Unlimited Signature Spells


Rules Discussion


rulebook wrote:
All of your spells are signature spells. That means that if you know a spell, you can heighten it freely by casting it from a higher-level spell slot, up to the maximum level of spell you can cast. You can similarly cast any of its lower-level versions without learning them separately.

The summoner has an interesting ability. As one of the classes which profits most from spontaneous Cha caster archetypes, what does this mean for the spells of the archetype? Compared with Dangerous sorcery which works for all spells including archetypes, or the Magus who can use any spells to spellstrike, this is written similarly to allow with any spell of the character.

Thoughts?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm pretty sure all spontaneous casting archetypes already make all the granted spells signature.


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You mean a summoner picking other caster archetypes?

That's clearly defined in the spellcasting archetypes subsection:

Quote:
All spell slots you gain from spellcasting archetypes are subject to the restrictions within the archetype.

and from Basic Spellcasting:

Quote:
At 6th level, they grant you a 2nd-rank spell slot, and if you have a spell repertoire, you can select one spell from your repertoire as a signature spell.

From expert spellcasting:

Quote:
If you have a spell repertoire, you can select a second spell from your repertoire as a signature spell.

and finally from Master spellcasting:

Quote:
If you have a spell repertoire, you can select a third spell from your repertoire as a signature spell.

So, regardless what Summoner has as an ability, the slots gained from a spellcasting archetype are bound by the limitations in said archetypes, including the fact that you can only reach up to 3 signature spells from one of them at Master Spellcasting.

Captain Morgan wrote:
I'm pretty sure all spontaneous casting archetypes already make all the granted spells signature.

no they don't.


shroudb wrote:

You mean a summoner picking other caster archetypes?

Yes

shroudb wrote:


That's clearly defined in the spellcasting archetypes subsection:

Quote:
All spell slots you gain from spellcasting archetypes are subject to the restrictions within the archetype.

and from Basic Spellcasting:

Quote:
At 6th level, they grant you a 2nd-rank spell slot, and if you have a spell repertoire, you can select one spell from your repertoire as a signature spell.

So this can be read as the general rule of the archetype spellcasting is overruled by the specific summoner ability....


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Falco271 wrote:
shroudb wrote:

You mean a summoner picking other caster archetypes?

Yes

shroudb wrote:


That's clearly defined in the spellcasting archetypes subsection:

Quote:
All spell slots you gain from spellcasting archetypes are subject to the restrictions within the archetype.

and from Basic Spellcasting:

Quote:
At 6th level, they grant you a 2nd-rank spell slot, and if you have a spell repertoire, you can select one spell from your repertoire as a signature spell.
So this can be read as the general rule of the archetype spellcasting is overruled by the specific summoner ability....

it's the other way around actually.

Nothing in the summoner says that it overides anything, it's just the general summoner spellcsting feature that you are invoking, while the archetype specifically say that they have restrictions on spellcasting.

So the general rule of summoner is getting overidden by the specific rule of archetypes.

to put it simply:
nothing in the summoner has either permissive or restrictinve language, it's just a general rule. while archetypes have restricting language, hence specific.


Above question was Unlimited signature spells with an archetype.

So how would it work with a Dual class character, for example a Summoner/ Sorceror?


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Dual Class is a variant rule - a Paizo published houserule/homebrew. The GM needs to be on top of handling balance concerns like this. Same as any other houserule/homebrew that they are using.

Personally, I would say it is too good to be true for a Dual Class Summoner/Sorcerer to get all of their Sorcerer spells as Signature spells. That is drastically overpowered.


I do not see how it would not apply, it just says all your spells. Which the Summoner Unlimited Signature would overwrites the rule for Archetypes as Wizard Thesis can infact be used on Archetype slots, as there is no rule from Paizo and it just says spell slots/spells. So I'd allow it as a GM.

Sovereign Court

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Rules as written you should handle it as follows;

PC1 p. 399 wrote:

Ambiguous Rules

Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one
version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems
to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t
work as intended, work with your group to find a good
solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

The line "All of your spells are signature spells." can be interpreted in multiple ways. It can be understood as talking about absolutely all your spells, doesn't matter where they come from. Or it can be understood as talking about all your spells from this class, because that's where the text is.

Some people are going to be convinced one interpretation is obviously correct, and other people are going to be convinced that the only reasonable way to read it is the other way.

