Nervous About Starting PF2


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


A brief history of my gaming... I've been running games since AD&D 2nd edition in the late 1980s, but I really honed my skills during 3rd edition and Pathfinder 1e. I even ran D&D 4e events at my local game store, and managed to make a good time.
I dropped out of Pathfinder after 5e came out, and I've run many 5e games. My groups seem to find 5e a little complex - which I think is strange, since I come from games that are even more complex than that.
To try something new, my group has briefly tried 4e and Savage Worlds. Neither worked to hold together a long term campaign. The group desperately wants a long term campaign, but some players are tired of the blandness of 5e. But they don't want the complexity of 4e, the requirement of online character builders, etc.
Do you think PF2 is a good "in between" step of complexity? Have you noticed any issues of using it for long term play?
I'm nervous because I feel like I have one false start remaining ahead of me before my group moves on to greener pastures. I desperately want the next game to knock it out of the park. Is PF2 up to that challenge?


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I'm a bit confused. You say your group finds 5e "a little complex" but some are tired of 5e's blandness. You've got an issue there.

PF2 is more complex than 5e, by a good margin. It's easy to learn, but its complexity isn't trivial.

I think you need to get a grasp on what the group wants.

Sovereign Court

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Harles wrote:

A brief history of my gaming... I've been running games since AD&D 2nd edition in the late 1980s, but I really honed my skills during 3rd edition and Pathfinder 1e. I even ran D&D 4e events at my local game store, and managed to make a good time.

I dropped out of Pathfinder after 5e came out, and I've run many 5e games. My groups seem to find 5e a little complex - which I think is strange, since I come from games that are even more complex than that.
To try something new, my group has briefly tried 4e and Savage Worlds. Neither worked to hold together a long term campaign. The group desperately wants a long term campaign, but some players are tired of the blandness of 5e. But they don't want the complexity of 4e, the requirement of online character builders, etc.
Do you think PF2 is a good "in between" step of complexity? Have you noticed any issues of using it for long term play?
I'm nervous because I feel like I have one false start remaining ahead of me before my group moves on to greener pastures. I desperately want the next game to knock it out of the park. Is PF2 up to that challenge?

It's just my personal opinion, but I think 5e, 4e, and Savage Worlds are all much easier to play than Pathfinder 2e.

My group tried Savage Worlds and liked it, but we returned eventually to Pathfinder 1e because the players had more experience with it and D&D 3.5. I ran a few 4e games too, and while it went ok, we didn't really care for the sameness of all the characters. My group never even tried 5e after the poor experience with 4e, despite 5e being a much improved game IMHO.

If your party's problem is with the sameness of characters, I think Pathfinder 2e solves most of that. If their problem is rules complexity and how "this rule works with that feat/feature", the PF2e's complexity might be too much for them.

But there is really only 1 way to truly be sure. I would recommend a single game with no ongoing commitment and see how it goes. Get everyone to create a 2e character (either separately or all together) and then run a sample combat (maybe the party vs a group of goblins and their wolf mounts attacking a town or something like that. There is even a sample downloadable fight against an ogre here on the Paizo site you could use for the trial). If the players like the game after creating characters and the sample battle(s), then go ahead and try a full module or campaign.


I have found PF2e easier to teach than 5e to brand new to RPG players... But that is a bit of an illusion, it is much more complex it just does a better job of making its rules clearer and having core rules stay consistent.

Now, that aside.

I would probably try out a lighter system with them. May I recommend Numenera 2 or one of the other cypher system games?
It will put a heck of a lot less strain on you but allow you to run something different if that is what you are wanting (Numenera 2 helps fix a number of choice based issues that the original had imo).

Other than that you could make a few pregens up without gender, race or names. Let the players make those choices and choose their ancestry feat + heritage and take them through a few mechanics each session.

Seriously though, I have had people who thought 5e was too complex say how easy they found PF2e. It baffles the mind but it seems it does resonate with certain people.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really want to play or run cypher system but hard to recruit new players for obscure system in my experience :'D


Some hints, as someone who has introduced it to a number of groups since August.

