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Post-errata, there seems to be a general consensus that the Alchemist is still in need of attention. Paizo has clarified that there are still problems they're aware of that they haven't yet decided how to address, so in the mean time let's see if we can try to agree on exactly what the Alchemist's problems are.
This isn't necessarily meant to be a thread for proposing changes, but more for pointing out and discussing specific ways people feel the class falls short. Please be polite to both your fellow posters and the developers. We all have the same goal here, and that's making PF2 the best game it can be. Also, where possible, discuss your actual play experiences with the class.
I've been playing an Alchemist in a low-level PF2 game for a few months now, and I've definitely run into some obstacles.
I'm playing an Elven Mutagenist, I picked the race with the hopes I could balance out the Mutagenist's low AC through high Dex and the Shield cantrip. With a bit of play, I'm beginning to think focusing on HP over AC may have been the better choice (and if anyone has had experience going that route I'd be eager to hear about it). Either way, survivability in melee (at least when using Bestial Mutagen) feels well below where it ought to be, in both the HP and AC department.
It's pretty common I'll feel a bit starved for actions in combat. If you keep your Mutagen in hand (or pre-buff) you can avoid your first turn being eaten up, but using situational alchemical items like elixirs of life always take at least 2 actions. The low hp of the class definitely warrants the occasional use of in combat healing, but elixirs of life are well below what a 2-action Heal can give, and cost twice the actions of Lay on Hands (though once you get Lesser Elixirs the healing is about the same)
The Alchemist is obligated to take certain feats just to keep using their base class features properly. Many of these feats feel more like they simply remove restrictions rather than open up new options.
Revivifying Mutagen seems like it's necessary at higher levels so you can actually end a long-duration Mutagen before taking a different one, otherwise you have to worry about suffering from multiple drawbacks simultaneously.*
Powerful Alchemy is necessary to keep Thunderstones and Tanglefoot bags scaling properly, otherwise there are a number of dead levels where their DC is far too low to matter, but you don't yet have access to the next tier. Unfortunately Powerful Alchemy only applies to items made through Quick Alchemy, meaning it's only worth making Tanglefoot Bags or Thunderstones during daily preparation at certain levels.
Calculated Splash isn't strictly a tax, but it is one of the rare examples of a class feat that gives flat number increases without any new options, which is something PF2 generally seems to avoid.
Enduring Alchemy seems necessary to get proper use out of Alchemical Alacrity, as there's no way to use 3 items yourself with only 2 actions. You can rely on allies to grab and use the items themselves, but that means you're asking them to use two of their three actions to apply your buffs to themselves, or all three of their actions if they have to move to be adjacent. No other buffing class requires their fellow party members to sacrifice a turn like that.
*As a side note, the rules are not particularly clear on what actually happens when you drink a second mutagen while benefiting from one already. The Mutagenist's Greater Field Discovery is very explicit, but the general rules only mention that Mutagens are polymorph effects, and should thus counteract each other, which raises more questions about how to handle the required counteract checks
I haven't played an Alchemist, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I feel as though Powerful Alchemy should have been a level 1 class feature and apply to both Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy from the get go. This immediately gives the alchemist the ability to keep up on the dc end of things at the very least.
I keep looking to see if bombers get master proficiency in bombs thinking I must have missed it somewhere. But no, they are stuck with very poor accuracy despite being a subclass that needs to hit.
I am on board with alchemy being weaker, but more plentiful, than spells, but they definitely need a little love to make them on par.
I see a few problems with the Alchemist and I agree with some of your points, but I tend to disagree about others.
Alchemist is a support class, and thus has low survivability. Going melee with an Alchemist is as bad as an idea than going melee with any caster. Mutagenists are specialized in Mutagens, not in Bestial Mutagens. They're not meant for melee.
They only go to Master with their class DC. I agree they should go to Legendary, but it affects nothing anyway. A big part of Bombs damage is splash, so their chances to hit is not that important. Giving Master proficiency with Bombs should not break everything, but they need to give it to all Alchemist's specializations.
Also, you can give Elixirs in one action thanks to your Familiar. Alchemical Familiar is one of the tax feats.
No niche??? The Alchemist is by far the best buffer of the game. He gives +4 to any skill at highest level. He can create whatever Elixir is needed on the spot. And poison is always overlooked when it's a very unique ability as it's the only long duration buff of the whole game (I can't wait for the new poisons when the poisoner will be released). It's clearly the support class by excellence.
