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That proposed solution just means that everyone will always use advanced weapons if physically possible. Let's not pretend general feats are any blockade whatsoever to that.
This has been a thing talked about many, many times.
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Flagged to move to homebrew and houserules forum
I'd probably keep the base feat as is and add a second feat that ties it in. That would put it in line of value with the ancestral weapon feats and I feel General Feats are about as valuable as Ancestry Feats.
Yeah, this is my inclination too. One general feat for scaling proficiency seems too cheap, but two general feats (the later gated to level 13-15*) seems about right. Hopefully we’ll see a feat like this in the APG.
(*The Ancestral Echoing rune, which effectively does the same thing, was made a level 15 rune. Presumably they made the level higher than the level of the corresponding ancestry feat (level 13) to make the ancestry feat still feel special. That suggests that a general feat doing this might be pushed to level 15 for a similar reason.)
I like the way that it currently functions, as of right now it means that you can pick the feat up to get training in Martial Weapons effectively being able to pick up most any weapon and use it to some degree of proficiency.
I would be fine with a second feat that allowed you to gain scaling weapon proficiency with a single weapon. Probably make it a level 15 feat that upgrades a weapon proficiency up to your highest weapon proficiency.
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I did a bit of mathing / graphs, and no, currently the general feats for proficiencies do not work.
In their simplest use, they translate to "you gain +0.5 damage. If you are Expert, you suffer a -1 to damage. If you are Master, you suffer a -3 to damage.".
A feat might not have reasons to scale and improve, but it *never* should cause you to purchase a penalty. This is 3.0 Toughness all over again, and Pathfinder had set out to remove such things for a good reason.
However, the changes necessary are pretty far-reaching, and yes, they do alter game balance slightly. See my own thread for graphics and notes.
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I agree that they don't work once you get expert in your normal proficiencies.
I suspect APG archetypes will fix this, and that the general armor and weapon training feats will be mostly about getting pre-requisites.
Otherwise I'd probably add a Level 11 General feat that allows scaling proficiency, make it Uncommon so nothing odd or unexpected could happen, then go from there. It will only every come up if some player is using different weapons, in such cases they usually have something specific in mind, and I'm usually okay with it.
I don't know that level is a great pre-requisite for the improved proficiency feat. Something more like 'you are trained with a weapon/armor, and have a higher proficiency granted by your class, increase your proficiency with that weapon/armor to that granted by your class'.
That way it can be picked up by martials shortly after getting their expert increase, instead of them having to wait until 11 or more.
A lot of people see the caster with the martial weapon as the problem with the general training feats, but the martial with an advanced weapon/a different armor type is one too.
As it is I agree that the weapon proficiency feat is near worthless without an option to have the damage scale. I think people basically only take it if they need to be proficient with weapon for a dedication.
But I also agree that combining the damage bonus into that single feat is too cheap.
I agree with the suggestion of making it a second feat that becomes available around level 13.
I strongly advise waiting until we see the advanced player's guide before trying to figure out what are the expectations for how archetypes and general feats will interact with proficiency. Like we already know there is an archer archetype, and from the description, it probably will give you scaling proficiency with bows, but only up to Expert/your general weapon proficiencies.
The key to remember about "Expert+" proficiency is that they are supposed to represent a specialized training to adopt, which probably fits much better under archetype than general feat.
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If there is generic weapon adept dedication that gets you proficiency and scaling damage at the cost of two class feats that would probably be a good balance point.
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I've thought about this issue a lot myself, isthisnametaken. I feel there are 2 possible solutions:
option 1) Any weapons or armor bought with a feat are added to you class weapons and armor and advance along with those for free. This would include General feats, ancestry feats, etc. It would invalidate several later ancestry feats that increase your proficiency, but they can just take an earlier feat that they did not take instead. And this would allow General feat weapons and armor to scale along with your own class's proficiency levels.
option 2) Create new General feats that work similar to the Ancestry feats to scale the General Trained weapons and armors:
Armor Expertise (Level 11 General feat)(Requirement: You are an Expert or higher in your Class Armor): Armor bought with the Armor Proficiency feat increase in rank to Expert of higher along with your class armor ranks.
Weapon Expertise (Level 11 General feat)(Requirement: You are an Expert or higher in your Class Weapons): Weapons bought with the Weapon Proficiency feat increase in rank to Expert or higher along with your class weapon ranks.
There are benefits and drawbacks to each option. One is simply adding to the rules and giving an option to raise your previously bought General feats by spending still more General feats. The other option just adds the feat bought weapons and armor to your Class weapons and armor and they then scale automatically with the rest of them.
So far, I went with option 2, but I'm reconsidering whether or not that was the right choice. Option 1 would make several of the feat choices in both Ancestry and General a bit more powerful, but I agree that if you spent a feat buying the weapon or armor it shouldn't become an inferior choice during your heroic career. So there should at least be another feat option to increase the rank, just as there is for Ancestral weapons, which is what Paizo did with the Ancestral weapons, so I created a General feat to do something similar for Gen. weapons and armors.
