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Seriously, this thread is derailed enough. Take it up in another thread if you want to keep this conversation going.
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Among my friends there is a Pathfinder 1e group I'm involved in and a few are involved in a DnD 5e game or two as well. There is no current interest in switching anything over to 2e. When we finish our current AP we'll either play another AP we haven't yet played like Giant Slayer, a Starfinder game, or some other game entirely. My personal resistance to 2e is it suffers from the same bad design decision that both DnD4 and and DnD5 took. Under the d20 System and derived games, the attitude was here's the mechanics, make the character you want to play. Under PF2/DnD4/DnD5 the decision was made to be here's the characters we, the designers, want you to play, you're not allowed to customize them; be happy with that. The decision to remove multiclassing (feat classing wasn't multiclassing in DnD4, and it still isn't multiclassing in PF2), class locking most mechanics, and designers start saying nonsense like "niche-protection" fully cemented that opinion.
I am in love with DEX to damage. Yet after perusing the many posts about it in PF2 both playtest and end result, I came to understand and accept that it was restricted to Rogue because giving it to any other martial in the CRB would wreak havok with the whole balance of the game where every +1 in combat matters.
It is not nonsense on the designers' part, but just the fact that they understand the maths of the game far better than any of us does.
I have never heard of "Warhorn" before and I'd say I'm quite entrenched in this hobby. What kind of platform is it and who is it targetted at?I have just clicked on warhorn and PF2 is about 80% of PF1 and more than starfinder
Not knowing much about warhorn I don’t know how much that shows!
Warhorn is a free online service that helps gamers organize and sign up for gaming events of all sizes. Warhorn is also a great way to find games in your area.
Warhorn is a free online service that helps gamers organize and sign up for gaming events of all sizes. Warhorn is also a great way to find games in your area.
It would be interesting to see if the uptick in P2E is matched by a drop in P2E, or if P2E is drawing in players from elsewhere.
Certainly the number of reviews and that Warhorn statistic are great indicators that 2e is performing quite well - possibly even better than Starfinder, and Starfinder was certainly a critical success.
I imagine there's another portion of the playerbase you are missing though, Kasoh - people who liked 4e and didn't like 5e. That's not super common, but they do exist. I've even seen them on the forums here.
While 2e avoids the worst mistakes of 4e, there are enough similarities there that it seems to be appealing to people who liked that system and wanted to see it done better.
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Certainly the number of reviews and that Warhorn statistic are great indicators that 2e is performing quite well - possibly even better than Starfinder, and Starfinder was certainly a critical success.
I imagine there's another portion of the playerbase you are missing though, Kasoh - people who liked 4e and didn't like 5e. That's not super common, but they do exist. I've even seen them on the forums here.
While 2e avoids the worst mistakes of 4e, there are enough similarities there that it seems to be appealing to people who liked that system and wanted to see it done better.
Even though I come most recently from 5e, this is actually me, 4e was my first system, and many of the appealing elements of 2e were things that I'd missed from then.
I believe most game stores are hostile to paizo due to pdf policy (and potentially other factors). So sadly I don’t think there are going to be many game store clerks helping with that
As an example the Forbidden Planet in Southampton U.K. does not stock a single pathfinder item. There was a brief spell when it had war for the crown and return of the Runelords books but I guess they didn’t sell well. And apparently that was driven by a particular manager (who might be gone now)
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Interesting. I haven't had that experience with stores, but I note that D&D gets primary shelf space because its a mover, then you see the Pathfinder books, then there's Shadowrun, Vampire, and Warhammer, a pile of one off system books which are fun to page through. Most gaming stores I go to end having most of their shelf space dedicated to Warhammer though, because Warhammer keeps game stores in business.I believe most game stores are hostile to paizo due to pdf policy (and potentially other factors). So sadly I don’t think there are going to be many game store clerks helping with that
As an example the Forbidden Planet in Southampton U.K. does not stock a single pathfinder item. There was a brief spell when it had war for the crown and return of the Runelords books but I guess they didn’t sell well. And apparently that was driven by a particular manager (who might be gone now)
Yeah, I think that problem is somewhat overblown. It's not like other RPGs don't offer PDFs, with one glaring exception obviously. I bet most stores are more favourable towards WotC mostly because of MtG and not because of D&D. At this point, you don't even have to go to a gaming store anymore to buy a system but many large bookstores even have them on the shelves, so I doubt that it is a primary income source for gaming stores anyway.
