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So reading the rules seem to suggest that if you want an item an item bonus to AC (and those sweet runes) you must wear enchanted adventurer's clothing or bracers. Both impose a Max bonus to AC of +5.
This isn't really an issue until you get your apex item and/or reach level 20, in which case you can get up to +7 DEX.
At this point a fighter archer might as well be wearing heavy armor to enjoy armor specialization and have an extra point of AC.
Am I missing something?
Humbly,
Yawar
So let's all hope for some runed wizard robes and start cosplaying then.
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"they did it for structural math reason" -> "it definitely feels arbitrary" -> ...????
i mean, obviously it is a change in this edition that archers nearly always want heavy armor esp. if they meet STR rating
(which would be true at low-mid levels anyways, even without "soft DEX cap" with item bonuses)
but i don't see anything wrong with that, or why basic stats should necessarily negate things like fundamental niche of armor.
many/most STR builds end up investing in DEX just for ranged/reflex (beyond armor DEX cap) as mandatory 4th stat boost (STR CON WIS DEX)
so the max DEX archer also wearing Heavy (esp. onnce they meet STR req) isn't some incoherent anomaly,
it's just Heavy armor working as it is supposed to in this system, as the best option for given armor proficiency tier.
(as well as Med/Heavy being necessary to utilize Armor Specialization effect for those classes who gain it)
to your later post's point (or not?), the niche of no/lesser armors (besides limited proficiency) seems to be in type-specific runes,
specifically 'unarmored' and 'light armor' specific runes whose effects are desirable to particular characters.
(shadow and invisibility so far with light, but obviously no inherent limit to how that is developed)
but in terms of base AC supremacy, as well as damage mitigation via Fortification and Armor Spec, Heavy rules there, no question.
personally, i like the new dynamic, i don't see anything illogical or conflicting about an archer wearing heavy for best AC.
it also is implicit in the new system balance, with probably the majority of characters able to put 1/4 boosts in DEX,
and as i said, even without "soft cap w/ item bonus", you would see archers doing this as low-mid levels anyways.
So let's all hope for some runed wizard robes and start cosplaying then.
Wizard robes with runes already exist. (Robe of the Archmagi) But they are Explorer's Clothing so they also have the +5 Dex limit.
Armor usage is completely about capping out your dex unless you get specialization, which is champion and fighter only.
Any class except Fighter and Champion will want to go with the lightest armor they can that they can still reach the dex cap.
Armor usage is completely about capping out your dex unless you get specialization, which is champion and fighter only.
Any class except Fighter and Champion will want to go with the lightest armor they can that they can still reach the dex cap.
Well, depends on magic armours. The extra actions are worth it imo.
I feel like a lot of tweaking to the feel of armor, as well as the balance, is still available in future runes and items.
For instance, a reflavored armor potency rune that instead increases the Dex cap would be thematically appropriate for high dex characters but have little mechanical difference (especially if the rune still takes up the item bonus to AC somehow).
A specific armor type, like a belt, that lets you attach armor runes could also appear. It could also say "Wearing this item prevents your from benefiting from item bonuses to AC" and be done.
If we find that the cost to get into heavier armor (feats, class features, strength rating, etc) is too hefty then new desirable heavy armor runes can be made.
Other specific armors which appeal to certain archetypal characters might also be introduced. For example, a leather armor that gives bonuses to sneak attacking. These could help people make thematic choices without purely worrying about getting the lightest armor their dex can support.
Well, depends on magic armours. The extra actions are worth it imo.Armor usage is completely about capping out your dex unless you get specialization, which is champion and fighter only.
Any class except Fighter and Champion will want to go with the lightest armor they can that they can still reach the dex cap.
Can you provide examples? I must admit I haven't looked extensively at any specific magic armor options, but the few I did look at didn't seem that interesting to me.
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It takes a lot of investment to get a +5 DEX bonus, and a lot more to get a +6 bonus. This really seems like a non-issue to me.
And the idea that a guy in heavy armor can actually have a higher total AC than the best possible DEX-maxxing character doesn't disturb my acceptance of the game paradigm.