Make characters for/with them. Don't worry too much about the skill feats in Session 0/1, unless it's really important, or like battle medicine.

Tell people they can do three things a turn, then interpret those as actions, then explain what the actions are.

How you USE your actions in PF2 can be endlessly complex and strategic, but doing your turn to some basic level is actually very easy. You really can learn by playing.

Also try to be good about asking what everyone has in their hands during exploration, and how they are going about the place. It really makes live easy for you, you will have an idea who needs to draw weapons, what skills to use for initiative, what order people will be standing in.

e.g. "you established the were walking peacefully with the last wagon, all keeping a look out, but with no weapons drawn."

Everyone rolls Perception for Initiative. Round 1 a character wants to fight an ambushing goblin. Remind them they need to draw their sword first, then can walk over and swing. Then explain that's one action, interact, to draw sword. One action to move 25ft. One action to Strike, they roll dice, easy peasy.


TL;DR It's 90% about getting used to how great the three action system is organically, then it's all plain sailing!


We tried Numenera, and unfortunately it was a no-go for our group. It lasted around 2 sessions. [Ended up being too simple, not enough options.] Strangely, it was I who ended up being the most vocal critic of the system.

We're a strange mix. A couple of us are veterans who like complexity. A couple of them are casual/new players. Trying to find a good balance is challenging.


Harles wrote:

We tried Numenera, and unfortunately it was a no-go for our group. It lasted around 2 sessions. [Ended up being too simple, not enough options.] Strangely, it was I who ended up being the most vocal critic of the system.

We're a strange mix. A couple of us are veterans who like complexity. A couple of them are casual/new players. Trying to find a good balance is challenging.

I would say pf2 might be good then. It is very hard to make a unfunctional character for the casuals, and it mostly layers play complexity as it goes (a level 1 fighter might have to learn 2 options past the basics to play but by the time they hit 20 they'll have lots more.)

Fir the vets,well look at the fish discussion going on, there is a lot of meat to the choices and you can approach ideas from a few different angles, and you can eek out the sweet performance enhancing combinations without leaving the casuals in the dust.


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CorvusMask wrote:
I really want to play or run cypher system but hard to recruit new players for obscure system in my experience :'D

I love Cypher System.

Sovereign Court

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One of my GMs got tired of running Pathfinder so he switched the game to Fate Core set in the Scarred Lands setting. Fate Core doesn't haver a long list of variable abilities, but the players create their own using character aspects. The system itself is pretty easy to use, and the core rules are even available online for free.


To the OP, another couple of systems I often recommend are Conan 2d20 (although with a cap of no TN being over 13 at game start and using shadows of the past rules, unless you like high power games). It plays WAYYYYYY better than it reads.

Another would be Symbaroum.

Both are level free systems and might offer something different.

Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:


I love Cypher System.

It has to be run differently to the standard D&D system to really shine, but yeah it has certainly found a place on my shelves these past few years.


A lot hinges on what the parts of the game are that are tripping up your new players and boring your veterans. Is it character creation? Round by round tactical options? Ability to actualize character and genre concepts? P2 might be the answer, but my guess is it would be luck along with other factors like your growth as a group that makes the difference.


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

To the OP, another couple of systems I often recommend are Conan 2d20 (although with a cap of no TN being over 13 at game start and using shadows of the past rules, unless you like high power games). It plays WAYYYYYY better than it reads.

Another would be Symbaroum.

Both are level free systems and might offer something different.

Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:


I love Cypher System.

It has to be run differently to the standard D&D system to really shine, but yeah it has certainly found a place on my shelves these past few years.

Conan has come up a few times. I'm just fearful that it will devolve into ridiculous Ahnuld impersonations. My group just can't get over themselves. Haha.

Symbaroum has come up as a contender as something we're interested in.


It’s honestly not a a Conan game unless someone does an Ahnuld, James Earl Jones or Mako impression.


