That's exactly as it should be. The evil nature of fiends is especially damaging to those who oppose them.
With fiends vulnerable to Good, Paladins give way more than they take in Aligned damage department.
Not to mention other abilities that work great fighting fiends. So yeah, look at one mechanic in isolation, what a laugh.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Its not the worst thing, I kinda dig that Paladins and such are effective against them, but that the gritty "hunter" type character has its own advantages.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it is actually appropriate that a paladins greatest enemy and antithesis is their most dangerous enemy in addition to being the enemy they can unleash the most hurt on. A fight between a Paladin and a fiend is a bitter struggle in which neither of them come out unbloodied.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I apt to agree with you about this. I personally find it weird that the alignment damage is so bland in nature. I'd rather see it more nuanced.
The nature of evil and in particular fiends is that harmful to all, even itself. Evil feads at evil as well. As such I think evil damage should be equally deadly towards good, neutral AND evil. As it is now the evil is deadly only towards good and vice versa. It's fairly boring and not at all thematic in the way evil works (IMO).
In AP Hells Vengeance we see again and again how evil hits back at itself (and good of course) through for example the harmful and cruel infighting. The reason that people turn towards evil is that's its more accessible and easy to procure. People make pacts and sacrifices with evil entities to gain power rather than go the long hard road of righteousness (where you must prove yourself through good deeds before getting a modicum of power).
I would change aligment damage (Evil) so that it can hurt good, evil- and neutral-aligned. Good damage still only targets evil. Because good is considerate and precise and will not harm the innocent (good and neutral in this case). Evil is equal opportunity in terms of who it affects. Hellfire is as deadly to devil as the demon (and others ofc).
This of course makes evil weapons and spells far more efficient since they can harm anybody. As such I would consider decreasing evil damage to 50% or decrease the hit-die on step. From 1d6 for unholy weapons to 1d4. Maybe 1d3.
I would also take away evil vulnerability on celestials (fiends still have their vulnerability). The attribute evil has over good is its total ruthlessness. An evil fiend can save an orphanage full of children if it suits the purposes of evil or itself, that is a fiend will do good deeds even if its against its nature. A celestial will not slaughter children of an orphanage even if it would suite purposes of good or itself (don't ask how). A celestial will not commit evil deeds due to its nature. Hence some kind RP rules (like those of demons, I love those) can replace they fact that Celestials will hit fiends harder than fiends hit Celestials. On the other had fiends will damage everything harder than Celestials will since evil damage is harmful to all.
Of course the only real solution is to do what 5E did and drop alignment.
I'm on the side of dropping alignments as they are usually just used to justify atrocities, stereotyping, and racism in the fictional world, but.
Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.
There never is a perfect system.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course the only real solution is to do what 5E did and drop alignment.I'm on the side of dropping alignments as they are usually just used to justify atrocities, stereotyping, and racism in the fictional world, but.
5e still technically has alignment, but there's only maybe a dozen things in the game that interact with it, and most of those are either artifacts or optional rules. So they kept it in to appeal to people who like it but made it easy to completely ignore it.
Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.
There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.
It's only catch-22 if you equate lawful process with "good". Their execution has nothing to do with their crimes. They are being killed because they are objectively evil and killing them is a good act because the alignment based damage being used to kill them is objectively good.
Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.
I'm not sure how a commoner would live to be stabbed by a divine lance. He may not take damage, but nothing states it will be the most pleasant experience he'll ever have.
|
It's only catch-22 if you equate lawful process with "good". Their execution has nothing to do with their crimes. They are being killed because they are objectively evil and killing them is a good act because the alignment based damage being used to kill them is objectively good.Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.
Killing Evil creatures sends them to the Evil planes, thereby strengthening Evil on the cosmic scale. Better to redeem them if you can.
Killing Evil creatures sends them to the Evil planes, thereby strengthening Evil on the cosmic scale. Better to redeem them if you can.It's only catch-22 if you equate lawful process with "good". Their execution has nothing to do with their crimes. They are being killed because they are objectively evil and killing them is a good act because the alignment based damage being used to kill them is objectively good.Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.
