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Elf, Gnome and Halfling make bad barbarians because of their ability flaws. Avoid them.
Dwarf has good base stats (high HP, darkvision), but I personally find most of their ancestry feats lacking.
That leaves you basically with Human, including Half-Orc and Half-Elf. Both can get Darkvision via ancestry feats, if you want. Half-Orcs have the pretty powerful Orc Superstition -> Pervasive Superstition feats. Half-Elves have very easy access to a Dedication of their choice via Multitalented, can pick up a cantrip via Otherworldly Magic and can increase their speed via Nimble Elf. In general, I think the Half-Humans are the strongest ancestries currrently in the game, so when in doubt, pick one of those.
As for stats, max out your Strength, get Dex at least to 12 (for Breastplate) and divide the rest between Con and Wis. I'd start with someting like 18, 12, 14, 10, 14, 10. Switch Wis and Cha if you want Intimidation.
I think that dwarf giant instinct barbarians are excellent thematically. Also, when you change to giant size at later levels, there are a lot of options for giant sized dwarf with axe miniatures. Dwarf will also give you a great number of hit points, due to dwarf (10 hp), the ancestry feat, and toughness.
I disagree that you should avoid halfling. Yes, you will not be optimal with regards to either strength or constitution, but there is perhaps nothing cooler than a little halfling with a large greataxe that can change into a giant. And do you want optimal, or do you want fun?
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Ignoring RP potential, Goblin doesn't really have much that helps a barbarian. It also doesn't have anything that hurts a barbarian, but if you want optimized, you should probably stay clear.
For optimization, I'd definitely go half-orc.
I say gnome, just take the optional flaw to start at 18 strength. It's certainly the funniest option. Vivacious Conduit gets silly when you have real high Con.
I think dwarf feats are great for giant barbarian.
Unburdened Iron - Is really great as it can with speed penalties, this can be useful for barbarians
Boulder Roll - Great at higher levels when you grow in size. Help move bad guys from squishy characters or even push them into harmful conditions. Then you do bludgeoning damage = level + str. This would be great for a giant barbarian
Mountain's stoutness - This feat is just great for any dwarf or ancestry that takes the adopted ancestry(dwarf). You get your level in hit points and reduce the dying save needed by 1. It then gets even better if you have toughness. IT STACKS. At 9th level (when you can pick this feat) if you have this and toughness you will have gained your level x2 in hit points. Your dc for dying is reduced by 4. Pair this up with die hard and now you need dying 5 to die. 6+ to make your recovery save. You become really difficult to kill.
I feel higher level ancestry feats for the Dwarf are really good and feel it is one of the better ancestries in the game.
I think dwarf feats are great for giant barbarian.
Unburdened Iron - Is really great as it can with speed penalties, this can be useful for barbarians
A barbarian should never suffer any speed penalty from armor, so the first part is useless. The reduced speed penalty only means the dwarf is as fast as anyone else - IF the whole party happens to be slower. If not, the dwarf is still slower than any other ancestry.
The feat is only useful for heavy armor guys. For anyone else, it's just to make sure the dwarf doesn't fall behind even more when it comes to speed.
Boulder Roll - Great at higher levels when you grow in size. Help move bad guys from squishy characters or even push them into harmful conditions. Then you do bludgeoning damage = level + str. This would be great for a giant barbarian
A two action Shove that trades some damage on a fail for more limiting size restrictions. And it has the pretty situational Rock Runner as prerequisite. Not good. If you want to shove stuff around as a barbarian, pick a Maul as your weapon and/or get the Knockback feat.
Mountain's stoutness - This feat is just great for any dwarf or ancestry that takes the adopted ancestry(dwarf). You get your level in hit points and reduce the dying save needed by 1. It then gets even better if you have toughness. IT STACKS. At 9th level (when you can pick this feat) if you have this and toughness you will have gained your level x2 in hit points. Your dc for dying is reduced by 4. Pair this up with die hard and now you need dying 5 to die. 6+ to make your recovery save. You become really difficult to kill.