I also wanted to add another potential pool for PF2 to draw upon: Those who have left PF1 in general for whatever reason. That's where I'm coming from.
I believe most game stores are hostile to paizo due to pdf policy (and potentially other factors). So sadly I don’t think there are going to be many game store clerks helping with that
As an example the Forbidden Planet in Southampton U.K. does not stock a single pathfinder item. There was a brief spell when it had war for the crown and return of the Runelords books but I guess they didn’t sell well. And apparently that was driven by a particular manager (who might be gone now)
On the contrary, I’m here in the states and we have about three shops in my city. All three are very receptive and whenever I ask about it, I usually get the response (not exaggerating) “we can barely keep it on the shelves since it goes so fast.
I wouldn’t consider myself regular enough to get recognized, so I have no reason to think they’re just floating my boat, but alas anecdotal.
Both the FLGS and the LGS in my area carry Pathfinder to varying degrees; I haven't checked recently to see if they have 2e in (and in the case of the non-F LGS I'm certainly not going to).
Perhaps it is a UK thing. There is the added shipping barrier I think. D&D being a big mover means it will be brought in more readily
Back in 2012 my FLGS owner was actively pushing every paizo book he could. Shouting praise from the rooftops and evangelising it to the 'nth degree :)
Mind you, he is the same man who gleefully backs the Bones kickstarters unlike the other LGS who took it as a personal betrayal that the existed.
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Certainly the number of reviews and that Warhorn statistic are great indicators that 2e is performing quite well - possibly even better than Starfinder, and Starfinder was certainly a critical success.
I imagine there's another portion of the playerbase you are missing though, Kasoh - people who liked 4e and didn't like 5e. That's not super common, but they do exist. I've even seen them on the forums here.
While 2e avoids the worst mistakes of 4e, there are enough similarities there that it seems to be appealing to people who liked that system and wanted to see it done better.
Critical success is a bit suspect when I've personally yet to see a mainstream big name RPG that didn't get good reviews. The only one digging into the subject finds is Shadowrun 6e, which got middling reviews...and has also united close to every shadowrun fan against it.
On a PbP note (Yes I am aware people in this thread have said PF 2e is not suited for PbP. Ah well) Pathfinder 1e is still the main game on MW. The most PF 2e games that have had advertisement at the same time has been two, both times at the release of playtest and the core book. I think one additional time during the APG playtest release? Outside that the occasional one and long stretches of none available. PF typically ranges from 4-8, dnd 5e 4-10. We typically have more World of Darkness or Shadowrun games advertising than PF 2e.
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There were also at least two people claiming (one of them the same as above ) that because the Pathfinder subreddit has far more 1E activity it follows that 2E isn’t popular. They chose to ignore or downplay the dedicated sub for 2E
So what have others seen?
Is the game really floundering already? Or is it too early to tell?
Or is this just a few vocal people who are upset about 1E being dropped and are shouting the loudest about it?
I've seen a lot of "is game X successful" discussions in my time. I've talking about 4e, PF1, 43-Essentials, 5e, and now PF2. And my conclusion is that it's generally pretty easy to tell.
You generally just have to look at who is arguing against the evidence. Are people presenting evidence of success and being argued against or are people presenting evidence of failure and being argued against.The fact that the discussion exists, that is isn't being shouted down or considered a joke, that and isn't being overwhelmed by positive discussions is probably a big sign that PF2 is either having troubles or, more likely, just not being a smash success.