I don't believe that's true in Pathfinder (not sure if you're talking about D&D, PF, or Psychopass).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So call me cynical but I feel they everyman would be willing to put up with a lot to categorically know their neighbours aren't EVIL including being hit with beams of harmless light. The old security liberty trade off a lot of people would rather feel more secure than free. The system will because people will want it to work and will ignore the cracks. Dystopias are great like that.Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.I'm not sure how a commoner would live to be stabbed by a divine lance. He may not take damage, but nothing states it will be the most pleasant experience he'll ever have.
Until their 3 yo kid got killed...
Alignment are not fixed and change during your life. Killing everyone who has been evil is far different than killing everyone who is currently evil.Anyway, it's a dystopia, so, by definition, it should work :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Plus, it wouldn’t be sustainable. Killing or hurting people for being an unspecified evil isn’t a good act, and you’d have your casters falling periodically.
So call me cynical but I feel they everyman would be willing to put up with a lot to categorically know their neighbours aren't EVIL including being hit with beams of harmless light. The old security liberty trade off a lot of people would rather feel more secure than free. The system will because people will want it to work and will ignore the cracks. Dystopias are great like that.Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.I'm not sure how a commoner would live to be stabbed by a divine lance. He may not take damage, but nothing states it will be the most pleasant experience he'll ever have.
no one ever has a revolution and then wonders about what type of government they're going to create.
eventually people take their safety for granted and revolt for a freer one, only for the freedom to be chiseled away as people demand more safety.
of course, many people give up their freedom for other reasons as well. power glory revenge. mind you, there are revolutions that remove freedoms and there are revolutions that free people and was not the intent.
anyway, i find it probable that a chaotic good society could possibly get away with anti-evil turrets, they really don't care about court of law or intent, only outcome, and the outcome is less evil people.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Meanwhile, there are Devils down in hell arguing "I don't see why we should take extra damage from paladins, we are expert paladin hunters".
As to the other debate, I still maintain that even in a universe with cosmic forces of good and evil, having evil thoughts or intentions or personality as a mortal being still doesn't justify being smited within a lawful society. Even with good and evil being objective, cosmic forces, I still believe that people should be punished for making evil choices, not for having evil natures.
There are people in the real world who could be considered truly evil even before they did horrible things, but I would still condemn the actions of someone who tried to punish them when that person hasn't yet committed tangible unlawful and evil actions.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even with good and evil being objective, cosmic forces, I still believe that people should be punished for making evil choices, not for having evil natures.
This is not how Alignment works in-universe. Not for mortals, anyway. Alignment is entirely descriptive of behavior. If you haven't done anything Evil, then you aren't Evil. It is in the doing of something Evil that you become Evil.
Now, I do agree that not all Evil people should be killed in most civilized societies, but that's because many acts that make someone Evil are not worthy of a death sentence, not because an 'evil nature' is a thing. I mean, being a serial and unrepentant adulterer is definitely an Evil act. Add in being a bit of a bully, and maybe being dishonest in your profession, and someone could very easily be Evil aligned without, very possibly, ever even having broken a law or harmed a single person physically.
|
|
I think it is: evil soul becomes an evil petitioner that (possibly) becomes a devil/demon/daemon (or whatnot). It is a fairly marginal thing: the odds are that it won't be a big empowerment of evil (most evil petitioners don't rise very high). A good soul could spend eternity singing "Joy to the World" (Jeremy was a Bullfrog version for CG) and not adding a lot to the forces of Good. On the other hand, that redeemed gnoll might end up becoming a Solar instead of a Balor.I don't believe that's true in Pathfinder (not sure if you're talking about D&D, PF, or Psychopass).Killing Evil creatures sends them to the Evil planes, thereby strengthening Evil on the cosmic scale. Better to redeem them if you can.It's only catch-22 if you equate lawful process with "good". Their execution has nothing to do with their crimes. They are being killed because they are objectively evil and killing them is a good act because the alignment based damage being used to kill them is objectively good.Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.