Sir Antony wrote:
A lot hinges on what the parts of the game are that are tripping up your new players and boring your veterans. Is it character creation? Round by round tactical options? Ability to actualize character and genre concepts? P2 might be the answer, but my guess is it would be luck along with other factors like your growth as a group that makes the difference.

My fiancée is bored by the lack of tactical options in 5e, and she describes every combat as a slog with the enemies being "bags of hit points." Options are very limited at lower levels, and you never really feel cool. [She really enjoyed 4E and Savage Rifts.]

The other consistent player (who likes to try out a variety of systems) has a general burnout of d20-based systems [which would also include PF2, but he's wanting to try it anyway, because at least it's new.] He doesn't like rolling a die, adding bonuses, and comparing it to a DC. He isn't big on class and level-based games, instead preferring more customized character building (like selecting edges/hindrances/powers/skills without regard to class) and incremental improvements (like getting small bonuses after each session).

The other players who may be coming are more casual players and are new to the hobby. I've DMed a 5e campaign with one of them - and she had a little bit of trouble learning the ropes, especially when her wizard got to high level.


Yeah, given that mix of needs, I’d be tempted to look elsewhere. Perhaps something like Genesys? It breaks away from the d20 number-crunching and leveling that your one vet wants, the opportunity system gives your fiancée convenient options beyond hp attrition, and there’s not quite so many things to keep track of that will overwhelm your casual players. If your group doesn’t get hung up on the weird dice, it might work.

Designer

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I am obviously biased towards Pathfinder 2nd Edition and think it might scratch the itch for a group that wants more options but is relatively easy to learn considering the incredible amount of option variety (some groups have been saying it's easier to learn than 5e, though I'll settle for being about the same to learn with lots of depth and options). And hey, you can tell your group you talked to one of the creators of the game!

However, as Sir Antony and others have said, with the mix of desires and some thoughts about ditching d20 overall, it could be a great time to check out something very different. FATE is one that's pretty simple core mechanic and narrative, but has the ability to get a bit crunchier with options than some other narrative games, for instance. It depends on what theme interests your group, from games focused on horror like Dread (or the new 10 Candles that I hear is intense but Jason has us avoiding spoilers so he can run it some day) to high octane god-killing and tons of d6s with Mythender, and everything in between.


Mark Seifter wrote:

I am obviously biased towards Pathfinder 2nd Edition and think it might scratch the itch for a group that wants more options but is relatively easy to learn considering the incredible amount of option variety (some groups have been saying it's easier to learn than 5e, though I'll settle for being about the same to learn with lots of depth and options). And hey, you can tell your group you talked to one of the creators of the game!

However, as Sir Antony and others have said, with the mix of desires and some thoughts about ditching d20 overall, it could be a great time to check out something very different. FATE is one that's pretty simple core mechanic and narrative, but has the ability to get a bit crunchier with options than some other narrative games, for instance. It depends on what theme interests your group, from games focused on horror like Dread (or the new 10 Candles that I hear is intense but Jason has us avoiding spoilers so he can run it some day) to high octane god-killing and tons of d6s with Mythender, and everything in between.

I'm concerned that rules-lite and more unique systems might make it more difficult to "knock it out of the park" and have a really successful campaign. We haven't had a long term campaign in nearly 2 years, and many players are getting frustrated and moving on to other gaming groups. And for me, it's really frustrating because I basically created an entire campaign world, mapped numerous cities, and put more time into this campaign than anything I've done in years. And it didn't last 3 months.


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So we've seen a lot about what your players want but it seems you've got quite an established world you would like to run. Could you tell us more about its particulars? Not every system can represent every setting and even if everyone is playing their favourite game that game could still be wrong for the story.

Mechanics can either push towards certain types of story or pull away from them and even if a player cant articulate it ludonarrative dissonance can make it difficult to get immersed in either the rp or g side of things.


Harles wrote:
I'm concerned that rules-lite and more unique systems might make it more difficult to "knock it out of the park" and have a really successful campaign. We haven't had a long term campaign in nearly 2 years, and many players are getting frustrated and moving on to other gaming groups. And for me, it's really frustrating because I basically created an entire campaign world, mapped numerous cities, and put more time into this campaign than anything I've done in years. And it didn't last 3 months.

