Champion template [some questions]


Rules Discussion


Hi there,

We are currently playing age of ashes campaign, so no spoilers here ( I am just writing this to let you know the situation I am into ).

It is our first attempt with 2e but we are doing fine. The system looks quite good and more important, everything goes smooth with the 3 actions combat.

I am playing a Half orc Paladin, and I was looking into possibilities since we are now lvl 2.

My stats are

18
10
14
10
14
12

I had some issues because of the missing dex point, but now i can afford a heavy armor so , even if not a full plate, I am fine.

1) Currently I am playing spiked glove and shield, but since athletic manoveurs seems not the right choice if compared to pure dmg, i was considering alternatives.

At lvl 1 I took ranged reprisal, and my idea was to get a reach weapon to Cover the maximum dinstance for my Champion reaction.

A glaive, as my goddess's weapon, could be the right choice, but I was also considering the gnome flickermace.

Herr the first issue.

By lvl 8 I Plan to take advanced domain in order to use protective sphere.

That spell needs 1 sustain action, which brings to my first issue.

Considering that I will be mostly using my reaction for my champion's one, and not for a shield block, and the fact I plan to use always 1 action to sudati the sphere, using another action to raise shield will leave me just 1 roll to attack.

Could this be worth it?
Or would be better to have a better weapon in order to deal more dmg and attacks?

I know that I can decide not to raise the shield, especially if the enemies have low armor, but still I am not convinced.

Also, if I got it right, I won't be expert proficient in the flickermace mace if not by lvl 13, with the right feat. Isn't it?

2) second question. Divine ally. I can't decide what to take.

A shield seems not worth it, because I won't be using my reaction on me most or the time.

Divine blade could be nice, but only for thr first tier. I really find useless the progression because it gives me runes, and not perks. Also smite evil will require me to use an action, so it is out of my possibilities.

About Divine Steed, I am worrried I won't be able to use it, because of indoor fights. It also counter my ranged reprisal, so it would be a horse which just do nothing. Even if I could consider having a dps pet, but I am not sure if thr dm would allow me to do that.

Talking about Divine Steed, age of ashes sees many indoor stuff? Just think, if you happened to played it, would be a horse companion worth it? Just say Yes or no. Without explanation.

3) how could I use my class feats?

I currently have decided.

1) ranged reprisal
2) deity's domain
4)
6)
8) advanced deity's domain
10)
12) blade of justice
14) divine reflexes
16)
18) celestial form
20)

Thanks for reading, and please share your thoughts.


K1 wrote:

1) Currently I am playing spiked glove and shield, but since athletic manoveurs seems not the right choice if compared to pure dmg, i was considering alternatives.

At lvl 1 I took ranged reprisal, and my idea was to get a reach weapon to Cover the maximum dinstance for my Champion reaction.

A glaive, as my goddess's weapon, could be the right choice, but I was also considering the gnome flickermace.

If you want reach, damage and maneuvers, why not use a Guisarme? It limits you to Trip, but I'd say that's the most powerful maneuver anyway. Alternatively get a Bo Staff. Which allows you to "kinda-Raise Shield" if you ever have an action to spare.

Quote:

Considering that I will be mostly using my reaction for my champion's one, and not for a shield block, and the fact I plan to use always 1 action to sudati the sphere, using another action to raise shield will leave me just 1 roll to attack.

Could this be worth it?
Or would be better to have a better weapon in order to deal more dmg and attacks?

Well, if I was planning to do a build with only one Strike per round, I'd make sure that strike counts. So get as large a damage die as you can.

Sustaining the spell every round does indeed hurt your action economy quite a bit. I'd probably not use a shield in that case. You still have the best AC in the game as a Champion. For the occasional "I got an action to spare and need more AC"-situation, use the Bo Staff's parry trait or learn the shield cantrip somehow.

Quote:
Also, if I got it right, I won't be expert proficient in the flickermace mace if not by lvl 13, with the right feat. Isn't it?

No, you treat it as martial weapon with the first level feat. The level 13 feat is only needed for characters with subpar proficiencies like the wizard.

Quote:

second question. Divine ally. I can't decide what to take.

A shield seems not worth it, because I won't be using my reaction on me most or the time.

Divine blade could be nice, but only for thr first tier. I really find useless the progression because it gives me runes, and not perks. Also smite evil will require me to use an action, so it is out of my possibilities.

About Divine Steed, I am worrried I won't be able to use it, because of indoor fights. It also counter my ranged reprisal, so it would be a horse which just do nothing. Even if I could consider having a dps pet, but I am not sure if thr dm would allow me to do that.

