited with the weapon as that's integral to the RP you wanted.
But AFAICT, neither the base Class nor EITHER Doctrine even advance Simple and Unarmed Attacks to Expert.
The early mini-Errata had something about Simple/Unarmed, but I don't think that covers this...
^EDIT: The mini-Errata COULD give all Clerics Expert (and CritSpec) in Unarmed Attacks if you think "specific set of weapons" also includes "Set of 1" i.e. 1 Deific Weapon. That logic smells to me, but regardless, no Clerics would get Expert Simple Weapons either which is clearly an error. All in all, I expect that to be fixed and Expert Martial Weapons (and probably CritSpec for Simple and Martial) would probably be part of same Errata, basically all weapon progression except Deific Weapon having been overlooked in editing.
SO merely "having" an effective Class DC to use that CritSpec effect is not the issue... It is that swapping in Spell DC means Cloistered Cleric is flatly better than Warpriest at Brawling Weapon Crits, which seems to go against entire Doctrine concept.
Interestingly, class DC maxes out at master on most martial classes (i.e. Fighter, Barbarian, Champion, Monk, Ranger, Rogue).
Alchemists reach master class DC as well. Druids are stuck at trained.
Bards, Sorcerers, and Wizard doesn't seem to have class DC.
Cloistered Clerics are the odd ones using Legendary specifically for weapon critical hits (and nothing else). Warpriests are more like the other martial classes using master.
On the other hand, the cloistered cleric is much less likely to get a critical hit in the first place, so I don't think anyone is going to be rushing to Cloistered Clerics of Irori for slowing punches.
Merely giving WP a scaling Class DC doesn't seem best to fix that, because even if you give them strong progression, Cloistered is probably still fully equal (and without even needing good STR/DEX, as they can use WIS).
Given you need to get a critical hit first to even use the brawling DC in the first place, it seems to me you'd want STR anyways, to boost your to-hit role as well as damage. The brawling critical effect has always seemed sub-par to me given it requires a roll at all after the critical hit, unlike all the other critical hit effects.
Its such a small part of the game space, I'm not sure it really matters all that much. Its basically just a 1 in 10 chance per critical hit of a cloistered cleric of Irori slowing an enemy versus a Warpriest of Irori not slowing them, at levels 7-11 and 15-20, assuming identical stats. All the other critical hit effects just go off automatically without a class DC check.
As to RP vs mechanics, it's all up to the person making the character. It's just is RP if more important to you, don't complain you aren't excited with the weapon as that's integral to the RP you wanted.
I agree for the most part, but it's still worth talking about since WP ends up welded very heavily to their RP because of these mechanics. A neutral warpriest has, what, four weapons they can choose between?
As to RP vs mechanics, it's all up to the person making the character. It's just is RP if more important to you, don't complain you aren't excited with the weapon as that's integral to the RP you wanted.I agree for the most part, but it's still worth talking about since WP ends up welded very heavily to their RP because of these mechanics. A neutral warpriest has, what, four weapons they can choose between?
The alignment distribution IS an issue but someone focused on RP shouldn't have an issue: from what I understand for RP it's more 'playing a cleric of [x] so that means my alignments can be [y] and my weapon is [z] vs a mechanical view which is 'I'm taking N to avoid alignment damage so I have to pick from these gods and the best weapon is a shortsword so it's this god.'
A quick look is 3 weapons for N: shortsword, staff and dagger...
Alchemists reach master class DC as well. Druids are stuck at trained.
While technically true, Alchemists do not by default actually apply their class DC to anything without taking the 'Powerful Alchemy' feat.
Without that, all of your poisons as well as any bomb effects that trigger a save will use the default (generally lower) DC and your bombs use your weapon proficiency.
I'm actually not aware of any other class that reaches a proficiency level in their class DC that cannot apply it without selecting a feat. Feels bad.
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On the other hand, the cloistered cleric is much less likely to get a critical hit in the first place, so I don't think anyone is going to be rushing to Cloistered Clerics of Irori for slowing punches.
But the problem is, they aren't really, outside of the narrow level band (7-10) where WP has an advantage (20% of levels 1-20). CritSpec now only applies to Deific Weapon (or possibly Unarmed/Brawling if "Set of 1"), where WP and CC are the same for 80% of the game. Obviously CC's *in general* are less likely to maximize attack stats compared to WPs, but this question is more about THOSE CC WHO CHOOSE TO being able to "eat the lunch" of WP so easily or with little ultimate difference. CC's maxing attack stat is actually likely for those with Ranged Deific Weapons, since if they DON'T get Armor they need to max DEX just to try to keep up with AC.
I started thinking about whether CC actually need even Simple weapon proficiency (like Sorcerors), or whether Wizard weapons might be enough. That means an extra General Feat to get Trained Martial, and makes it tougher to get more Expert weapons (no more single Ancestral Feat to "treat X Martial weapons as Simple for proficiency..."). They can still do so, it's just a bit more out of the way, and a bit more opportunity cost.
But then I realized, "why do CC even need Deity weapon proficiency?" People have discussed whether ALL Clerics/Champions are expected to use Deity weapon, and the consensus I've seen (including from Paizo) is that they aren't, it's just an option not meant to "force" specific weapon use... and thematically, it can just be a more symbolic thing that isn't an obligatory tool. OK, as a symbol you don't need proficiency. That helps further distinguish CC/WP, since CC can't just be nearly matching WP in the single Deity weapon. Again especially Ranged weapons are impacted because building to use a Longbow means you are highly likely to use it 99% of the time even with equal Martial proficiency. So I think removing Deific Weapon proficiency from base Class / Deity "ability" would be good (this would also remove CritSpec for anything else that might 'inherit' it). If that was done, I think I would expand Deadly Simplicity to also grant auto-scaling proficiency (and CritSpec) for Deific Weapon. Still allows CC to get nearly-equivalent proficiency, just a bit more opportunity cost... It's just that right now CC can so easily get BOTH equal/better armor AND nearly equivalent weapon proficiency without major build diversions. That just doesn't seem legit. /shrug
The warpriest in my party has been happy to have martial weapon proficiency - while his greatsword is his first and truest love, he likes being able to pull out whatever random other weapon he feels like at the moment.
The warpriest in my party has been happy to have martial weapon proficiency - while his greatsword is his first and truest love, he likes being able to pull out whatever random other weapon he feels like at the moment.
I feel like this might be easy to miss if one only looks at the numbers.
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The warpriest in my party has been happy to have martial weapon proficiency - while his greatsword is his first and truest love, he likes being able to pull out whatever random other weapon he feels like at the moment.I feel like this might be easy to miss if one only looks at the numbers.
This is because you still need to be able to (reliably) hit with whatever random other weapon you are using and numbers indicate that you don't, at least once you leave the single digit level area and you are not fighting mooks exclusively.
For levels 3 to 6 to-hit values for favorite and other weapons are identical (low) so I understand that people like the diversity the weapon proficiencies grant within those level ranges. I already made a joke about this in our group, i.e. that I will shelf my deities scimitar for exactly 4 levels and use a better weapon for metagaming reasons just because I can.
Warpriests with martial weapon training are (as far as I can tell) the most straightforward way towards making a Hellknight Signifer in 2nd edition, depending on the choice of Order (requirements: proficiency with heavy armor and your order's favored weapon of the which several are martial).