help with dealing with untouchable monk(unchained) in campaign .


Advice

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I have never and probably never will roll a random encounter table, because I use milestone leveling and don't need to waste table time on them. I also delete swarms from APs that I know are unavoidable (tick swarms...)

My players do not find swarms fun to fight. Nobody really does. I don't find them fun to fight. I do not use swarms, nor does my party expect to fight swarms. They could probably handle a swarm, having a kineticist. Doesn't mean I should throw a swarm at them. That time could be spent on an encounter that's actually interesting and doesn't require a specific magic item in order to not take 20 turns and waste a bunch of time.


A swarm on its own is something that you can usually back off and not fight. If there's a room filled with swarms that you have to go through, maybe you can prepare and fight them, maybe you can figure out a way to get through without fighting them, maybe you don't actually have to go thru that room. If they're being directed by something else, that something else is the real enemy.

There's no need to be terrified of them and they're no real solution to overpowered characters.


I'm beginning to regret mentioning swarms.

>.>


hm.. me as well.


This thread really got off track and swar... well. It got a lot of posts off track.


Yep. Whoops.


TheGreatWot wrote:
I'm beginning to regret mentioning swarms.

I think I'll start another thread in Advice.

Here.


Cellion wrote:
pre-errata Crane Wing (which was nerfed for a reason)

Yup. A broken archetype and PFS GMs. :)


Azten wrote:
Cellion wrote:
pre-errata Crane Wing (which was nerfed for a reason)
Yup. A broken archetype and PFS GMs. :)

Which archetype? And I agree, under normal situations the pre errata was perfectly fine. I just think some DMs hated being told "no" when their big scary monsters crit folk.

As it stands the errated feats are nigh useless.


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GM_Rorek wrote:
Azten wrote:
Cellion wrote:
pre-errata Crane Wing (which was nerfed for a reason)
Yup. A broken archetype and PFS GMs. :)
Which archetype?

Master of Many Styles, which's bonus feats ignored all prereqs. Not actually problematic for a single class character, it was famously (ab)used for dipping. Now, someone who understands balancing would have simply altered the MoMS bonus feats, but why use finesse if you have a sledgehammer at hand? Of course, they changed MoMS afterwards, anyway, because *surprise*, Crane Wing wasn't the actual problem.


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No. The problem is people that would rather tell others the "one way" to build a character over and over again while repeating the mantra of "because it's the best and therefore only option" until paizo says "well that isnt the intent" and nerfs it into the ground.

Youd think the community would learn from this and yet every major nerf that goes too far comes directly from this repeated pattern.

But.. nope.


Well, don't have to worry about that anymore Cavall...at least for PF1.


For what it's worth, characters I build expect swarms, and prepare for them. At first level. By third or so,they prepare for regenerating things, like trolls. At higher levels, they expect flyers to be an issue. It's just the way things are,so you prepare for them if you're going adventuring.

I try to give fair warning for appropriate things when I run the game. I have no clue why players won't prepare for things they're likely to encounter, but I've surely seen it...and whining that it's unfair, even after warnings, seems to be a common enough solution.

Fortunately, most of my players do seem to learn.


Meirril wrote:
Well, don't have to worry about that anymore Cavall...at least for PF1.

Heh both fair and ominous, Meirril.

Grand Lodge

EldonGuyre wrote:

For what it's worth, characters I build expect swarms, and prepare for them. At first level. By third or so,they prepare for regenerating things, like trolls. At higher levels, they expect flyers to be an issue. It's just the way things are,so you prepare for them if you're going adventuring.

I try to give fair warning for appropriate things when I run the game. I have no clue why players won't prepare for things they're likely to encounter, but I've surely seen it...and whining that it's unfair, even after warnings, seems to be a common enough solution.

Fortunately, most of my players do seem to learn.

In any case, the swarms aren't amongst the worst enemies to face. They're even easily doable with some prep. Those saying they can't or protest against these, this is disingenious ... Single enemies with multiple resistances and immunities (and possibly built to counter PC strategies, and no these don't always involve GM tuning) are way more frustrating.


I came here to hear the tale of a GM that shot themself in the foot, and got swamped in a swarm discussion - that has been moved to another thread - and is still being discussed.

Any news from hom the GM handled it and if it worked? Asking for a friend.


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Well, as others pointed out, some of the feat choices don't seem legitimate, and the monk is benefiting from various house-rules in his favor.

That said, high mobility, strong defenses, but poor damage output seems pretty much par for the course on a well built mid level monk.

And again, as was pointed out, this is especially useful vs. a small number of humanoid enemies.

Increasing the number of enemies decreases the usefulness of trip and attacks of opportunity. Especially enemies with range, as another stated. A bunch of crossbowmen at least enough HP to survive the initial trip+attacks of opportunities can be handy.

Swarms, incorporeal creatures, flying creatures, ranged creatures, creatures with a lot of legs or that can't be tripped, creatures that do area damage, creatures that can create difficult terrain or other field control effects (that monk isn't going to be able to full-round attack if it needs to cross a Stonecall first), creatures with reach, creatures with attacks that target other things than AC (gaze attacks, for example).

But in the end, remember that you don't really need to kill the monk. If he's hard to hit, it's not the end of the world, he's sacrificing other things for this. And if you just stack creatures with crazy high attack bonuses, the rest of the party will get auto-hit.

Also terrain. Very high mobility is great is a big flat empty terrain. Less so in crowded narrow corridors, or spaces presenting many hazards and varying altitudes. The monk may still be better than most at avoiding hazards or climbing, but if you've got some balconies overlooking on the main fighting stage, and enemies on there shooting down, you'll need your archers and casters to deal with them, not the monk. The goal is not to shut down the monk, though, but to make sure other characters also play an important role.

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