This is the only dwarven feat I actually consider good. But it comes rather late. And even in high level campaigns it still leaves he dwarf with 4 more ancestry feat picks to choose from a rather mediocre list.
I feel higher level ancestry feats for the Dwarf are really good and feel it is one of the better ancestries in the game.
One of them is good. The rest is situational at best.
I've just started playing a dwarven crossbow ranger. Took me forever to pick a 1st level ancestry feat because none of them is great by any means. Goblins have a similar problem, though not quite as bad. Maybe bad-ish ancestry feats are the price they pay for innate darkvision?
@Blave
Too long to quote
Unburdened Iron:
I will give that this is not as good as some others but it most definitely is a great feat to have for any class. It isn't just limited to heavy armored characters. That is very closed minded to think that way. The second ability is great in any sense. Allowing the barbarian not to take speed penalties or reduced penalties is great.
Boulder Roll:
The damage is applied if they don't get a critical success. Even if they succeed they still take the damage. This then allows you to use any weapon you want and be able to shove them back. Ok so they make the save. They still take the damage. What limiting size restrictions? As a giant barbarian you grow in size, which increases the number of creatures you can apply this to. Then shove requires you to have a free hand and is a 10th level feat. This you get at 5th. Don't have to have a free hand and deals damage even on success. I think you severely underrated this feat or didn't see the best way to use this. Knockback is good only if you use 1 handed weapons.
Mountain's stoutness:
Comes to late? Extra hit points and reduced dc for dying is too good to pass up. As a barbarian getting more an more hit points is a huge plus in any sense.
Also having Con and Wis is a great way to start the barbarian. Also picking up fleet is a great way to boost speed, as I don't really care for the majority of the general feats. Toughness, Diehard Adopted Ancestry are top of my list. Fleet is good as the pickings are meh right now. Even then Diehard I wouldn't pick as I would go with adopted ancestry then ancestral paragon to get any feat I want.
Ancient Dwarf is a really good heritage.
Also adopted ancestry (any ancestry) is great. 10 hit points is great star as well. The speed of the dwarf really isn't an issue with several ways to fix that.
I have seen more dwarven barbarians in 2E so far then any other ancestry. It isn't difficult to get intimidation as a dwarf. Or getting a decent cha score.
Unburdened Iron:The second ability is great in any sense. Allowing the barbarian not to take speed penalties or reduced penalties is great.
Except the dwarf comes with a build-in speed penalty since he starts only with 20 ft. Unburdened Iron only allows him to not become EVEN slower. It's not a bonus. It just makes sure the dwarf isn't overly punished by effects that reduce speed.
Boulder Roll:The damage is applied if they don't get a critical success. Even if they succeed they still take the damage. This then allows you to use any weapon you want and be able to shove them back. Ok so they make the save. They still take the damage.
Well, they take low-ish damage for 2 actions. And only if they think moving back 5ft will somehow hinder them.
What limiting size restrictions? As a giant barbarian you grow in size, which increases the number of creatures you can apply this to.
A normal shove can still be applied to more creatures. Up to two sizes larger than you for the small investment of a skill feat. Boulder roll only works against targets up to your size.
Growing in size requies an extra action before level 11. Being large or huge also dosn't always work due to terrain.Then shove requires you to have a free hand and is a 10th level feat.
Knockback works with any 2-handed weapon. It pushes the enemy back as if you've used Shove. You don't actually use the Shove action and thus it requires no free hand.
This you get at 5th. Don't have to have a free hand and deals damage even on success. I think you severely underrated this feat or didn't see the best way to use this.
It still requires Rock Runner which is also questionable. And moving an enemy back 5 feet for TWO actions is just not good enough in my book. The low damage (again, for two actions) is a consolation prize at best.
Knockback is good only if you use 1 handed weapons.
Nope, see above.
