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I don't know if I'm just not cut out for running Adventure Paths or what, but I'm getting completely overwhelmed by this one. First, I want to give a few factors.
Specific to this adventure, we're in Chapter Two of "Lost Mammoth Valley." There's a big map with 50+ locations. There are 8 factions operating within the areas. My group is pretty slow moving (partly due to the restraints of shorter sessions being played online) - so at our current pace, it could take us over a year to get through this map. I could cut some of the locations, but I have no idea which are the "important" areas. I don't know, for example, if there's a vitally important magic item located down the side passage of cave being guarded by mutated otters (well actually, I did find that one and retconned it). Is it important that I let certain NPCs live? Is it vital the party have connections with all the groups? Are they going to miss important gear? What about story elements? What even is the story at this point? Are we expecting the group to explore a dangerous valley while they're still being pursued by an enemy tribe? ![]()
Xenagog wrote:
I can only play PF2 on a VTT. There is zero interest in my small town in playing anything else but the Big Game. So I have to find games where I can - online. At this stage it seems pointless for me to purchase physical products when I know it's unlikely they'll ever be used at an actual table. ![]()
Yeah. It's every company for itself. It's probably too late for Paizo or any other company to come out with a "lingua franca," and it would've been great to have seen Paizo again step out as a leader in the game industry like they did with Pathfinder 1e.
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pres man wrote:
3pps: My barbarian, whose Strength is higher than his Intelligence... ![]()
I downloaded all my PDFs from Paizo and have them safely stored on physical media. I'm debating getting the official PDFs of things I normally access on Archives of Nethys [Dark Archive, etc.] - but that would get really pricey over the course of just a few days. (I wouldn't mind if I had a couple months to spread out the purchases.) ![]()
I'm sorry that anyone is taking my request as entitlement. I appreciate the work FryGuy and other fan developers have done to bring the PF2 experience to Foundry VTT.
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Guntermench wrote: You can download older versions from your purchased licenses tab on foundryvtt.com. Install a second copy with a compatible version, export the stuff you want then import it on your working version. Kind of a pain, but eh. None of this has ever been Paizo's responsibility to begin with. I run through the Forge, which I don't think it gives me that option. I will examine it as a possibility though. Thanks for the suggestion. And I understand it's not Paizo's responsibility. But it is within their power to do it, potentially with little effort. It could save a good number of fans some considerable effort. Guntermench wrote: I don't really agree with it being a nightmare though. I guess if you think working with Foundry is an ordeal I can see it but how you think that is beyond me. At least now with V10 you can just upload the PDF directly into a journal entry, it just won't make all the scenes for you. I can read the PDF from my laptop as I run a game. Simply having it in a journal entry really has no benefit to me. What is difficult about it?
Guntermench wrote: lolwut. PF2e is probably the most supported game on Foundry in terms of automation and free content. And it's all fan-created, and I've been very appreciative of it and have praised it. So what I'd want is from them to either help support the free content OR give us the option to pay for the content. Right now on Foundry I can access the Beginner Box (which we've already played), Abomination Vaults (which we've already played), and two other adventures (which have middling reviews). Previously, I had access to basically the entire library through my PDF purchases. That means no Strength of Thousands or any other older APs, no PFS content. For me, that's not enough representation of Paizo's adventure offerings to keep Foundry as a viable VTT for the system. ![]()
I apologize if this is the wrong forum to share these frustrations. I know that Paizo is not to blame for my situation, but I'm hoping some others on here have solutions (or can at least allow me the space to vent as a GM). I've been running PF2 regularly on Foundry VTT. I'm currently nearing the final chapter of Book 1 of Quest for the Frozen Flame. It was during last night's session that I discovered the PDF to Foundry importer is no longer supported for the current version (10) of Foundry. The upgrade happened automatically to all of my games on Foundry, so I can no longer use the feature to upload PDFs. Once the players get to the end of Book 1, that's it. Either the campaign ends or I begin the arduous process of adding every map, trying to get walls and dynamic lighting working correctly, trying to align the grid so it doesn't look like sloppy trash, hoping to find the right opponents in the bestiary (which no longer has the imported artwork so they are generic, goofy silhouettes that kills the mood). Last night I discovered that what was the best way to play the best modern RPG has turned into a nightmare that is going to turn into a heck of a lot of work and still be a substandard experience for my players. Quest of the Frozen Flame is available for Roll20, which doesn't still doesn't look serviceable as a VTT (I have used it in the past for Age of Ashes and Abomination Vaults). It has zero automation, no tools, no access to the SRD content, no character creation, etc. What it has is maps and art work - which I can no longer get on Foundry. If I want to stay with Foundry, I have very limited official offerings from Paizo. I can't get an official download of the campaign we've started. Who knows if there's any hope that past APs are going to be made available? And is it going to be in time for my group (doubtful)? Unless I can come up with another solution, I'm not going to stick with Foundry. If I don't stick with Foundry, I don't stick with PF2. If I did have a request of Paizo - and I realize it's a longshot request from an overworked GM - buy the rights to the PDF to Foundry Importer from FryGuy. Keep it updated until you can get your past APs (and PFS adventures) converted to Foundry officially (like you have with Blood Lords and the others). This would be great for your fans who are running other campaigns on Foundry who are like me - facing the end of their campaigns. Otherwise, I think we'll see Pathfinder 2's usefulness in Foundry drop. If you want to keep us playing on Foundry and Society active online, we need more content. ![]()
Yes, I am running the game.