One of the biggest issue with the Alchemist is its quadratic progression. It's a very bad class at low level, and it really starts to shine after level 10. But I don't see how to fix that.
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Yeah, the combat math in general is...not great, and Powerful Alchemy should likely be baked in, and several other Feats are a tad lackluster.
Honestly, I think Alchemist would be fine with Medium Armor Proficiency (scaling when Light does), going to Master in attacks at about 15th level, and baking in Powerful Alchemy. That'd be really easy to implement, too.
Mutagenist specifically could also use some actual bonus from using Mutagens themselves rather than passing them to others. Mutagens are a good buff, but not quite enough on their own.
Most of the times skill Mutagen is just a +1 or a +2, riddled with extreme penalties as well.
A simple inspire competence, heroism, guidance keeps up with them, applies to all skills, and has no negatives.
Skill Mutagens go up to +4. Skill Item bonuses go up to +2, in general to only a few uses of a skill. As you can invest only 10 items, you'll clearly not have bonuses in everything.
Inspire Competence doesn't work. I have played bards enough to know you'll use it once in a blue moon.Heroism only lasts 10 minutes, which is a massive drawback. And anyway, Mutagens stack with Heroism for better bonuses.
Guidance is nice, but very limited (it's a cantrip so it's quite normal).
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Skill Item bonuses go up to +2, in general to only a few uses of a skill.
This isn't true. Items go up to +3, and most apply to the whole Skill. some are restricted, but it's not a majority.
Now, Mutagen is still a higher bonus and you still can't get bonuses to everything with Items, but skill items aren't nearly as bad as you're saying they are.
But my issue is that, almost always, the Mutagenist is better off passing off most skill-based Mutagens to other PCs to use rather than using them themself. Which sucks. They need some incentive to use them on themselves.
I see a few problems with the Alchemist and I agree with some of your points, but I tend to disagree about others.
Alchemist is a support class, and thus has low survivability. Going melee with an Alchemist is as bad as an idea than going melee with any caster. Mutagenists are specialized in Mutagens, not in Bestial Mutagens. They're not meant for melee.
From the sidebar for the example Mutagenist in the core book, and the fact that the original Mutagenist field ability was something specifically geared toward unarmed melee, it seems quite clear that Paizo intended the Mutagenist to be the path for those trying to play the melee Alchemist of PF1.
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From the sidebar for the example Mutagenist in the core book, and the fact that the original Mutagenist field ability was something specifically geared toward unarmed melee, it seems quite clear that Paizo intended the Mutagenist to be the path for those trying to play the melee Alchemist of PF1.
This is absolutely true. But, at the moment, it just doesn't actually work, which is, I think, where he was going with that, but it still sucks anyway.
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From the sidebar for the example Mutagenist in the core book, and the fact that the original Mutagenist field ability was something specifically geared toward unarmed melee, it seems quite clear that Paizo intended the Mutagenist to be the path for those trying to play the melee Alchemist of PF1.I see a few problems with the Alchemist and I agree with some of your points, but I tend to disagree about others.
Alchemist is a support class, and thus has low survivability. Going melee with an Alchemist is as bad as an idea than going melee with any caster. Mutagenists are specialized in Mutagens, not in Bestial Mutagens. They're not meant for melee.
PF2 system is far more limited than PF1 if you want to play gishes. It just doesn't work anymore. So, maybe Paizo intended the Mutagenist to be a melee character like any other martial, but right now, it is so far from being a valid one that it's not even worth trying in my opinion. You need more Weapon and Armor Proficiencies, you need some combat feats and you need more hit points and better saves. So, you need a complete class overhaul.
Skill Item bonuses go up to +2, in general to only a few uses of a skill.This isn't true. Items go up to +3, and most apply to the whole Skill. some are restricted, but it's not a majority.
Now, Mutagen is still a higher bonus and you still can't get bonuses to everything with Items, but skill items aren't nearly as bad as you're saying they are.
But my issue is that, almost always, the Mutagenist is better off passing off most skill-based Mutagens to other PCs to use rather than using them themself. Which sucks. They need some incentive to use them on themselves.
I agree with you. That's why I say the Alchemist is a support class. It may not be the original intention when making the Alchemist, but it's what it is in its current state.
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Yeah, the combat math in general is...not great, and Powerful Alchemy should likely be baked in, and several other Feats are a tad lackluster.