Mountain's stoutness: Comes to late? Extra hit points and reduced dc for dying is too good to pass up. As a barbarian getting more an more hit points is a huge plus in any sense.
Level 9 is still pretty late for the fist - and only - really good feat of an ancestry.
Also picking up fleet is a great way to boost speed, as I don't really care for the majority of the general feats. Toughness, Diehard Adopted Ancestry are top of my list. Fleet is good as the pickings are meh right now. Even then Diehard I wouldn't pick as I would go with adopted ancestry then ancestral paragon to get any feat I want.
Fleet brings the dwarf up to speed. Literally. It's another thing to make him not fall behind. Anyone else can also get it to have even greater speed.
Ancient Dwarf is a really good heritage.
Absolutely, but the Half-Orc does this better.
Also adopted ancestry (any ancestry) is great.
You shouldn't need a general feat to have access to good ancestry feats. Adopted should be a bonus, not a necessity.
10 hit points is great star as well. The speed of the dwarf really isn't an issue with several ways to fix that.
Two more HP are hardly a big bonus. The speed can be fixed but why invest resources tp fix it if you could just get another ancestry and have better speed from the get go?
I have seen more dwarven barbarians in 2E so far then any other ancestry. It isn't difficult to get intimidation as a dwarf. Or getting a decent cha score.
Seeing many doesn't mean it's optimal. And I'm not saying Dwarves are unplayable by any means. I'm currently playing one myself, as I mentioned. Their ancestry base stats are great and their heritages mostly strong. Just most of their ancestry feats are utterly disappointing.
Regarding the Orc Superstition feat, it's in no way better than the Ancient Blooded Dwarf ability. The Half Orc requires a feat, first of all, and second, that ability only gives a bonus against the triggering attack.
The Ancient Blooded Dwarf ability gives you a bonus that lasts until your next turn. It's way better, no contest.
Regarding the Orc Superstition feat, it's in no way better than the Ancient Blooded Dwarf ability. The Half Orc requires a feat, first of all, and second, that ability only gives a bonus against the triggering attack.
The Ancient Blooded Dwarf ability gives you a bonus that lasts until your next turn. It's way better, no contest.
It says "You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to the triggering saving throw and until the end of this turn."
I read it as "lasts until the turn of the triggering creature is over." If the same creature targets you twice per round with a reflex save, you would get the bonus to both rolls.
Orc Superstition says "You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your saving throw against the triggering spell or magical effect."
Note that there's no time limit. If it is an effect with repeated saves, you get the bonus every time. And Orc Superstition can become a permanent bonus with a follow up feat.
That's great but it takes two ancestry feats out of the four total you get. That's one hell of an investment. If you invest two feats into anything, it should be really good. The Dwarf requires no investment, just choose the heritage.
I do agree that for the most part, Dwarf feats are pretty lackluster though.
You get 5 ancestry feats, not 4. And you can buy another one via Ancestral Paragon. :)
And that's kinda my point. I don't mind investing Ancesrty feats to get great abilities. There's just no way I'll ever pick 5 different Dwarf ancestry feats without most of them feeling like the lesser evil among the choices instead of something I actually want.
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Without touching on the merits of any particular option, your heritage is just as much an investment as your ancestry feats. And I'd say by and large heritages are stronger than any given ancestry feat, though maybe not any two.
Half-Orcs do have a lot of stiff competition for their ancestry feats though. Lots of really good options make pervasive superstition hard to fit in.
As for the dwarf feats... They certainly aren't the best in the game but I'd be still have to think hard about which ones I am giving up to take any. The dwarven waraxe is one of the best weapons in the game, IMO, and sweep is especially good on a giant barbarian. Dwarven Lore gets you two skills trained.
Trapped hallways are a common enough staple of the genre to warrant Stonecunning and its follow up feat. Vengeful Hatred is great if you know you're gonna be fighting a lot of Giants, but it also triggers whenever you get crit, which is probably fairly often as a barbarian. Plus it is just super on brand.