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Yikes. I was just reading this thread and might need to back off my plans to run it for my group - which is wanting more than half the sessions to be dynamic, exciting action-packed combat.
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Apparently, there is a real desire to play PF2. I posted availability to run an AP online and got 10 interested players. In one day. Obviously this is too many for me to GM effectively, and I wish I had more free time to start an additional game to accommodate everyone.
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I'm about to undertake yet another attempt at PF2 on Foundry with my wife and best friend (side note - I'll be looking for players soon). Even though a big part of me would like to write my own adventure, I think getting a new group together would benefit from the name recognition of an AP. I've had a bad run of APs in PF2, and I'm trying to find that "Goldilocks AP." Age of Ashes - too difficult
What are currently considered the best APs? I'm looking for something with better levels of challenges than Age of Ashes, more variety than Abomination Vaults, and something that might appeal to bringing in new players to PF2. Or would you recommend stringing together Society Adventures (but not running for Society credit)? OR perhaps converting a previous edition AP (Age of Worms?) Thanks in advance. I really want to finally run a successful PF2 game (after three failed attempts with different groups). ![]()
CorvusMask wrote: Trip usually helps whole party, especially characters unable to go to flank, but one of its biggest use is honestly making enemies waste one action to stand up from prone. But your character is wasting an action to attempt to do something they have a good chance at failing? I just don't see how it's a good return on investment.![]()
keftiu wrote: Was there any debuffing of the enemy - Trips and Shoves, Demoralize, spells and the like? In PF2, using all three actions to attack on your turn is generally considered sub-optimal, and the game expects that negating your opponent's advantages is just as important as hitting them. I don't understand this at all. Trips, shoves, etc. are all attacks, correct? They all contribute to (and suffer from) the MAP, right? How is it going to help you at all to do this? Every time I've tried it, it's a completely wasted effort.![]()
Helvellyn wrote:
In my case, it should all be done automatically on Foundry VTT. ![]()
Dancing Wind wrote:
I'm not doing that. Paizo is. (Or at least, they were in the earlier APs that I have tried.) To shoehorn all the XP into the AP chapters, they seem to cram in a lot of Severe encounters just to get the characters to a specific level, when it would be simpler (and better serve the story) to make Milestone XP the default. By doing this they can have encounters that fit the story & don't risk slaughtering the party on an unimportant encounter that isn't telegraphed in the module.![]()
Dargath wrote:
For my most recent group who had a TPK, the dichotomy between the lethality of the system and the expectation that a party would be able to experience the story of a 20 level Adventure Path was too strong. It killed all the enjoyment of the AP. They got the mentality of "I guess this is just going to be a series of difficult combat encounters, rinse and repeat." It's really a shame too. The system mostly works for me - better than 5e. But the encounters should probably be 2 levels easier to reinforce that the story is the most important part of the game, and then the "filler" encounters should be minimized in an AP. You don't need to meticulously count XP between chapters when you're doing a story-based game. ![]()
SaveVersus wrote:
My players all hate OSR and what they call "expendable characters" - so I'll need to go in another direction. Since we play on VTT and I display dice rolls - I'll need to conceal those if I'm going to fudge.Back in the day (running 2nd edition AD&D) I'd make all die rolls behind the screen and keep a running tally on all characters' HP just to make sure I didn't kill anybody. There were much fewer deaths, as you might imagine, but I knew the game wasn't actually a game: it was my friends sitting around and listening to me tell a story (and they had little control over it). I have trouble believing that I'm so much better tactically than the playtesters and designers of PF2. I'm regularly dropping parties (across three different groups) with what are considered standard encounters (even if some are Severe they aren't beyond what a party are expected to handle). ![]()