YMMV.
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Any class except Fighter and Champion will want to go with the lightest armor they can that they can still reach the dex cap.
I mean, it's still worthwhile considering heavy armor if you get scaled proficiency with it because it has a higher total AC cap. Most classes don't get that and getting full proficiency is kinda tricky, but if you do for whatever reason it's worthwhile.
I mean, it's still worthwhile considering heavy armor if you get scaled proficiency with it because it has a higher total AC cap. Most classes don't get that and getting full proficiency is kinda tricky, but if you do for whatever reason it's worthwhile.
Any class except Fighter and Champion will want to go with the lightest armor they can that they can still reach the dex cap.
This makes Hellknight Signifier very nice for casters, the dedication has a feat that grants expert prof in Heavy armor if you have it in any other armor/defense. So by lvl 13 any Hellknight Caster can be rocking plate armor.
I mean, it's still worthwhile considering heavy armor if you get scaled proficiency with it because it has a higher total AC cap. Most classes don't get that and getting full proficiency is kinda tricky, but if you do for whatever reason it's worthwhile.
Any class except Fighter and Champion will want to go with the lightest armor they can that they can still reach the dex cap.
I will grant the caveat that if you get scaling proficiency with heavy armor then it can be worth, as it has a higher max overall AC.
Currently there are no base classes that offer that, except for fighter and champion.
I believe there is at least one prestige archetype that offers it.
I mean, a rogue or ranger or barbarian with the same AC as a fighter doesn't seem like nonsense to me.
Now, I'm not accounting for PF2 mechanics, which given that they pegged the fighter as having master heavy armor and in order for that to mean something that have to limit everyone else who doesn't have that.
What I mean is that in the PF1 flavor, armor wasn't that big a deal for a fighter. They got armor training, which was largely worth ignoring unless you were an archer fighter.
Fighters always had good Ac, but setting the limits based off of what they can do is a new thing. In PF1 other characters had better methods to achieve better AC than the fighter.
Now, this isn't to say that I actually care that much. But it is a new paradigm for a new edition.
One that I'm not bothered by, but I also wouldn't go so far as to say that it's "non-sense" that a rogue, ranger, or barbarian could have equal or higher AC.
This makes Hellknight Signifier very nice for casters, the dedication has a feat that grants expert prof in Heavy armor if you have it in any other armor/defense. So by lvl 13 any Hellknight Caster can be rocking plate armor.A million times no! Hellknight Signifier requires Hellknight Armiger dedication, meaning you need to spend at least 3 feats prior to taking the entry feat for it, then another feat for the Expertise at level 12... 5 feats for expert proficiency in heavy armor is a *huge* tax. If you're going to go that route anyways, sure, otherwise, we're still left with Champion Dedication (2 feats).
EDIT: I'm wrong, you still need Armiger, but that lets you select Signifier without additional feats, so it's only a 3 feat tax. Still a lot, but not nearly as bad.
It's not a "tax" Armiger gives mental resistance 1+Hellknight feats (so 4 after the feats) and most likely expert in intimidation.
Signifer gets you +1 to Deception when lying, +1 intimidation, +1 to Deception DC vs Sense Motive, Expert in another skill you're trained in and 1 of the casting tradition skills.
Then you take Armor Expertise, which gets the +1 AC.
None of those are "taxes" they give pretty good bonuses by themselves along the way to getting Armor Expertise.
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Have to agree with tivadar. A feat doesn't have to be completely terrible to feel like a tax.
And, opinions on the Dedication feats themselves aside, there's unequivocally a pretty taxlike quality to all of the general feats you have to use to buy in.
A wizard, sorcerer or cloistered cleric is spending two general feats on light and medium armor proficiency that do literally nothing for them but help them qualify for the feat that lets them get heavy armor proficiency that lets them qualify for armiger that lets them qualify for signifer that lets them qualify for the feat that gives them expert armor.
At least Champion dedication gets you there in only two feats, rather than six.