Being in the middle and not being a "wild success" or "horrible failure" is a weird place, but seems probable. PF2 was never going to hit the highs of PF1: the market and gamers' expectations are some completely different. And while there are many more tabletop gamers than ever before, most are still new to 5e and not ready to branch out into different systems yet.
And, really, PF2 is selling better than almost any other RPG in the market. The question is really "is it selling well enough to maintain Paizo's overhead?" as Paizo is a fairly big company with lots of staff. It's smaller than it used to be, but is it still big enough to justify three to four big hardcovers each year... plus monthly APs?
PF2 was always going to have difficulties. No edition change converts 100% of the audience. The best you can hope for is a high percentage of change over and a decent number of new players. But Paizo was always going to have difficulty pulling 5e fans away from that system, and a not small percentage of PF1e fans wound be happier not converting.
Paizo also shot themselves in the foot by releasing as much 1e content as they did for as long as they did. The more unplayed products gamers had, the more reluctant they'll be to convert.
Really, this is a problem D&D has had before. It seems like every other edition struggles. 2e and 4e were not nearly as successful as 1e, 3e, and 5e. People tend to use what they have, keep playing, and skip editions.
Paizo might just have to hope they can keep going until they can release a 3rd Edition.
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PF2 was always going to have difficulties. No edition change converts 100% of the audience. The best you can hope for is a high percentage of change over and a decent number of new players. But Paizo was always going to have difficulty pulling 5e fans away from that system, and a not small percentage of PF1e fans wound be happier not converting.
Paizo also shot themselves in the foot by releasing as much 1e content as they did for as long as they did. The more unplayed products gamers had, the more reluctant they'll be to convert.Really, this is a problem D&D has had before. It seems like every other edition struggles. 2e and 4e were not nearly as successful as 1e, 3e, and 5e. People tend to use what they have, keep playing, and skip editions.
Paizo might just have to hope they can keep going until they can release a 3rd Edition.
In defense of AD&D2e it was essentially AD&D1e with minimal changes and released primarily to counter the whole devil panic thing. There really were few reasons to switch if you had AD&D1e books at the time (it was a lot harder to tell what the changes were without errata documents and websites outlining the changes as well).
I sincerely doubt that any RPG will come close to 5e levels of success, it would take being tied to another form of runaway media to become that popular.
As for PF2e, you are right, it faces an uphill battle. There is a lot of choice and the argument of "why switch and learn a complex system" still hangs over the game.
PF2e is easy to learn for players, but it LOOKS daunting with the giant and more expensive book.
For first time GMs it is a bear of a system to tackle and I cannot see many picking it up for their first foray. And existing GMs, well there are only so many of us who happily read and learn systems as a hobby.
I maintain that it should have launched with a 5e style starter box. That is to say a level 1-5 simple adventure with pregens and limited level progression choices designed to teach GMing and play to new GMs and players. The question of "where do I start" isn't easily answered at the moment but frequently asked.
Giving someone a 650page CRB isn't a good way to excite someone imo.
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The fact that the discussion exists, that is isn't being shouted down or considered a joke, that and isn't being overwhelmed by positive discussions is probably a big sign that PF2 is either having troubles or, more likely, just not being a smash success.
...
Paizo might just have to hope they can keep going until they can release a 3rd Edition.
???
Paizo sold more 2e CRBs at GenCon than any product they've taken to GenCon ever.
The Lost Omens World Guide sold out before release date and had to get an immediate reprinting.
I'm sure that's not D&D 5e volume, but I see no indications that 2e isn't meeting Paizo's expectations for sales.
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The fact that the discussion exists, that is isn't being shouted down or considered a joke, that and isn't being overwhelmed by positive discussions is probably a big sign that PF2 is either having troubles or, more likely, just not being a smash success.
...
Paizo might just have to hope they can keep going until they can release a 3rd Edition.
???
Paizo sold more 2e CRBs at GenCon than any product they've taken to GenCon ever.
The Lost Omens World Guide sold out before release date and had to get an immediate reprinting.