NielsenE wrote: If the Killer GM title has been following you through multiple editions, I think you have your answer; and if you don't want it that title, you need to look at retraining your GM habits. It's mostly a thing in d20-based systems (3rd-5th edition D&D, PF 1 & 2). In other systems it's not as bad. For example in 2nd edition AD&D - never had a party wipe, and only a very rare character death at all. Never had a character death in PBtA games (Dungeon World or Monster of the Week) or FFG's Star Wars. Character deaths are expected in Call of Cthulhu - but I don't think I had them more frequently than expected. The main reason I bring it up here is that TPKs happen in my PF2 games with an almost ridiculous frequency. I've had about the same number of TPKs in 5e D&D, but that is spread across nearly a decade of GMing.![]()
NielsenE wrote: The other thing that I'm a little worried about is it often sounds like the OP is looking for a silver-bullet/missed rule that will magically fix things. They've been answering questions on hard facts, but have avoided responding to any of the replies that talk about the softer/subjective GMing skills. I guess I want to start with the rules and make sure I'm running everything correctly before looking at retraining three decades of GMing habits - though some of that might be in order (especially since I've had this Killer GM title following me since 3rd edition D&D - when the focus of the game turned very tactical and the rules became very precise). Some of the advice I've been getting has been kind of diametrically opposed, so it's hard to know what to do.![]()
Paulyhedron wrote: I've read this thread through twice now and part of me is wondering if this isn't a troll post? I've been in a tpk (Abomination Vaults), but only the one in my entire gaming life (2004). So I am not sure. Hey there. Assuring you this isn't a troll post. I can give you a few examples of PF2 TPKs I've had, as well as encounters that were so difficult the party just gave up. Alas, no full details because some of them were a couple years ago now. Some of these were admittedly due to my learning the system - especially one of the Age of Ashes TPKs.Putting in spoiler tags... Adventure Path TPKs and Give-Ups: Age of Ashes: Book 1, Greater Barghest [TPK]; Age of Ashes: Book 2, Dragons in the Jungle [TPK]; Age of Ashes: Book 2, Monkey cultists and dragon door hazard [TPK]; Abomination Vaults: Book 1, Wood Golem [gave up]; Abomination Vaults: Book 1, Worm that Walks spellcaster [run away - half TPK]; Extinction Curse: Book 1, Demon Worms [TPK].
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Captain Morgan wrote:
Yes, I moved the initiative of the Champion after they dropped. ![]()
AlastarOG wrote:
I chose the system (after I got buy-in from the players). I presented a few Adventure Paths for a vote, with my recommendation being Strength of Thousands - because it had good reviews and hopefully more balanced encounters. They were against Strength of Thousands because a few of the players absolutely did not want to run with the free archetypes and wanted no magic characters.They were against Abomination Vaults because they didn't want a dungeon crawl. They were against Agents of Edgewatch because it was similar in theme to a previous campaign we'd done in another system where they served on a town watch. They were against Agents of Alkenstar because it wasn't a "full campaign" and didn't like the technology aspects. So they chose Extinction Curse over the others. In hindsight, I should've either written my own adventure or toned down the fights appropriately. However, I did play through simulated sample fights solo throughout the first book just to see if it was as deadly as Age of Ashes (which went badly for a previous group). I didn't have any major issues, even with basic tactics for the party. The party for whom I was GMing Extinction Curse failed. I can blame a combination of having a slightly underpowered party (because some may have missed an ability boost, didn't equip their magic items, made characters without some of the better attack cantrips, etc.) and using sometimes actively bad tactics (instead of merely "not optimal" tactics - like I did in my example). ![]()
Candlejake wrote:
The party never actually got close enough to the open graves to be pushed in. Otherwise the creatures would have to drag them to the area and push them in. Or just stand there and take ranged attacks, since the creatures had no ranged attacks of their own. ![]()
Well, last night's discussion included a ranked voting of where to go next. No one chose sticking with Pathfinder 2e as their top vote.