I wouldn't say they have as good a list as the half orc... But honestly the half orc list is so good you'll never be able to get everything you want from it.
And of course we will have more dwarf feats soon-- probably in less than two weeks when the Lost Omens Character Guide drops.
Yeah, Dwarven Waraxe is great (and that's just Dwarven weapons in CRB), thus Dwarven Weapon Familiarity is too. I do like Stonecunning too, as well as Stonewalker (meld). IMHO Rockrunner is alot less situational than it's being panned as, pretty much any actual terrain (not vegetation, mud, ice), which is pretty common unless you refuse to leave flat land and always stay on the trail. And AFAIK it also applies to worked stone, including steep stairs. Unburdened Iron would negate Tower Shield speed penalty, but it really does need Heavy Armor to make sense, although that's completely reasonable considering Barb doesn't get Expert Medium until 13 during which General Heavy Trained can shine, and MCD:Champion or other Heavy Expert option can maintain advantage up to Level 19 I believe (and who knows if there will be options for Master Heavy or scaling it with base class). Trying to discount Mountain's Stoutness by saying "it would be nice earlier" is ridiculous, and discounts it's Dying/Recovery check function, it no more loses it's relevance at high level than Toughness does (which it synergizes with).
I believe Blave misunderstood Boulder Roll (or confused it with similar abilities), when he wrote:
Well, they take low-ish damage for 2 actions. And only if they think moving back 5ft will somehow hinder them.
Yet there is no "only if" to the ability, there is nothing optional about it's effects: The target automatically is moved (technically, the foe themself moves, so doesn't count as Shove effect), with Save only to determine degree of damage. While certainly there is some overlap with Knockback here, the advantages are: lower level, freeing Level 10 Class Feat, and it's automatic function (vs Knockback hinging on melee hit) means Boulder Roll is much more reliable, all the more so as 2nd attack (or even 3rd, with Haste), nice when you really want somebody pushed off cliff, into spell AoE, out of Flank, etc.
I don't see much in the Dwarven Waraxe that a Battleaxe or Greataxe couldn't do. Yeah, it can double as both but how often is that gonna come in handy? A barbarian will usually wield it with both hands, releasing his grip only if he needs a hand free to drink a potion or something. The versatility is nice, no doubt, but I'm not sure it's great.
Stone Cunning is decent, I'll give you that. I kind of disregarded/forgot it because my current dwarf is fighting at range and usually not in a position to spot traps before someone else triggers them. It's fine for a barbarian.
Rock Runner is situational. It can be good in certain situations but it can also hardly ever come up at all. Half of it can also be replaced with a low level skill feat which doesn't allow you to ignore some difficult terrain, but is also not limited by terrain type.
Unless you're wearing heavy armor AND are slowed by some other effect, Unburdened Iron doesn't do anything the higher speed of another ancestry wouldn't do just as well. It's an extremely situational bonus. Most of the time it serves to negate a malus at best. It would be powerful if dwarves had 25 ft speed, but they don't.
I never discounted Mountain Stoutness. It is a great feat, even at level 9. What's bugging me is the fact that there's so little to be gained before and after it when it comes to dwarven feats.
Boulder Roll says
The foe can attempt a Fortitude saving throw against your Athletics DC to block your Step. If the foe attempts this saving throw, unless it critically succeeds, it takes bludgeoning damage equal to your level plus your Strength modifier.
So yes, there is a "only if". It's a "the target takes damage only if it tries to resist the movement in the first place". So if the target doesn't want to take damage, it can just choose to be moved, which might be inconvenient, but is unlikely to hurt it most of the time.
All dwarven feats are useful IF you are in the right situation. But with the exception of Mountain Stoutness and maybe Stonecunning, I wouldn't rate any of them higher than yellow, if I were to write a guide on them. Any other ancestry comes with at least 5 really good and much less situational options. That doesn't make dwarves bad or unplayable. Just hard to recommend from an optimization perspective.