Honestly, I think Alchemist would be fine with Medium Armor Proficiency (scaling when Light does), going to Master in attacks at about 15th level, and baking in Powerful Alchemy. That'd be really easy to implement, too.
Mutagenist specifically could also use some actual bonus from using Mutagens themselves rather than passing them to others. Mutagens are a good buff, but not quite enough on their own.
In my latest version of my rules changes (just uploaded a minute ago), I've tried to address some of these issues. These are in addition to the previous changes I made, which address some other things people raised (like all Mutagenists get a +1 Item bonus for a mutagen they ingest).
For the Bombers, they now get the Powerful Alchemy feat for free at 1st level.
For Mutagenists, they get Medium Armor that scales along with their Light armor.
For Chirurgeons, I gave them the Battle Medicine feat for free at 1st level.
To balance all these out, I gave the Toxicologists (a new field I created) the Rogue feat Poison Weapon for free at 1st level.
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I agree with you. That's why I say the Alchemist is a support class. It may not be the original intention when making the Alchemist, but it's what it is in its current state.Skill Item bonuses go up to +2, in general to only a few uses of a skill.This isn't true. Items go up to +3, and most apply to the whole Skill. some are restricted, but it's not a majority.
Now, Mutagen is still a higher bonus and you still can't get bonuses to everything with Items, but skill items aren't nearly as bad as you're saying they are.
But my issue is that, almost always, the Mutagenist is better off passing off most skill-based Mutagens to other PCs to use rather than using them themself. Which sucks. They need some incentive to use them on themselves.
This isn't a thread about how best to play the class in its current state, though, it's a thread about problems with the class. That includes addressing issues that make the class not function as intended, such as the absence of any viable melee builds, or the fact that the mutagenist is better served passing out their mutagens than drinking them themself.
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In our group we have an alchemist as well. They've just reached 2nd level, and the alchemist decided to take a MC Wizard dedication. Now he's using his attack cantrip almost exclusively during combat, which should give an idea how weak simply relying on his bombs is. He's more effective with Produce Flame than anything the alchemist class can offer.
This said, he's great at healing, and ready to hand out alchemical tools to fight poison or whatever. Very versatile, but not a frontliner by any stretch of the imagination.
Still, he's having a great time and contributes well to the party. I too would like to see the alchemist errata'd or even upgraded in future errata releases. Our pals at Paizo said that some of the errata they'd been considering are more complex and will take more time to make sure they get it right, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the alchemist issues are amongst these more complex fixes.
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I did a basic comparison of a bomber alchemist to other options here. It's long, but the tl;dr is that for an alchemist's entire career throwing an alchemist's fire deals about as much damage as a wizard using the produce flame cantrip while using a limited resource, and you probably should have been a precision ranger with alchemist dedication instead if you wanted to bomb better.
I think part of the problem is that bombs are just bad compared to spells after low levels while not having any advantages in usability, or cost.
Alchemists were put in a weird place because they have so many more "top level" resources than a spellcaster that the power of those resources had to be kept in check. It resulted in a class that has limited per day resources, but those resources are incredibly weak since they are comparatively so plentiful.
I think the most damning part of the current alchemist design is that they don't really need to be there for much of their contribution to the party. If they create all their advanced alchemy items in the morning, hand them to their party members, and then stay safe and sound in the party HQ they're probably contributing 80% of what they would if they actually went adventuring.
I honestly feel like putting the alchemist class in the core book has hurt both alchemical items and the class since it seems like design decisions were made with the idea that only alchemists would be using many alchemical items. I would have preferred that all alchemical items were made in a state where they were all worth purchasing and then made the class work around those items. As it is nobody is ever, ever going to buy a high level bomb or mutagen, and the only reason you'll ever see them in play is if your alchemist buddy gets them for free every day.
I did a basic comparison of a bomber alchemist to other options here. It's long, but the tl;dr is that for an alchemist's entire career throwing an alchemist's fire deals about as much damage as a wizard using the produce flame cantrip while using a limited resource, and you probably should have been a precision ranger with alchemist dedication instead if you wanted to bomb better.
Does your comparison take into account the potential extra damage from Calculated Splash and Expanded Splash?