Talking about Divine Steed, age of ashes sees many indoor stuff? Just think, if you happened to played it, would be a horse companion worth it? Just say Yes or no. Without explanation.

Haven't played or seen Age of Ashes. I'll just say that an animal companion would be the last thing I'd consider if I were already short on actions.

I'd go with Blade Ally. Transformative grants you some flexibility and picking up Holy at 10 might not be the most exciting thing to do, but it's still an effective enchantment.

Quote:

3) how could I use my class feats?

I currently have decided.

1) ranged reprisal
2) deity's domain
4)
6)
8) advanced deity's domain
10)
12) blade of justice
14) divine reflexes
16)
18) celestial form
20)

You unfortunately lack the Dex to pick up fighter dedication and its shield feats.

I'd go with something like
4 - Aura of Courage
6 - Mercy. The ability to remove Paralyzed is a pretty handy thing to have. The Frightened-removal will probably not be useful all that often if you have Aura of Courage.
10- Devoted Focus or Radiant Blade Spirit
16- Affliction Mercy
20- Ultimate Mercy

Or just Multiclass. You have some Wisdom. Those 5 open feat slots are enough to get all Spellcasting feats from the Cleric Dedication, brining you closer to your goddess (for RP reasons) while providing you with lots of useful spells (fo spells reasons).


Thanks for the reply Blave ( sorry for my bad editing but I am from mobile so multi quote would be a long thing ).

About athletics mine was merely s consideration in terms of action economy.

I mean, given the fact I would be using 1 action to sustain a spell ( or raise shield before that ), would athletic be the right choice?

I was considering changing attitude towards it. So move on from athetics to damage.

That’s why I was considering using a glaive ( deadly + forceful + reach )

Eventually with 2 cleric feats i could both increase its dmg to 1d10 and gain the shield cantrip, which will give the parry bonus from a Bo staff ( or even a block reaction).

However I agree the guisarme is definjtely the best deal, as you suggested.

Thanks for have expained me the proficiency on uncommon weapons.

About horse companion it was mostly because by lvl 10 it would have his free action, even if I don't expend mine.

The extra free rune could be better. I am somehow worried about the critical specialization, because it is not a choice for polearms, which could mean that I will have to move because I set an enemy out of range.

About mercy I am not really convinced.
It is an improve mentre which doesn't give extra focus points. Also my ChariSma won't hit 18 until 15,so I would be at disadvantage in terms of countering/dispelling.

I was even considering to take a sorc dedication to use arcane spells true strike or haste ( I say arcane because ring of wizardly doesn't work with druid clerics bards and not arcane sorc ).

With an extra action I could even consider to raise a shield while sustaining a spell )


K1 wrote:

About athletics mine was merely s consideration in terms of action economy.

I mean, given the fact I would be using 1 action to sustain a spell ( or raise shield before that ), would athletic be the right choice?

I was considering changing attitude towards it. So move on from athetics to damage.

The "right" choice will always depend on the situation. If you want damage, athetics is obviously a bad choice. I'd personally still try to at least keep the option to use it. If push REALLY comes to shove, you can always drop your weapon and roll Athletics, of course.

Quote:

That’s why I was considering using a glaive ( deadly + forceful + reach)

Eventually with 2 cleric feats i could both increase its dmg to 1d10 and gain the shield cantrip, which will give the parry bonus from a Bo staff ( or even a block reaction).

You can't increase the damage die of the Glaive with Deadly Simpicity since it's not a simple weapon. You're stuck with a d8. So it's down to Deadly + Forceful on the Glaive vs. Trip and Parry on the Bo Staff.

Quote:
About horse companion it was mostly because by lvl 10 it would have his free action, even if I don't expend mine.

Yeah, but level 10 is a long way off. A single action of an animal companion is also often not all that impressive and the horse isn't exactly the stronget companion. Add that to the logistics problems that often come with large animals and I'd personally avoid it. I will say that I'm in general not a fan of any Anmial Companions and neither have I ever liked them. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Quote:
The extra free rune could be better. I am somehow worried about the critical specialization, because it is not a choice for polearms, which could mean that I will have to move because I set an enemy out of range.

"You can always decide not to add the critical specialization effect of your weapon." - Critical Specialization rules.

Quote:

About mercy I am not really convinced.

It is an improve mentre which doesn't give extra focus points. Also my ChariSma won't hit 18 until 15,so I would be at disadvantage in terms of countering/dispelling.