IIRC in the Golarion setting a petitioner that does not become a higher level Outsider becomes part of the aligned plane where it resides. So a CE soul becomes a CE petitioner and if they do not become a full-fledged Demon, they eventually become part of the Abyss, thereby directly strengthening the CE plane.
Even with good and evil being objective, cosmic forces, I still believe that people should be punished for making evil choices, not for having evil natures.This is not how Alignment works in-universe. Not for mortals, anyway. Alignment is entirely descriptive of behavior. If you haven't done anything Evil, then you aren't Evil. It is in the doing of something Evil that you become Evil.
Now, I do agree that not all Evil people should be killed in most civilized societies, but that's because many acts that make someone Evil are not worthy of a death sentence, not because an 'evil nature' is a thing. I mean, being a serial and unrepentant adulterer is definitely an Evil act. Add in being a bit of a bully, and maybe being dishonest in your profession, and someone could very easily be Evil aligned without, very possibly, ever even having broken a law or harmed a single person physically.
I was referring in this case to the people who think that alignment is descriptive of innate natures beyond behaviour - I am firmly in the behaviour camp myself, but a fair few people are making arguments based on a contrary "alignment is determined by your thoughts" camp, to which I was addressing that specific argument.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was referring in this case to the people who think that alignment is descriptive of innate natures beyond behaviour - I am firmly in the behaviour camp myself, but a fair few people are making arguments based on a contrary "alignment is determined by your thoughts" camp, to which I was addressing that specific argument.
Fair enough. I believe those people are flatly wrong in PF2 in terms of actual rules and in Golarion in terms of setting, however.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish it was good and evil didnbormal damage to everyone, but if a good creature takes evil damage, they become Sickened, and if someone evil took good damage, they'd be frightened or something like that. Far more thematic and doesnt result in creatures taking big damage from things they have trained to resist
IIRC in the Golarion setting a petitioner that does not become a higher level Outsider becomes part of the aligned plane where it resides. So a CE soul...I think it is: evil soul becomes an evil petitioner that (possibly) becomes a devil/demon/daemon (or whatnot). It is a fairly marginal thing: the odds are that it won't be a big empowerment of evil (most evil petitioners don't rise very high). A good soul could spend eternity singing "Joy to the World" (Jeremy was a Bullfrog version for CG) and not adding a lot to the forces of Good. On the other hand, that redeemed gnoll might end up becoming a Solar instead of a Balor.I don't believe that's true in Pathfinder (not sure if you're talking about D&D, PF, or Psychopass).Killing Evil creatures sends them to the Evil planes, thereby strengthening Evil on the cosmic scale. Better to redeem them if you can.It's only catch-22 if you equate lawful process with "good". Their execution has nothing to do with their crimes. They are being killed because they are objectively evil and killing them is a good act because the alignment based damage being used to kill them is objectively good.Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.
i got into a pretty long argument in another thread, but apparently there's more proof that what god you worship is a stronger sign of where you go than your alignment.
I could not find any wording that actually says a creature goes to the plane of their same alignment. so like CE worshippers of gorum goes to elysium, a LE worshipper of abadar ..., etc.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's only catch-22 if you equate lawful process with "good". Their execution has nothing to do with their crimes. They are being killed because they are objectively evil and killing them is a good act because the alignment based damage being used to kill them is objectively good.Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.
This has never, and will never, be true.
The majority of Cheliax's citizens are LE. Killing them on a large scale would still 100% be an evil act.
Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.
Speaking of which, a LE country that decided to go full militant? Would 100% love it.
It's also funny that Psycho-Pass is brought up as an example...