Does your comparison take into account the potential extra damage from Calculated Splash and Expanded Splash?I did a basic comparison of a bomber alchemist to other options here. It's long, but the tl;dr is that for an alchemist's entire career throwing an alchemist's fire deals about as much damage as a wizard using the produce flame cantrip while using a limited resource, and you probably should have been a precision ranger with alchemist dedication instead if you wanted to bomb better.
It does not. I was mostly trying to do comparisons without adding feats since the number of comparison points rapidly grows.
I should probably go back and add those in, since from a quick eyeballing, it looks like those feats would make perpetual bombs roughly keep up with a cantrip and your limited bombs roughly keep up with the precision ranger bomber until ~17+ when the ranger pulls away again.
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Doggie Bert hit the nail on the head. The best alchemist a party can have is a selfless hireling who gives away mutagens and elixirs as needed and stays out of harms way. The alchemist can make everybody else win, but is usually a combat liability because they can’t survive and don’t keep up in attack. I am curious to see how different the investigator is both from the PF2 alchemist and the PF1 investigator.
This isn't a thread about how best to play the class in its current state, though, it's a thread about problems with the class. That includes addressing issues that make the class not function as intended, such as the absence of any viable melee builds, or the fact that the mutagenist is better served passing out their mutagens than drinking them themself.
If you don't know how to play the class, you can't fix its problems. The absence of viable melee builds is only a problem if you consider the class role is to go melee. If you consider the Alchemist a support class many problems you speak about just disappear.
As I like support characters, I like the current overall state of the Alchemist. There are clear issues with some of its abilities, but not issues as big as making the Alchemist a viable melee build. And making the Alchemist viable in melee would just remove its support specialization. After all, what would be the point in handing Mutagens if you use them better than anyone else. So, its not a change I would like to see implemented as its a complete shift of class role.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This isn't a thread about how best to play the class in its current state, though, it's a thread about problems with the class. That includes addressing issues that make the class not function as intended, such as the absence of any viable melee builds, or the fact that the mutagenist is better served passing out their mutagens than drinking them themself.
If you don't know how to play the class, you can't fix its problems. The absence of viable melee builds is only a problem if you consider the class role is to go melee. If you consider the Alchemist a support class many problems you speak about just disappear.
As I like support characters, I like the current overall state of the Alchemist. There are clear issues with some of its abilities, but not issues as big as making the Alchemist a viable melee build. And making the Alchemist viable in melee would just remove its support specialization. After all, what would be the point in handing Mutagens if you use them better than anyone else. So, its not a change I would like to see implemented as its a complete shift of class role.
In what way would opening up an additional build option remove the Alchemist's ability to be played as a support class? It's clear Paizo intends a support role to be one of several possible paths for the Alchemist to follow. Making sure the less support oriented roles work doesn't stop anyone from playing the Alchemist as a pure support, it just allows other Alchemist players to build an Alchemist more in line with their tastes.
What's more, the point that's being made about Mutagens is a little less about wanting Alchemists to be better served by mutagens than anyone else, it's about correcting the fact that an Alchemist almost never actually wants to drink their own Mutagens. If most of your alchemical items work better in someone else's hands, why shouldn't you just pass out all your items at the beginning of the day, and then skip the adventure? A class who's better off not showing up cannot possibly be working as intended.
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In social encounters, I have found the skill-based mutagens to be a pretty nice buff to hand out. The combat-focused ones have their problems, but I think the skill mutagens are one of the Alchemist's strengths.
Thanks for starting this thread. I was going to do so myself but I had to take the kiddos trick or treating :)
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If you look at the "Roleplaying the Alchemist" section of the core rules it doesn't feel like you can really do any of that. You can throw bombs, or make elixirs, or make mutagens that hurt you more than they help you. That might improve with time as more items are added but do people have to wait a year for a class to be viable and fun?
I think this last comment sums up the overall issue with the Alchemist nicely. The class doesn't really do what it says on the tin. The fantasy of the Alchemist from PF1 has carried over in the fluff, but the mechanical execution falls short.
In my home game I've been noticing it especially since the whole party is playing characters based on our earliest PF1 characters.
The Sorcerer player has been having a great time as a charming pyromaniac, and has pulled off some really cool moments with his fire spells reminiscent of those of his very first PF1 character. The Barbarian is an absolute beast (as he should be) and has been stomping mooks left and right. But I'm left feeling like I can't quite capture the destructive mad scientist that was my PF1 Alchemist.
As a lover of the Mutagen chugging melee mauler builds in 1e, I consider the 2e Alchemist, particularly Mutagenist, a disgrace.