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I strongly advise waiting until we see the advanced player's guide before trying to figure out what are the expectations for how archetypes and general feats will interact with proficiency. Like we already know there is an archer archetype, and from the description, it probably will give you scaling proficiency with bows, but only up to Expert/your general weapon proficiencies.
The key to remember about "Expert+" proficiency is that they are supposed to represent a specialized training to adopt, which probably fits much better under archetype than general feat.
I can agree on the proficiencies higher than Expert, but I disagree that Expert proficiency itself represents specialized, above-and-beyond training. Maybe it was meant to, but that's not what the game has made it. Wizards and Sorcerers are not known for their specialized training in even the few weapons they would use; that is not a part of their general archetype at all, and yet, they get guaranteed Expert proficiency in their class-granted weapons at some point. And if it's not for the in-universe specialized training that they're supposed to represent, then it must be for the math fix. Reminds me of the Expertise feats from 4E's PHB2.
I stated my position on this matter several times already, but I have accepted to wait for what is coming with archetypes before I get tangled in a thread like this again.
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Mathematically speaking another feat would probably be a good idea (because of the investment cost-to-benefit), but it fits poorly. Martials who buy into advanced would have to stick with a subpar option between levels 5 and 6, if not 5 and 11, and the armour upgrades are even weirder (You can spend three general feats as a wizard and still have a higher AC when not wearing armour between levels 13-15).
As is, fitting in a lv11 armour or weapon ‘scaling’ feat would work out as well as Canny Acumen - you have a range of levels where the feat works, and a range where it doesn’t, except now it’s two feats rather than one.
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I stated my position on this matter several times already, but I have accepted to wait for what is coming with archetypes before I get tangled in a thread like this again.
But if the APG archetype feats are the best way to gain weapon and armor proficiencies, then the core book feats are just trap options. Unless the APG also introduces something similar to what I wrote above, general feats that allow the basic general armor and weapons training feats to eventually scale as well. And I do hope they do that, rather than forcing players to retrain old general feat choices (and class skills, if the skill boosting archetypes use up class feats instead of general feats) in exchange for the multiclass archetypes instead.
I stated my position on this matter several times already, but I have accepted to wait for what is coming with archetypes before I get tangled in a thread like this again.But if the APG archetype feats are the best way to gain weapon and armor proficiencies, then the core book feats are just trap options. Unless the APG also introduces something similar to what I wrote above, general feats that allow the basic general armor and weapons training feats to eventually scale as well. And I do hope they do that, rather than forcing players to retrain old general feat choices (and class skills, if the skill boosting archetypes use up class feats instead of general feats) in exchange for the multiclass archetypes instead.
The idea is that some archetypes would require training in a certain weapon or weapon class instead of grant it. So, the general feat would help a character meet the requirement to take the archetype, which would take care of making the character more skilled with that weapon since there.
I hope that I can be convinced.
I stated my position on this matter several times already, but I have accepted to wait for what is coming with archetypes before I get tangled in a thread like this again.But if the APG archetype feats are the best way to gain weapon and armor proficiencies, then the core book feats are just trap options. Unless the APG also introduces something similar to what I wrote above, general feats that allow the basic general armor and weapons training feats to eventually scale as well. And I do hope they do that, rather than forcing players to retrain old general feat choices (and class skills, if the skill boosting archetypes use up class feats instead of general feats) in exchange for the multiclass archetypes instead.The idea is that some archetypes would require training in a certain weapon or weapon class instead of grant it. So, the general feat would help a character meet the requirement to take the archetype, which would take care of making the character more skilled with that weapon since there.
I hope that I can be convinced.
If I’m understanding correctly, then something pretty much like this?
Prerequisites : trained in sawtooth sabers, deity is Achaekek, lawful evil alignment, member of the Red Mantis assassins; Access You are from Mediogalti Island.
You have learned how to stalk your foes and slay them with a sawtooth sabre. You become trained in Stealth and Assassin Lore; if you were already trained, you become an expert instead. Whenever your proficiency in any weapon increases to expert or beyond, you also gain that new proficiency with sawtooth sabers.
I'm hoping for general-feat-only archetypes of some kind that could get things to your class's proficiency level.
Except general feats aren’t normally available at creation, so you still need to work up to them... but dedications can line up earlier than general feats anyways.
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Isonlynegativefeedbackuseful?
...
Ok couldn't resist.
You become trained in all simple weapons. If you were already trained in all simple weapons, you become trained in all martial weapons. If you were already trained in all martial weapons, you become trained in one advanced weapon of your choice
Special: You can select this feat more than once. Each time you do, you become trained in additional weapons as appropriate, following the above progression.
Thus:
Class / Desired Maximum Proficiency / # of Times WP is taken
Wizard / Advanced Weapon / 6 times
Wizard / Martial Weapons / 4 times
Wizard / Simple Weapons / 2 times
Cleric or Rogue / Advanced Weapon / 4 times
Cleric or Rogue / Martial Weapon / 2 times
Fighter / Advanced Weapon / 1 time
Cheers.