It's not super great, I admit. Still seemed like the best option on those levels. Overall, multiclassing will probably prove to be more useful.

Quote:

I was even considering to take a sorc dedication to use arcane spells true strike or haste (I say arcane because ring of wizardly doesn't work with druid clerics bards and not arcane sorc ).

With an extra action I could even consider to raise a shield while sustaining a spell )

You seem to lack the Charisma to get Sorc Dedication at 4, which would mean delayed spell access and no Breadth feat or no Master Spellcasting. I'd personally alawys try to get both if I multiclass into caster. Druid is out due to its anathema so cleric was the only real choice to get all 5 caster feats.

If you do go Sorc, I'd recommend the Occult tradition (or go bard instead). I find it combines the best spells for a melee character (stuff like true strike, haste, blur, blink, heroism).

I personally wouldn't plan a build around an uncommon item that - if it ever is encountered - might be more useful to someone else in the party. YMMV, of course.


About the glaive, I think you confuse the deific weapon with the deadly simplicity one

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=264

Quote:
Your deity’s weapon is especially powerful in your hands. When you are wielding your deity’s favored weapon, increase the damage die size of that weapon by one step. If your deity’s favored weapon is an unarmed attack (such as a fist, if you worship Irori) and its damage die is smaller than d6, instead increase its damage die size to d6.

And The cantrip shield would do the rest.

To maintain at least 1 manouver, it could be a nice trade.

The point is enemies mostly tend to be hard to shove/grap or hard to trip.

So maybe even with 1 maneuver, I wouldn't be able to trade in an efficient way ( could be easier to hit than trip ).

But it could be worth it.

About the horse you are right. Lvl 10 is far. And I couldn't br able to bring a mount inside a strutture or a dungeon.

The point is that it uses efficiently every feat i haven't planned yet.
Lvl6, 10, 16 and 20. But so does the weapon.

Good to know about the critical specialization. It is a relief.

About druid specialization, why shouldn't I be able to take it? This also mean that I couldn't take barbarian spec too because of anathema?

However, It is better arcane over occult because of ring of wizardly. To have 3 lvl 3 spells would mean 3 haste by lvl 10/12.

Occult on the other hand would mean heroism. I would go dormire occult but that stupid ring is designed only for arcane users.

About investing into full spellcasting, I could do that. But not before lvl 16.

I could eventually pick up sorcerer dedication by lvl 6 to starting increase arcana, then sacrifice blade of Justice for expert spellcasting, but Somehow I like that attack. Even if it costs 2 actions.

Ps: between mercy upgrades and a caster dedication I would stick with a caster dedication.


K1 wrote:

About the glaive, I think you confuse the deific weapon with the deadly simplicity one

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=264

Deadly Simlicity still has the line "Prerequisites deity with a simple favored weapon, trained with your deity’s favored weapon"

So you couldn't even take the feat in the first place if you deity's weapon is a glaive.

Quote:

The point is enemies mostly tend to be hard to shove/grap or hard to trip.

So maybe even with 1 maneuver, I wouldn't be able to trade in an efficient way ( could be easier to hit than trip ).

But it could be worth it.

To be honest, I haven't played enoguh PF2 to really judge the usefulness of maneuvers. Hitting the enemy might often be easier but the maneuver can also be easier.

Take an ogre boss as example. His AC is 25, his reflex DC vs. Trip/Disarm is only 22. Athletics also scales quite a bit faster than your weapon proficiency, including going up to legendary.

Quote:

About the horse you are right. Lvl 10 is far. And I couldn't br able to bring a mount inside a strutture or a dungeon.

The point is that it uses efficiently every feat i haven't planned yet.
Lvl6, 10, 16 and 20. But so does the weapon.

Getting 5 feats for a mount you might not be able to use all the time seems like a pretty big investment.

Quote:
About druid specialization, why shouldn't I be able to take it? This also mean that I couldn't take barbarian spec too because of anathema?

You can get it, but Druids can't use metal armor and your low dex suggests you use full plate. The dedication does say you become bound by your order's anathema. It's up for debate whether the no metal stuff is part of the Order's anathema. I'd personally say yes, but the rules aren't very clear.

But even without the anathema, I'd say Primal is probably the least attractive tradition if you want to add buffs to a martial class.

You could get Barbarian Dedication but Rage and Sustaining a spell don't work together.

Quote:

However, It is better arcane over occult because of ring of wizardly. To have 3 lvl 3 spells would mean 3 haste by lvl 10/12.