Anyway, enough derailing. I've said my part. If anyone wished to discuss dwarves further, feel free to open a new topic and I'll be happy to join you there.
Back to topic :)
thanks for the comments so far but I wonder why you think that half orc is better than human after all human can have two feats at the start
Well, other than the extra general feat the versatile human gets, the half-orc can get the same number of feats. Nothing's preventing him from taking Natural Ambition or General Training as his 1st level ancestry feat.
Since there's only a limited number of useful general feats right now, losing that one from the heritage in exchange for low-light vision and access to a bunch of half-orc ancestry feats, some of them pretty powerful, seems like a good idea.
Think of it as being a versatile human and picking Adopted Ancestry (half-orc) as your general feat from your heritage. And then you get low-light vision on top.
Using shields in any way isn't the first thing that comes to mind when someone mentions a barbarian. I honestly didn't even consider it.
You could also to level 3 to get shield block. And you can raise a shield even without it.
I'm not saying that half-orc is the best ancestry for any barbarian build, but without knowing any specifics about what you plan to do, I can only give a general answer. And in general, half-orc is the best choice.
If you're concerned with your survivability, giant instinct might not be the best choice. Animal works much better for that.
There is also the shield cantrip.
Edit: nope, takes 2 actions.
as I wrote I will play at hardcore level and it seems to me that there is not much difference between shield and ax 14.5 dmg for giant barbarian and 16.5 dmg for great ax. but the difference in survival is colossal
Don't forget that this 2 point gap in damage becomes 8 points at higher levels when striking runes come into play.
At level 6, an animal barbarian has 3 more AC than a giant barbarian. At level 7, animal can effectively swing a d12 weapon and still use a shield, which will eventually allow him to close the gap in damage and in fact deal more damage than a shield using giant barb at the highest levels.
The raging resistance of animal also seems better as physical resistance is harder to come by than elemental.
And animal can get action economy boosters like Flurry of Blows and Predator's Pounce, making it easier for him to fit raise shield into his actions each turn.
I personally don't feel like the giant's reach is enough to make up for all those things. YMMV, of course.
Doesn't the giant barb get significantly higher rage damage than the animal barbarian which would make up for the lowered damage from the weapon, the 8 lower damage I think is mostly made up by the increased rage damage
At max level, animal will have 12 extra damage from rage and 8 points more damage from weapon dice for a total of +20. The giant's rage bonus is +18.
There are of course various levels when the giant deals more but I don't think he'll ever be more than 3 points ahead.
To make most of the giant instict, you definitely need a 2-handed weapon.
then the question is whether reach and AoO is better than the increased AC that you get.
Increased AC and Flurry of Blows. And potentially Predator's Pounce, which allows you to Rage, Stride and Strike all in a single action. Can't be used on the same turn as Flurry, unfortunately, but having both probably means you can get an action advantage on pretty much every round. That sounds useful to me for a character who wants to use a shield and intimidation.
You could also go Frog instinct to have a d12 weapon for your attacks and a d6 weapon with reach for AoOs. It's not super great since the tongue is agile and only gets half damage from rage. And it doesn't work before level 7, but then again, the giant also doesn't get extra reach before level 6.
Giant Instinct is a very cool concept but poorly executed in my opinion, which is sad. Your AC is going to suck no matter what you do, so it's best to pump Constitution as high as possible and have alot of HP. I'd recommend Dwarf for the Con bonus and the 10 HP, as well as Mountain Stoutness at 9th level. Take Toughness at 3rd level.
Swing a two handed reach weapon and get Attack of Opportunity, either through Fighter Multiclass or through the Barbarian feat. Also, rather than using a shield, use Renewed Vigor starting at 8th lvl. That's a great feat that will save your life, use it every turn the way a shield user would use the Raise a Shield action.