Even if it were possible to convince them otherwise by changing my GM style, it seemed they had already made their decisions. So I'll take the advice in this thread and apply it to future games I run. It does kinda stink that my attempt to run PFS at the local game store fell apart after one game due to no interest and this game has also collapsed - all in about 2 weeks. ![]()
Kasoh wrote:
Yeah, the group voted for the harder AP when presented with the choices. They have been hesitant for me to apply Weak templates to tough monsters. They don't want me fudging die rolls. But they, rightly, get frustrated when there are TPKs. So I don't know. Maybe it's not the system for them. Maybe I need to write my own adventures for a while. But this may all be for nothing - I'm meeting with them in 10 minutes to see if they even want to continue playing at all.![]()
breithauptclan wrote:
Haha. All the dice rolls are handled on Foundry, so I can't even change the results. I don't have any friends still playing PF2 - probably because I've been an unintentionally bad ambassador. ![]()
Captain Morgan wrote:
I've run AV for another group, and while we didn't have any TPKs, that group thought it was too difficult for their preferences. This group was turned off by the concept of a "dungeon crawl." They voted to play EC, even after I told them it would border on being more difficult than other Adventure Paths.![]()
The Raven Black wrote: Did the opponent use an action to Seek (or Medicine RK) to check that the Champion had been revived before attacking ? No. Do you think they should have in these circumstances? The creature is adjacent to the healed character. The creature is at least moderately intelligent (has an average Intelligence score and +1 in Wisdom). And then also has the ability called "recoil from wasted opportunities" which means that it takes 1d6 mental damage anytime a dying creature is healed because a "good meal" is taken away.I think it seemed perfectly logical and fitting of the theme of the creature. I wouldn't have used this strategy automatically for just any creature. ![]()
breithauptclan wrote:
I understand. I try to use really basic tactics for most creatures. Bestial monsters typically move and attack the nearest opponent. They may switch their attacks if they are hit recently by another target. Unless they are especially ravenous they don't attack unconscious/dying characters. Usually I don't do trips or demoralize for less intelligent foes. It's just straight up move and then multi-attack. When running intelligent foes - unless they have some additional information - they operate under the assumption that no one is a caster unless that character casts a spell first. They don't assume characters have reactions/attacks of opportunity unless they see it first. I do flank with lower intelligent creatures and attack prone (or otherwise compromised) characters. I don't think that's beyond the expected behavior of creatures (like wolves) that are pack hunters. I don't purposefully spread out to avoid area effect spells with unintelligent creatures or intelligent opponents who aren't expecting those kind of attacks. ![]()
WatersLethe wrote: OP has a bright future in professional gambling My dad was actually a frequent gambler - mostly Blackjack and horses. Too bad he never GMed. Haha. The frequency of my TPKs seems that there must be something else going on besides my luck. Every 12 hours or so of gameplay to have a TPK seems well beyond the impact of dice rolls. ![]()
We're going to meet tonight - one week after the TPK. In my previous correspondence with the group via email, I tried to offer a re-do of the encounter and suggested applying the Weak template or letting them try the fight at 3rd level. I also tried a few basic suggestions (stay mobile, think of something to do other than a 3rd attack, retreat sooner if it's going badly, etc.). All of these were met with what I'd describe as hostility from about half the group.
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breithauptclan wrote:
The Champion had a steel shield, and I recommended it. Ultimately, the player decided to save his reaction to use the Glimpse of Redemption reaction to try to save the cleric. He's also very nervous about the shield being destroyed, despite my efforts to encourage him to use the ability. ![]()
breithauptclan wrote:
It's possible I had the creatures flanking the champion at that point - I'm not sure. The subsequent critical bite was because the champion was prone and hadn't raised her shield - so that one was easier to pull off.![]()
breithauptclan wrote:
Yeah, I don't recall the sorcerer using that one (though I did in my simulation with their characters). Honestly, that player is the one with the most PF1 experience, and I think that counts against him in some cases. He frequently forgets things like focus spells. ![]()
NielsenE wrote:
I used individual initiative for both the creatures - they just happened to beat all the characters. ![]()
MaxAstro wrote:
I use milestone leveling. They are at the level that is recommended by the adventure. The party was at full health. The sorcerer was down to one 1st level spell and the cleric was down to two 1st level spells and one use of Heal from the healing font.![]()
Encounter from Book 1 of the Extinction Curse: The party had gotten some initial intel that something was amiss in the Goldenlaws church - unnatural stench coming from it. They entered the graveyard and had a very brief combat with a quasit and two pugwampis in the mausoleum (listed as a Low 2 encounter). They did spend more resources than you'd expect, but still entered the following encounter with full hp, focus points, and Hero Points.