I'm sure that's not D&D 5e volume, but I see no indications that 2e isn't meeting Paizo's expectations for sales.
This is what I mean. There are questions of sales and popularity, concerns raised on multiple platforms and an undercurrent of dissatisfaction. But when you bring it up people seem to get defensive and argue that things are doing fine. I could get similar links about how well 4e was selling or the WotC forums back in 2009...
Because if the game was going great, all the chatter would be about how awesome the game is and the negativity and concerns would be drownded out.GenCon sales are great and all, but like 0.25% of the gaming populace attends. (And most don’t play Pathfinder.) Being big at a GenCon is like going Platinum in Canada: it’s nice, but doesn’t equate with lasting international success.
Yeah, the PF2 Core Rulebook sold well. But the 4e D&D PHB initially outsold the 3e books over the same period. But you need to look at how well it sells a month later, and three months, and six months, and a year. If people are playing the game or it’s just something that sits on their shelf.
Initial sales are great for paying off the year or two of development costs, but sustained sales keep the lights on and the workers paid.
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The fact that the discussion exists, that is isn't being shouted down or considered a joke, that and isn't being overwhelmed by positive discussions is probably a big sign that PF2 is either having troubles or, more likely, just not being a smash success.
...
Paizo might just have to hope they can keep going until they can release a 3rd Edition.
???
Paizo sold more 2e CRBs at GenCon than any product they've taken to GenCon ever.
The Lost Omens World Guide sold out before release date and had to get an immediate reprinting.
I'm sure that's not D&D 5e volume, but I see no indications that 2e isn't meeting Paizo's expectations for sales.
This is what I mean. There are questions of sales and popularity, concerns raised on multiple platforms and an undercurrent of dissatisfaction. But when you bring it up people seem to get defensive and argue that things are doing fine. I could get similar links about how well 4e was selling or the WotC forums back in 2009...
Because if the game was going great, all the chatter would be about how awesome the game is and the negativity and concerns would be drownded out.
I don't really think this is true. After all, I don't think I've seen any system complained about more than 5e.
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???
Paizo sold more 2e CRBs at GenCon than any product they've taken to GenCon ever.
The Lost Omens World Guide sold out before release date and had to get an immediate reprinting.
I'm sure that's not D&D 5e volume, but I see no indications that 2e isn't meeting Paizo's expectations for sales.
This is what I mean. There are questions of sales and popularity, concerns raised on multiple platforms and an undercurrent of dissatisfaction. But when you bring it up people seem to get defensive and argue that things are doing fine. I could get similar links about how well 4e was selling or the WotC forums back in 2009...
Because if the game was going great, all the chatter would be about how awesome the game is and the negativity and concerns would be drownded out.GenCon sales are great and all, but like 0.25% of the gaming populace attends. (And most don’t play Pathfinder.) Being big at a GenCon is like going Platinum in Canada: it’s nice, but doesn’t equate with lasting international success.
Yeah, the PF2 Core Rulebook sold well. But the 4e D&D PHB initially outsold the 3e books over the same period. But you need to look at how well it sells a month later, and three months, and six months, and a year. If people are playing the game or it’s just something that sits on their shelf.
Initial sales are great for paying off the year or two of development costs, but sustained sales keep the lights on and the workers paid.
So by your own metric, Joana presented evidence of success and then you argued against, which means...?
idk, man, it feels like you are deploying sort of a "trap argument", whereby no matter what anyone says you can take the position that 2e isn't doing well.
If you have actual evidence that 2e isn't doing well, that would be interesting to see, but if you are just here to say "no amount of evidence is proof", that's... not very productive?
I haven't heard much about it but all the fandoms are pretty busy right now.
I imagine once they pull out a Kingmaker-like Adventure Path for 2e (or Starfinder, for that matter) you'll get more talk about 2e. Big old interesting things to draw attention for a bit of time, and Kingmaker's popular enough to do it. Some of the people who come to look will stay, others will find something else. Keep doing it and you've got a fandom.