Occult on the other hand would mean heroism. I would go dormire occult but that stupid ring is designed only for arcane users.

As I said I wouldn't focus on a single item (which you may or may not get). But arcane isn't bad, even without the ring, though. So it probably doesn't hurt to take it.

Quote:
About investing into full spellcasting, I could do that. But not before lvl 16.

I actually don't think this is bad. At least you instantly get the full benefits of the Expert casting feat.

Quote:
I could eventually pick up sorcerer dedication by lvl 6 to starting increase arcana, then sacrifice blade of Justice for expert spellcasting, but Somehow I like that attack. Even if it costs 2 actions.

That still leaves you with a questionable feat choice at level 4, though. And as mentioned if you don't want to sacrifice BoJ, you'd have to sacrifice Breadth or Master Spellcasting.

Any chance you can go with Cleric dedication starting level 4 so you can provide Heroism for yourself and have someone else cast Haste on you as needed?

Quote:
Ps: between mercy upgrades and a caster dedication I would stick with a caster dedication.

Agreed. I was looking for single class feats first and foremost. It's a shame that Multiclassing is often the best solution simply because some classes have some really poor feat choices.


Oh rats. Didn't read the prereq for deadly semplicity, sorry.

Guess I am done with companion and arbarian or druid multiclass then.

About athletics, since I am lvl 2, I think I will take the guisarme and try it ( the only diff between it and a glaive would be the lower dmg on critical hits ) for both maneuvers and attacks.

As for the cleric dedication, guess I could. I still have doubts about protection sphere, because at first I read the heightened from lvl 3 instead of lvl 11.

Which means I was considering 6 dmg reduction from everything by lvl 8 instead of 3.

Since our group is composed by a fighter, Wild order druid, me, wizard and occult sorc, I won't be the target of heroism or haste, Unless aoe haste I guess.

I am going to make some cleric dedication setups.


Here's a thought: Bard dedication for spellcasting. And you can pick up Inspire Defense at 8th level instead of the advanced domain. Much less powerful for resistance, but it does come with an AC and save bonus and has a much larger radius. And you can use it or not, no need to sustain it over consecutive rounds. If you get Lingering Compostition, it might solve your action economy problem.

edit: Doesn't work out quite as weil if you cant get bard dedicstion at Level 2. Your Charisma is frustratingly low and I keep forgetting it.


The problem is that inspire defense is an advanced muse talent.

So, given my 12 char, If I start by lvl 6 with dedication, Basic spellcasting lvl 8, Basic muse lvl 10, advanced muse lvl 12, expert spellcasting lvl 16 master lvl 18.

Eventually, I could switch Basic spellcasting with Basic muse, in order to unlock inspire defense by 10.


Yeah, I noticed that too late. See the edit on my previous post.

I was thinking

2- dedication
4- basic whisper: multifarious muse to get lingering
6- basic spellcasting
8- advanced muse: inspire defense.

Then just go with your build and fill the blanks with the rest of the bard spellcaster feats.


K1, I follow your posts on Champions closely. I've completed one session of AoA with my Champion, and I find my questions frequently mirror yours.

My Champion is a Goblin Redeemer, planning to take the Bard dedication. I'm most interested in the Bard spells, but will likely take Inspire Courage eventually.

I gave up stressing about weapons, and settled on a Maul. My Goblin has the Tailed heritage, and the Farmer background. The latter gives him Athletics Assurance, and the former some nice tripping abilities (after a couple feats).

Maul shoves. Tail trips. Bard spells protect/buff. But mostly maul hits hard. (Champion Stats S18, D12, C14, I10, W10, CH14).


Sapient wrote:

K1, I follow your posts on Champions closely. I've completed one session of AoA with my Champion, and I find my questions frequently mirror yours.

My Champion is a Goblin Redeemer, planning to take the Bard dedication. I'm most interested in the Bard spells, but will likely take Inspire Courage eventually.

I gave up stressing about weapons, and settled on a Maul. My Goblin has the Tailed heritage, and the Farmer background. The latter gives him Athletics Assurance, and the former some nice tripping abilities (after a couple feats).

Maul shoves. Tail trips. Bard spells protect/buff. But mostly maul hits hard. (Champion Stats S18, D12, C14, I10, W10, CH14).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Sapient.

It is good to know that I am not alone.

I also understand that sometimes it is a pain to read me, because I tend to put my thoughts more in a complaint form than a constructive dialogue. Ahah.

I can't find the goblin Tailed heritage on nethys, nor on the p2e app.