Mind you one thing I quite like about alignment Damage is that it could lead to a pyschopass style dystopia were cities went about actively purging evil from them with detect evil sensors and alignment damaged based turrets on every corner to mow down anyone that pings as evil, its flawless because the turrets can't hurt collateral as only evil creatures are damaged by them.There's a funny catch-22 that prevents this: executing humanoids without evidence of a crime being committed could be considered an evil act. Psycho Pass works because the system's definition of evil is inherently flawed and is frankly closer to what Pathfinder alignment would consider to be chaotic.Speaking of which, a LE country that decided to go full militant? Would 100% love it.
It's also funny that Psycho-Pass is brought up as an example...
** spoiler omitted **
There's some new setting details in the new season that just debuted this week that are pretty fun/relevant:
The Pathfinder equivalent would be the rich and powerful doing the Al Capone thing and opening soup kitchens so their alignment evens out to Neutral. I doubt this works in the way alignment is described in Golarion, but it's a pretty cool spin on the D&D alignment question for another setting.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's only catch-22 if you equate lawful process with "good". Their execution has nothing to do with their crimes. They are being killed because they are objectively evil and killing them is a good act because the alignment based damage being used to kill them is objectively good.This has never, and will never, be true.
This is 100% correct. 'Evil' has a much lower bar than 'deserving of death' does. I mentioned above that an otherwise Neutral person might be Evil due to repeatedly cheating on his wife and maybe being kind of an a&+%##&. Those are hardly sins worthy of execution.
The majority of Cheliax's citizens are LE. Killing them on a large scale would still 100% be an evil act.
This, however, is not correct. Most people, in all civilizations, tend to be some variety of Neutral. LE citizens are certainly much more common in Cheliax than they are in, say, Andoran, but they aren't the majority.
It's only catch-22 if you equate lawful process with "good". Their execution has nothing to do with their crimes. They are being killed because they are objectively evil and killing them is a good act because the alignment based damage being used to kill them is objectively good.This has never, and will never, be true.This is 100% correct. 'Evil' has a much lower bar than 'deserving of death' does. I mentioned above that an otherwise Neutral person might be Evil due to repeatedly cheating on his wife and maybe being kind of an a#%$@%!. Those are hardly sins worthy of execution.
The majority of Cheliax's citizens are LE. Killing them on a large scale would still 100% be an evil act.This, however, is not correct. Most people, in all civilizations, tend to be some variety of Neutral. LE citizens are certainly much more common in Cheliax than they are in, say, Andoran, but they aren't the majority.
Source on that ?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Source on that ?
Well, Champions of Balance does list neutral alignments as the 'default' alignment of mortals, but really I'm mostly going based on the vast majority of published generic NPCs not even suggesting that they'll mostly or always be aligned with the nation they're from, and frankly with even named NPCs not aligning as strongly with their nation of origin as the idea would imply.
I’ve always viewed alignment as a grid with nine boxes, but more than nine positions. The ultra-pure paladin would be in the very north-west corner, while your average orderly nice farmer is also in the lawful good box but much closer to the middle of the grid.
Committing Evil acts moves you south, committing good acts moves you north and so on.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Source on that ?Well, Champions of Balance does list neutral alignments as the 'default' alignment of mortals, but really I'm mostly going based on the vast majority of published generic NPCs not even suggesting that they'll mostly or always be aligned with the nation they're from, and frankly with even named NPCs not aligning as strongly with their nation of origin as the idea would imply.
Its also just common sense, most societies are made up of ordinary people just going with the flow - evil regimes happen more due to a small group of evil individuals taking advantage of the majorities neutral indifference (or good, but not brave enough to go against the grain).
Your average Chelaxian is probably not pulling the wings of flies and kicking puppies for fun, they are probably just living their life and doing what they are told.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A similar issue is: "why do creatures from the frozen north always deal Cold damage? All their natural foes are resistant or immune to Cold!"
I did find that amusing.
The white dragon can breathe cold and ice! To which everything around it that it would be prone to use it on (silver dragons, frost giants, winter wolves, other white dragons...) is utterly immune. I guess he can use it on the occasional polar bear, just for giggles, even though it would be wildly overkill, like killing flies with a blowtorch.