Currently, Mutagen hurts you more than helps you. Bestial Mutagen for example, makes you squishier and easier to kill. That's because they didn't model 2e Mutagens on their 1e counterparts. If they had, Bestial Mutagen would look something like this: +1 Status Bonus to AC (Natural Armor), +1 to hit with Unarmed Strikes, 1d6 bite and 1d4 claw attacks, and the drawback would be mental: -2 on skill checks except for Athletics and Acrobatics.
If the developers had just stayed truer to the 1e Alchemist, this mess wouldn't have happened. Currently, there's no way to play the Mr. Hyde build from 1e, which is a real shame. Energy Mutagen has some use, but Bestial Mutagen just gets you killed.
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I understand there are a lot of passionate Alchemist fans on these forums (I'm one of them!), but let's please try to keep our language polite and respectful, even while we're being critical. A lot of wonderful people worked on this game, and we can give feedback without being disrespectful of the immense amount of love and care that was undoubtedly put into Pathfinder 2.
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Yeah, a lot of the Alchemist's problem comes down to very late stage changes hitting them harder.
They attacked vs. Touch AC with bombs in the playtest (after which, Touch AC was ditched...spellcasters got an accuracy bump to compensate and Alchemists somehow didn't), which was a virtual +2 or so on average in to-hit, and thus equal to (or better than) full martial characters in most cases (since Master only gave +2 over Trained, then) and their AC issue was more easily solved since a single General Feat got them Medium Armor that was at the same Proficiency as their Light Armor, and more AC came from magic armor anyway. The melee build still had some issues, but not nearly as many.
In short, the Alchemist suffers from stuff that never got playtested because it was put in place after the playtest and the Alchemist just wasn't quite modified properly to adapt to. That's not a 'disgrace' or any other hyperbolic issues, it's just an unfortunate thing that happened, and hardly one that is impossible, or even especially difficult or unlikely, to be fixed.
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Yeah, a lot of the Alchemist's problem comes down to very late stage changes hitting them harder.
They attacked vs. Touch AC with bombs in the playtest (after which, Touch AC was ditched...spellcasters got an accuracy bump to compensate and Alchemists somehow didn't), which was a virtual +2 or so on average in to-hit, and thus equal to (or better than) full martial characters in most cases (since Master only gave +2 over Trained, then) and their AC issue was more easily solved since a single General Feat got them Medium Armor that was at the same Proficiency as their Light Armor, and more AC came from magic armor anyway. The melee build still had some issues, but not nearly as many.
In short, the Alchemist suffers from stuff that never got playtested because it was put in place after the playtest and the Alchemist just wasn't quite modified properly to adapt to. That's not a 'disgrace' or any other hyperbolic issues, it's just an unfortunate thing that happened, and hardly one that is impossible, or even especially difficult or unlikely, to be fixed.
PF2's tight math is really a double-edged sword. Every +1 mattering is great for gameplay, but it also means that if a class is under-tuned, you really feel it.
I'm glad Paizo seems to be more willing to make updates through errata in this edition, and hopefully we won't have to wait too long for some more substantial Alchemist fixes.
For the Bombers, they now get the Powerful Alchemy feat for free at 1st level.
For Mutagenists, they get Medium Armor that scales along with their Light armor.
For Chirurgeons, I gave them the Battle Medicine feat for free at 1st level.
This feels like it's in the right direction...
Mutagenicist is the Alchemist's Ruffian so no reason to require bandaid for what should be it's de facto standard approach (Medium Armor).
Chirurgeon may consider General Feat for Medium Training, but that feels more optional as training wheel until filling out DEX for Expert Light.
If Bestial Mutagen's penalty to AC was changed to penalize DEX, it would still potentially penalize AC, but not if you normally exceed armor DEX cap, which seems better place for Mutagenicist in Medium Armor. It seems like Mutagenicist should also get CritSpec for melee Simple & Unarmed attacks, since every other combat class does in their schtick (although Save DC seems like it should be STR based in that case, despite INT Key Stat->Class DC currently).
I think the Chirurgeon should allow using INT instead of WIS for Medicine.
Overall, I like that different Research Fields have different stat focus, and melee/ranged builds prioritizing physical stats more than INT should be considered in balancing the class and research fields, so starting 16/14/16 (STR/DEX/CON) with 12 INT could work as melee Mutagenicist build for example.