I think it's more reasonable to read each class's description of how it's spellcasting works as focusing only on the spellcasting you get from that class. Otherwise you'd also get weird conflicts if for example you were a bard with a wizard archetype, because the bard's Heightening rules say:

PC1 p. 96 wrote:

Heightening Spells

When you get spell slots of 2nd rank and higher, you
can fill those slots with stronger versions of lower-rank
spells. This increases the spell’s rank, heightening it
to match the spell slot. You must have a spell in your
spell repertoire at the rank you want to cast in order
to heighten it to that rank.
Many spells have specific
improvements when they are heightened to certain ranks
(page 297). The signature spells class feature lets you
heighten certain spells freely.

Suppose you took Basic Wizard Spellcasting and were level 8. And you'd learned Hydraulic Push, normally a rank 1 arcane spell. It's not in your repertoire (since wizards don't use repertoires, they use spellbooks). Does that mean that because you're also a bard, you can't prepare it as rank 3 wizard spell anymore? But if you were a fighter/wizard instead of a bard/wizard, that you'd be fine? That would be ridiculous, right?

But isn't that pretty much the same kind of logic as wanting to use that line from the summoner for other sources of spells?


Ascalaphus wrote:
I think it's more reasonable to read each class's description of how it's spellcasting works as focusing only on the spellcasting you get from that class. Otherwise you'd also get weird conflicts if for example you were a bard with a wizard archetype, because the bard's Heightening rules say

Very good point. But what do we do with Dangerous Sorcery? And I really want that spellshape feats were available for everything for example.


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Errenor wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
I think it's more reasonable to read each class's description of how it's spellcasting works as focusing only on the spellcasting you get from that class. Otherwise you'd also get weird conflicts if for example you were a bard with a wizard archetype, because the bard's Heightening rules say
Very good point. But what do we do with Dangerous Sorcery? And I really want that spellshape feats were available for everything for example.

I feel there's a big difference between Class Features and Class Feats. Especially when you try to modify a base feature using a different base feature.

The difference with mingling two class specific Features, like blending the rules of one class' spell reservoir with another class' spell reservoir is much more egregious compared to using a feat gained from one class for something outside of said class.


shroudb wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
I think it's more reasonable to read each class's description of how it's spellcasting works as focusing only on the spellcasting you get from that class. Otherwise you'd also get weird conflicts if for example you were a bard with a wizard archetype, because the bard's Heightening rules say
Very good point. But what do we do with Dangerous Sorcery? And I really want that spellshape feats were available for everything for example.

I feel there's a big difference between Class Features and Class Feats. Especially when you try to modify a base feature using a different base feature.

The difference with mingling two class specific Features, like blending the rules of one class' spell reservoir with another class' spell reservoir is much more egregious compared to using a feat gained from one class for something outside of said class.

Actually, that's another good point! Maybe it would actually work as a boundary between universal things and class-specific? So, Dangerous Sorcery and spellshapes work, but not all-signatures (and that is for sure) and spell blending.


shroudb wrote:
I feel there's a big difference between Class Features and Class Feats. Especially when you try to modify a base feature using a different base feature.

Yes, that feels like a good place to put the distinction.

If a character gets Dangerous Sorcery from Sorcerer Archetype, it should definitely apply to all of their base class's spells. Dual Class shouldn't change that.

But a Dual Class Occult Sorcerer/Psychic shouldn't be treating all of their Occult Sorcerer spells as though they are cast using Psychic Spellcasting with the spellcasting component substitution for all of them.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Suppose you took Basic Wizard Spellcasting and were level 8. And you'd learned Hydraulic Push, normally a rank 1 arcane spell. It's not in your repertoire (since wizards don't use repertoires, they use spellbooks). Does that mean that because you're also a bard, you can't prepare it as rank 3 wizard spell anymore? But if you were a fighter/wizard instead of a bard/wizard, that you'd be fine? That would be ridiculous, right?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the problem. Archetype spellcasting doen't prevent you from doing normal class stuff. So if you have it in your Bard repetoire, you can prepare it as a Bard even after you pick up wizard archetype. But if you don't have it in your repertoire, then correct, taking it as a 1st rank Wizard spell using your wizard archetype doesn't let you cast it at Rank 3 using the rules for Bard magic.

You can pay with cash. You can pay with Discover and get 1% cash back on your purchase. But having both in your wallet doesn't let you pay using cash and then get 1% cash back on your purchase. They are different systems of doing the same "pay for stuff" action, and they each follow their own rules.