Numbers don't matter, people will believe what they want, and online you'll always hear more people complaining than saying they like it. Give it some time to stretch and grow.
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X: PF2 isn't doing well, Paizo must try to survive until PF3.
Y: Man, do you have any remotely concrete proof for that?
X: Data is meaningless, everything is subjective, war is peace, onions are carrots.
*yawns*
Meanwhile, 264 ratings, PF2 CRB is getting closer to half the amount of ratings PF1 CRB got over 10 years.
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I haven't heard much about it but all the fandoms are pretty busy right now.
I imagine once they pull out a Kingmaker-like Adventure Path for 2e (or Starfinder, for that matter) you'll get more talk about 2e. Big old interesting things to draw attention for a bit of time, and Kingmaker's popular enough to do it. Some of the people who come to look will stay, others will find something else. Keep doing it and you've got a fandom.
Numbers don't matter, people will believe what they want, and online you'll always hear more people complaining than saying they like it. Give it some time to stretch and grow.
Well, isn't Kingmaker being released for PF2 next year? The crowd-funding campaign for that one was very successful if I remember correctly and the PC game might also have attracted some new people.
As for Jester David, it's literally impossible to argue for, against or with his position, considering how he has set up his argument. So I guess it's best to leave it alone instead of harping on faulty logic.
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Popped into say he way laying a trap, only to get ninja'd by a whole ninja army.
Huh what? Did I miss something?
<tentatively vanishes>
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To me it'd be like trying to play D&D variants as a class-free game or as a slow-progression, low-magic game. It's probably possible, but it's going to be terribly frustrating.
You just described HarnMaster, which is probably my favorite fantasy roleplaying game.
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Successful Troll is proud of fellow troll brother.
CEO
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Since quotes from Lisa Stevens seem important in this thread, Pathfinder 2nd edition is doing great and I am really happy with the way it is selling. And just for the record, Paizo isn't smaller, it is larger than it has ever been. And we are growing even more in the coming months.
I have been involved with quite a few edition change in my 35+ years in this industry. It always takes time for existing customers to take on the new edition. Always. It has nothing to do with how good a new edition is and everything to do with ongoing campaigns that need to be finished up.
And some people will never change, which is also cool. It is great when you are able to give people their perfect game on the first go around and also give them a lifetime of content to play with that game. Actually quite proud that we seem to have done that for quite a few people.
But make no mistake, Pathfinder 2 is doing really well and I expect will continue to grow over the next five years or so. So many new customers in the marketplace that it is the most fertile ground to launch a new edition on in the history of our industry.
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Since quotes from Lisa Stevens seem important in this thread, Pathfinder 2nd edition is doing great and I am really happy with the way it is selling. And just for the record, Paizo isn't smaller, it is larger than it has ever been. And we are growing even more in the coming months.
I have been involved with quite a few edition change in my 35+ years in this industry. It always takes time for existing customers to take on the new edition. Always. It has nothing to do with how good a new edition is and everything to do with ongoing campaigns that need to be finished up.
And some people will never change, which is also cool. It is great when you are able to give people their perfect game on the first go around and also give them a lifetime of content to play with that game. Actually quite proud that we seem to have done that for quite a few people.
But make no mistake, Pathfinder 2 is doing really well and I expect will continue to grow over the next five years or so. So many new customers in the marketplace that it is the most fertile ground to launch a new edition on in the history of our industry.
Awesome news! Thank you for everything you've done for the industry and the hobby! WE LOVE YOU AND ALL YOU DO!
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Are numbers available anywhere? Traditionally the RPG industry has been shy about publishing specific sales numbers. The closest I always found was ICv2, which just had a ranking of 1-5 for sales for a quarter and is often erroneously held up as an example of what's the greatest game at the moment. Like the Star Wars RPG pops up there whenever there's a Star Wars movie on the horizon.
However well it's doing, Paizo does seem like it could do more of a social media push, sponsor some/more live play of games and stuff. Those seem to be incredibly popular right now.