Can you tell me someting more about it?

However a Goblin is cool. You could eventually have the Wolf as companion.

Do you consider to take it?
I definitely would!

I happened to make half of the first as a Redeemer, even if I was more a lawful ( because of bg, and attitude ), and then my dm allowed me to move to paladin.

Best choice ever.
It is what a champion should be ( consider to try it, if you can ).

As a paladin, things are slightly different than a Redeemer. This path works better with reach weapons,to use the reaction in the most efficient way.


K1 wrote:


Thanks for sharing your thoughts Sapient.
It is good to know that I am not alone.

I also understand that sometimes it is a pain to read me, because I tend to put my thoughts more in a complaint form than a constructive dialogue. Ahah.

I can't find the goblin Tailed heritage on nethys, nor on the p2e app.

Can you tell me someting more about it?

However a Goblin is cool. You could eventually have the Wolf as companion.

Do you consider to take it?
I definitely would!

I happened to make half of the first as a Redeemer, even if I was more a lawful ( because of bg, and attitude ), and then my dm allowed me to move to paladin.

Best choice ever.
It is what a champion should be ( consider to try it, if you can ).

As a paladin, things are slightly different than a Redeemer. This path works better with reach weapons,to use the reaction in the most efficient way.

The Tailed Goblin Heritage is from the Lost Omens Character Guide. It has a level 4(?) feat that allows you to target up to two creatures for Trip, and successes become Critical Successes. There is another Reach polearm in that book you may want to consider. I think it is a 1d8, deadly d8, reach, sweep, trip. I don't have access to the book right now.

I do like the idea of riding a wolf, but my character will be taking Divine Ally Blade, and I don't think there will be room for a second Divine Ally. But I'm remaining flexible, so who knows?

I do think the Paladin is better mechanically (at least in general), and yes, go for the reach weapons as a Paladin. Redeemer fits my character better, and the reaction ability is still pretty good. Plus, it helps puts the breaks on any murderhoboing the group may want to do.


That heritage is awesome.

Not only let you save 1 action, but even 1 turn ( because of the map on 2 Normal trio attacks ).

Really Impressive.


K1 wrote:

That heritage is awesome.

Not only let you save 1 action, but even 1 turn ( because of the map on 2 Normal trio attacks ).

Really Impressive.

I don't really know how the math will turn out for tripping, but I think for weaker opponents, Trip via Athletics with the Assurance feat should be an OK way to use a third action, as MAP would not apply (as Assurance does not apply any bonuses or penalties).

The Heritage also allows you to climb and trip without the use of hands. Again, I don't know how much climb-fighting will happen, but I like the idea of hanging there swinging a 2-handed weapon.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't like to spoiler me the DCs, but mostly if the target is big, i tend to trip and avoid shove/grab.

If the target is agile and fast instead, I tend to assume its Fortitude st is lower than reflex.

About using Assurance or not it'it's a bet.

As far as I can recall, there's a talisman for +2 shove.

Ps: a out the Math is simply because you can use the base modifier for 2 trips ( not sure if you will be using 1 extra action of it is free ).

Normally you would expend 2 action and have to wait for a new turn, to have no map.


K1 wrote:


I happened to make half of the first as a Redeemer, even if I was more a lawful ( because of bg, and attitude ), and then my dm allowed me to move to paladin.

Best choice ever.
It is what a champion should be ( consider to try it, if you can ).

After the Errata today moved one more feat to the Paladins only, I'm reconsidering Redeemer. We've had some liberty to change, but we just hit level 2, and we are locked into what we bring to the next game.

It seems that to really hit evil creatures hard, you have to go Paladin. And the different is significant. Liberator and Redeemer just don't get equivalently powerful or interesting options.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sapient wrote:
K1 wrote:


I happened to make half of the first as a Redeemer, even if I was more a lawful ( because of bg, and attitude ), and then my dm allowed me to move to paladin.

Best choice ever.
It is what a champion should be ( consider to try it, if you can ).

After the Errata today moved one more feat to the Paladins only, I'm reconsidering Redeemer. We've had some liberty to change, but we just hit level 2, and we are locked into what we bring to the next game.

It seems that to really hit evil creatures hard, you have to go Paladin. And the different is significant. Liberator and Redeemer just don't get equivalently powerful or interesting options.

Which feat got moved not seeing anything about that in the errata?


Emeric Tusan wrote:


Which feat got moved not seeing anything about that in the errata?

Instrument of zeal in the table at the end. It now only works with Paladin abilities.

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