Easl wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Suppose you took Basic Wizard Spellcasting and were level 8. And you'd learned Hydraulic Push, normally a rank 1 arcane spell. It's not in your repertoire (since wizards don't use repertoires, they use spellbooks). Does that mean that because you're also a bard, you can't prepare it as rank 3 wizard spell anymore? But if you were a fighter/wizard instead of a bard/wizard, that you'd be fine? That would be ridiculous, right?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the problem. Archetype spellcasting doen't prevent you from doing normal class stuff. So if you have it in your Bard repetoire, you can prepare it as a Bard even after you pick up wizard archetype. But if you don't have it in your repertoire, then correct, taking it as a 1st rank Wizard spell using your wizard archetype doesn't let you cast it at Rank 3 using the rules for Bard magic.

You can pay with cash. You can pay with Discover and get 1% cash back on your purchase. But having both in your wallet doesn't let you pay using cash and then get 1% cash back on your purchase. They are different systems of doing the same "pay for stuff" action, and they each follow their own rules.

The problem is that both the limitations of spontaneous spellcasting (you have to have the spell in the level you want to cast it) and what the OP is talking about in signature spells, and whatever else interaction with Base class features like an arcane thesis only refer to "spell slots". Not "Bard Spell slots", not "Wizard spell slots", not "Summoner spell slots", just plain "spell slots".

So, the conudrum posed by Ascalaphus is "if you say that because it says simply "spell slots" in Signature spells for Summoner, and that allows you to cast all spells from all classes using this language there, then doesn't the opposite also stands? So if you were originaly a prepared caster, now you are handicapped because your archetype only says "spell slots" as well"

Sovereign Court

Easl wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Suppose you took Basic Wizard Spellcasting and were level 8. And you'd learned Hydraulic Push, normally a rank 1 arcane spell. It's not in your repertoire (since wizards don't use repertoires, they use spellbooks). Does that mean that because you're also a bard, you can't prepare it as rank 3 wizard spell anymore? But if you were a fighter/wizard instead of a bard/wizard, that you'd be fine? That would be ridiculous, right?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the problem. Archetype spellcasting doen't prevent you from doing normal class stuff. So if you have it in your Bard repetoire, you can prepare it as a Bard even after you pick up wizard archetype. But if you don't have it in your repertoire, then correct, taking it as a 1st rank Wizard spell using your wizard archetype doesn't let you cast it at Rank 3 using the rules for Bard magic.

You can pay with cash. You can pay with Discover and get 1% cash back on your purchase. But having both in your wallet doesn't let you pay using cash and then get 1% cash back on your purchase. They are different systems of doing the same "pay for stuff" action, and they each follow their own rules.

We're not actually disagreeing with each other I think.

I was trying to show that the OP's reading was too broad, and that it leads to weird situations.

Basically, they were asking if they'd get the cashback on a cash purchase if they had the Discover card in their pocket because the phrasing on the Discover card didn't explicitly say it was only for purchases made with that card.

To which my answer was (continuing your analogy): suppose you're on vacation somewhere and they don't want to take your Discover card there. Now you suddenly also can't pay with cash anymore because you have a Discover card in your wallet. But someone who didn't have a Discover card would be able to pay just fine. And wouldn't that be ridiculous?


Basically there is no lines defining RAW vs RAI. One can argue that it is meant for meant for each class but then I believe only Wizard for Arcane Thesis and Summoner Unlimited Signature Spells have this wording. However I am a bit misleading because there is a 3rd class that has such an odd wording. Sorcerer and blood-magic, if you were to grab additional Spell-slots and cast through your blood-line magic not with your Sorcerer slots would Blood-Magic not still trigger?

If you can trigger Blood-magic using none Sorcerer Spell Slots then any time the Rules list out the word Spells or Cast from a Spell Slot, it should apply because very few GMs will go, Hmmm, no you can cast Firebvall with Druid Slots but it won't trigger Elemental Bloodline Bloodmagic.

So if we take feats are overriding features in priority that still doesn't change anything. Dangerous Sorcery and Spellshape like Cast down/Sao life still function as an Archetype Cleric. So what why would my hyper unique Class Feat Rule not trump the more broadly defined rule for Archetypes that have Spell-Slots? Since it is it's own ability which goes with Summoner's Spell Casting feature but yet was giving it's own name and block and level of which you gain it, in essence making it a unique class feature not tied to Spell Casting just there to enhance your Spell Casting.

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