Dex users
- +7 reflex saving throws
- comfortable armor ( Explorer clothes )
- +7 stealth, acrobatics and Thievery
- eventually, +7 on initiative
- +7 hit ranged and finesse weaponsSTR users
- +7 flat dmg with melee weapons
- +7 hit melee weapons
- +7 athletics
- extra bulkThe reason why many dex based classes are not allowed to get armor is pretty obvious.
Even if in some versions dex builds could have been better than any other build.
The initiative and skill bonuses assume that the character is using stealth as their exploration activity and are interested in dex based skills which are not necessarily true.
It's not nearly as lopsided a comparison as you're painting it.
The main advantage is that dex boosts a save while strength doesn't.
Am I missing something that let's you get +7?
I though +6 was the cap, and that was only achievable at level 20. (so just 1 level of explorer's cloths "restriction").
Also, Full Plate gives flat 3 to reflex saves. So the difference is not huge.
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Am I missing something that let's you get +7?
I though +6 was the cap, and that was only achievable at level 20. (so just 1 level of explorer's cloths "restriction").
Also, Full Plate gives flat 3 to reflex saves. So the difference is not huge.
Apex item.This is not a problem until very high level, but it feels arbitrary.
STR users get to boost their DCs without concern and dump DEX or give minimal investment. While non rogues still need to boost STR for damage.
Humbly,
Yawar
Dex users
- +7 reflex saving throws
- comfortable armor ( Explorer clothes )
- +7 stealth, acrobatics and Thievery
- eventually, +7 on initiative
- +7 hit ranged and finesse weaponsSTR users
- +7 flat dmg with melee weapons
- +7 hit melee weapons
- +7 athletics
- extra bulkThe reason why many dex based classes are not allowed to get armor is pretty obvious.
Even if in some versions dex builds could have been better than any other build.
The initiative and skill bonuses assume that the character is using stealth as their exploration activity and are interested in dex based skills which are not necessarily true.
It's not nearly as lopsided a comparison as you're painting it.
The main advantage is that dex boosts a save while strength doesn't.
That is your personal point.
If you had added something else I forgot, that would have then made room for a more interesting discussion.
By saying "3 skills are situational, as ranged attacks. What only counts is the ST" you are not being objective.
While of course having +7 on a St, if you Plan not to increase reflex above 10, is definitely godlike.
I did add something, the observation that your putting more importance on things than is really credible. Not every character is going to want those skills. Many people probably wouldn't bother to get those skills beyond trained.
I never said ranged attacks were situational, they are the main thing to go with dex besides AC and saves.
Heavy armor lets you ignore dex if you choose. But in this edition of Pathfinder given the ability to increase 4 stats at level up, most people would be better off sacrificing either int/wis/cha than sacrificing .
Fighters actually have it easy. Str/Dex/Con/Wis is all they need. Champions are the one class that have a problem Because they need Cha, but they might also want Wis, Str, Con, and Dex (except they can't really afford Dex and Wis so they have to choose which they prefer).
If you are a martial character you're probably going to want a mixture of str and dex anyways, for both melee and ranged attacks. Of course, for fighters and champions they might forgo dex and use thrown weapons and just ignore their reflex save.
You have an extra +2 from the magic item.
If your stat is below 18, the item raise it to 18. If it is 18 or higher, it gives you +2 on that stat.
However, clothes are not necessarily a good thing. Imagine a dragon leather armor which gives the same clothes benefits plus resistance.
Or eventually, damage reduction.
Plate reflex bonus is a +3 only vs damaging effects.
By high lvls a 15k magic items will set your dex to 18, giving 1 more. So it doesn't really count the whole time.
Also, if you want to become fighter you will have to hit 14 dex, so 1 more increment is not an issue.
"You can benefit from only one apex item at a time". So if you take the +2 Str, you can't get the 18 Dex. (Unless you pump it directly).
Also, bulwark says "On Reflex saves to avoid a damaging effect, such as a fireball, you add a +3 modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier." Doesn't seem to be a choice to use the 18 Dex even if you had it.
Dude, there are 3 kind of heavy armor and only 1 with bulkwar.
Thanks, no idea how I missed that.