I would encourage you to look up Open Legend. It's a classless generic RPG system, so it can fit most settings but has more meat on the bone than Fate for example, but never reaches PF1 or GURPS levels of complexity. I think it might fit you and your group well.

Otherwise, I would also recommend when worldbuilding to start small, especially if you are not sure that the campaign will last because often starting with a village is good enough to run the beginning of a campaign. If you have already established a world or a continent then consider only presenting the most relevant parts of it to newcomers because in my experience new players often get overwhelmed when they have to dig into something big and massive without knowing where to start. So doing a little parsing for them often goes a long way.


Malk_Content wrote:

So we've seen a lot about what your players want but it seems you've got quite an established world you would like to run. Could you tell us more about its particulars? Not every system can represent every setting and even if everyone is playing their favourite game that game could still be wrong for the story.

Mechanics can either push towards certain types of story or pull away from them and even if a player cant articulate it ludonarrative dissonance can make it difficult to get immersed in either the rp or g side of things.

Part of the reason I invested so much time in developing a large campaign setting was because the players told me they wanted international political intrigue - so this involved knowing the power centers, having maps of capital cities, etc.

It was a nautical campaign. The tieflings and aasimar were at odds, with the humans deciding if they would side with the tieflings (who had dark magic pacts) or the aasimar (who had let their blind devotion to law create a culture of colonization and enslavement). The party became involved when the aasimar kidnapped a prince of the human monarchy - but maybe it was to protect him against the machinations of the tieflings?

The party was starting to discover that the primary disagreement between the two powers was that the tieflings' magical pact was tied to an interdimensional entity called The Chaos, which was growing and spreading in physical form into the lands of the aasimar.

Meanwhile the Dwarven Holds, the Elven Forest Kingdom of Alceyon, and the Halfling River Nation trading empire all tried to preserve neutrality.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think the only way to know for sure is to do some one-shots in various systems and see what people like. Sounds like they all want different things, so finding a system everyone can buy in on is a pretty important step. There’s no reason the campaign you’ve described couldn’t work with pf2 and some home brewing/third party products. It actually plays very fast and smooth, complexity aside. The only way to know though is to try it. A no-commitment one-shot is my best recommendation.


Depending on how long 'long term' is to your group PF2 may fit the bill. Based off the standard of a full 6 book adventure path it takes about a year to more or less get to max level and be done with the campaign. At the end of the day PF2 is a well done product with a lot of support and high production values so as long as your group is up for it I'd give it a go. Grab the core and monster book as pdf, write up a one shot to test things out and see what you all think.

If you want something that lasts longer than that I kinda feel a point buy system of some sort may work better as you don't really 'max out' and are left with no more character change or growth stats wise. RP wise obviously there is not such limit. A good robust point buy system should have enough options out there to keep adding to and molding character stats for quite some time. My longest game was actually Exalted. Between point buy stats, powers, and a plethora of possible gear we deep dived that game for a little over two years. Earthdawn is also pretty deep into an unique mix of point buy and level based advancement and gear that is well suited for long running campaigns.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Harles wrote:
I'm concerned that rules-lite and more unique systems might make it more difficult to "knock it out of the park" and have a really successful campaign.

Your mileage will vary of course, but you can get a lot out of those unique systems. My group dove into FFG’s Star Wars system on a lark because it was odd and different. We then played for three years, picked up Genesys when it launched and have tooled around with it on and off.

You’re going to get out of the more unique systems as much as you’re willing to put in. That said, they aren’t for everyone.


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Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
It’s honestly not a a Conan game unless someone does an Ahnuld, James Earl Jones or Mako impression.

To be fair you've forgotten the inclusions of key phrases like "My Mitra!" "Crom!" or the inclusion of a seductive vampire or witch, a giant snake or a tribe of Killer Apes that try to murder the group.

I know the few times I ran one-off stories with the older incarnation of Conan I managed all of those and more in "The Chalice of LIfe" and "The Tomb of the Ancestor" adventures.

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