I'm not going to remember every detail since this was a week ago - but I think you'll get the point. So the specific encounter was with 2 vermleks CR 3 creatures (listed as a Severe 2 encounter). The group saw the two creatures disguised as grave diggers. The sorcerer, acting as the party's face, approached with the champion nearby. The cleric hung back a bit with the rogue stealthing between the gravestones. The vermleks tried to discourage the party from getting closer, but the party knew something was up. They attempted knowledge checks and perception checks, but couldn't place what was amiss. The party started to draw weapons, the champion readied her shield. Seeing the party approaching intently, the vermeks sprang to attack. They handedly won initiative. One drew his sword and spent two actions to close the gap with the champion. The other discarded his human disguise to reveal the demon worm beneath and slithered near the champion. The cleric stepped behind the champion and put Magic Weapon on her shield boss. The champion took Everstand stance, raised shield, and attacked. The sorcerer backed away and blasted the two creatures with burning hands - but I think they made their saves (in any case didn't take a lot of damage). The rogue moved into a flanking position to get sneak attacks. The vermeks were already in base contact with the champion who was presenting herself as the main target. One got a critical on a longsword attack and a regular hit. The other got a critical on a bite (2d8+3 x2) and the champion dropped to Dying 2 immediately. After dropping the champion with one hit, the creature pursued the cleric, who was next in line. The cleric did a two action heal on the champion, rolled 1, so restored her to 9 hp. Meanwhile the rogue is trying to whittle away and do some damage, staying put instead of moving to present himself as a target so the cleric isn't completely overwhelmed. The sorcerer continues to deal small damage to the creatures with cantrips. The champion is next to one of the vermeks - which took some mental damage when the meal was snatched away. It clearly notices she's still alive and bites her, scoring another critical. This drops her to Dying 3 (since she was Wounded 1 from the last round). The party is officially out of magical healing. The rogue tries to stab the creatures, but isn't able to do enough - they are reduced to about 10 and 8 hp from 55. The cleric fails a battle medicine roll on the champion. He falls on the next round, then the rogue falls. The sorcerer takes an action to roll medicine to see if he has any idea how damaged the creatures are. He can tell neither is likely to fall to his cantrips. He decides to run for it, but one of the creatures can still reach him and drops him with a critical hit. So that's the quick version of the TPK. ![]()
NielsenE wrote:
The rogue has a +1 sickle taken from a previous fight but doesn't use it because the player prefers the rapier. Despite numerous suggestions from me to have the rune transferred to the rapier, he hasn't done it. So he has the rune, just doesn't use it.![]()
I'm posting abbreviated character details. Let me know if you need more information. (Encounter set-up will follow shortly.) 2nd level gnome sorcerer. 24 hp. AC 15. Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +8.
2nd level lizardfolk cleric. 28 hp. AC 18. Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +9.
2nd level elf rogue. 24 hp. AC 19. Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +6.
2nd level half elf redemption champion. 34 hp. AC 19 (21 with shield raised). Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +6.
Anyways, that's the party - hopefully it's enough to look over until I get the encounter and the play-by-play posted. ![]()
Lanathar wrote:
Hey, sorry about that. I will be posting more information soon (hopefully this morning). I gotta figure out how to get the information off the VTT and in a readable format - while also not posting spoilers for the AP in question. The ulterior motive I have is - why am I a killer GM and how do I keep from doing it? This being said, I played through the same encounter twice on Foundry just to test it out. One play through was with the iconics, levelled up to 2nd level (but without magic gear) and the other was a carbon copy of the same party. I handedly defeated the combat both times with minimal damage to the characters. So there's either something very off in their tactics that I'm missing, or it all comes down to bad luck with the die rolls. Anyways, I'm posting these character details shortly. Then I'll try to set up the encounter and tell you what happened (as best as I can remember). ![]()
We did have a champion with lay on hands and several characters trained in Medicine - so healing outside of combat has been the norm. The cleric was down some healing spells from a previous combat. Basically, no one was down HP at the start of the encounter. Party configuration was a Redemption Champion, Cleric, Rogue, and Sorcerer.
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