Basically the way to optimize Giant Barb is to pump out as much damage as possible, use reach to it's fullest advantage, and build your character to absorb as much damage as possible without going down. Your AC will suck, so HP and temporary HP are your best defense.
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I just want to clarify a point.
Your AC isn't that bad. Compared to a non-shield using non-heavy armor user which otherwise has max AC, you will be 2 points behind.
Rage is -1 and Clumsy condition is another -1. That's it.
It's not great, but it's not world shakingly bad either.
Matter of perspective I guess, cause that seems awfully low to me.
-2 is really just the difference between a different level of proficiency in whatever armor, so it's hardly the end of the world especially on the "you can take a hit with the best of them" class.
Matter of perspective I guess, cause that seems awfully low to me.
It's a 10% higher chance to be hit or crit. It's not great. That's also why you get 12 hp per level.
Barbarians were always about face tanking/"best defense is a good offense".
With the plethora of healing options, as long as you can make it through combat conscious you're going to be alright.
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Giant Instinct does fine using an enormous two-handed weapon (or TWF with a bit of multiclassing). Their defense is definitely their weak point but their damage is seriously absurd, and that makes up for a lot.
Going weapon and shield on Giant Instinct is less compelling for the reasons gone into above.
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Their damage output is not far ahead of the Animal Instinct, which has the advantage of much higher AC. Giant Instinct is trash, unfortunately. It's really too bad because I think a Giant Barb has the coolest flavor, but is probably the worst mechanically.
I think the Giant Barbarian is going to eventually outdamage the Animal Barbarian, just because the Giant Barbarian gets extra attacks (because of AoOs with their huge threat range, or the fact that they don't need to move to attack.)
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I think the Giant Barbarian is going to eventually outdamage the Animal Barbarian, just because the Giant Barbarian gets extra attacks (because of AoOs with their huge threat range, or the fact that they don't need to move to attack.)
Oh no doubt, I just don't think the damage difference is enough to make up for that huge gap in AC.
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I think the Giant Barbarian is going to eventually outdamage the Animal Barbarian, just because the Giant Barbarian gets extra attacks (because of AoOs with their huge threat range, or the fact that they don't need to move to attack.)Oh no doubt, I just don't think the damage difference is enough to make up for that huge gap in AC.
I disagree with that assertion. A Giant Instinct Barbarian has a baseline DPR of 57 vs. an Ancient Gold Dragon, while the Ancient Gold Dragon has a DPR of 135.45 vs. the Barbarian (ignoring DR). The Barbarian's DPR rises up by 34.2 if they get an AoO, which they will very regularly.
An Animal Instinct Barbarian, meanwhile, has a DPR of 51 vs. an Ancient Gold Dragon, while the Ancient Gold Dragon has a DPR of 104.4 vs. the Barbarian (again ignoring DR, these comparisons aren't about the dragon specifically, it's just a placeholder 20th level creature).
That's better DPR comparatively for the Giant Instinct Barbarian over two rounds assuming they get one AoO (148.2 vs. 270.9 as opposed to 102 vs. 208.8, that's more than half the dragon's DPR for the Giant Instinct one, less than half for the Animal Instinct one).
Neither of those comparisons are great for the Barbarian, mind you, but the Giant Instinct Barbarian makes a mathematically better exchange. They do even better vs. more targets since they'll get more AoO.
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you compare animal totem to giant totem and how do you compare fury totem to giant totem?
The comparison is basically identical except worse for Fury Totem, since they have -2 AC as compared to Animal Totem but the same damage.
Now, they also have more Feats, which might change things, but at a baseline level there's no need.
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do they have new feats? did i miss something?
Not new ones, but they get an extra Feat at 1st level, and don't have to invest in Instinct Feats (both the Giant Instinct person having Reach and the Animal Instinct one getting +2 AC cost Feats).
So a Fury Instinct Barbarian will always have more Feats, and especially more non-Instinct Feats than an Animal or Giant Instinct Barbarian.