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I'd also like to consider the fact you are giving a crappy hireling stuff worth thousand of golds.
- A crafter get 5s per day
- A year, not sure if on pf world is different, is compose by 365 days
- Our crafter gets 182.5 golds per year
- A weapon potency rune +3 is worth 8935g
- He will be able to get that sum in 50 years of work. Assuming he works every day and doesn't spend anything.
If left alone, I'd roll, with a generous chance of success, for the possibility of fleeing from the city with the item, to start a new life somewhere else.
The crafter who violates the rules of crafters guilds and betrays the trust of adventurers in such a manner has essentially committed suicide (or subjected themselves to an even worse fate)
Guilds are generally incredibly powerful entities who have near complete control of their respective industries, and will do anything to preserve the reputation that enables them to attract customers, and adventurers are just generally willing to go way too far to repay a slight, especially when money is concerned.
I think we can get the 'crafting check required' camp closer to the 'just pay the difference camp' on cost, and maybe somewhat on time. By invoking the acknowledgement from the devs that NPCs crafters use different rules than PCs. For people that caveat, I think the difference in cost in small-change enough to ignore, even without seeing (if we ever do in the GMG/later) the NPC crafting rules.
The NPC rule differences would also have to allow an NPC crafter to instantaneously create/transfer a rune to get rid of the 1 day crafting time. I think that's going to be a harder sell, while a reduction in time to a couple of hours rather than a day seems likely to be accepted.
All an NPC (or a PC for that matter) would need is the Assurance feat and a high enough proficiency modifier to bypass having to roll. I think it is safe to say that most people who craft as a full time job (as opposed to just in the downtime between much more lucrative adventuring) have taken Assurance.
So I think the settlement rules will probably have a market stat for the maximum item level a Craftsman (or the store they supply) can reliably produce.
The intricacies of who is what kind of player and the throwing of shade has no place in this thread.
Yes, a peasant gets paid peanuts, yes runestones are valuable. If I was a desperate peasant I'd have to fight the urge not to flip that rune on the black market.
But really, if you learned to craft magical items, and etch runes, are you really making your Mony enchanting items? Or would you make your Mony crafting freaking runestones and selling them to wizards, knights, and adventurers. No peasant with magical crafting would be your everyday commoner or even skilled laborer. They would be the freaking Macintosh of the adventuring world.
Take about 20% off there. I have no idea what you are talking about or how it relates to what I was talking about. I wasn't throwing any shade. I was saying that NPCs probably have Assurance. (It was pointed out that the feat qualifies as an Fortune effect, which I had forgotten and want to double check the rules interactions on, bit that's unrelated to what you're saying as far as I can tell.)
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I think my favourite thing so far about Pathfinder 2 is that nearly every time there's a post with someone pointing out some rules issue they think they discovered, it's just that either didn't read it correctly or they decided to interpret the written rules in as obtuse a manner as possible. It shows how great a job the design team did, that the vast majority of "mistakes" are actually non-issues.Right? XD
It makes these posts at least have some entertainment to go along with the irritation. XP
Not everyone "gets" a particular rule the first time, especially since this thread here isn't really resolved with any of the rules as written, but with a bunch of context taken from outside the CRB. People carry different expectations of the game, they interpret things differently from others, they read something from someone online, etc. These rules boards are for people to ask questions. In this case, a lot of people are coming in acting like it's the most obvious thing that a character should have access to a magical crafter to upgrade their equipment throughout the campaign, but that isn't obvious to everyone, myself included, and I've never played a tabletop game in the past where that was a given. There's not really any need to act like we're some kind of bad actors for trying to make sense of the rules as presented ("they decided to interpret the written rules in as obtuse a manner as possible").
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Not everyone "gets" a particular rule the first time, especially since this thread here isn't really resolved with any of the rules as written, but with a bunch of context taken from outside the CRB. People carry different expectations of the game, they interpret things differently from others, they read something from someone online, etc. These rules boards are for people to ask questions. In this case, a lot of people are coming in acting like it's the most obvious thing that a character should have access to a magical crafter to upgrade their equipment throughout the campaign, but that isn't obvious to everyone, myself included, and I've never played a tabletop game in the past where that was a given. There's not really any need to act like we're some kind of bad actors for trying to make sense of the rules as presented ("they decided to interpret the written rules in as obtuse a manner as possible").I think my favourite thing so far about Pathfinder 2 is that nearly every time there's a post with someone pointing out some rules issue they think they discovered, it's just that either didn't read it correctly or they decided to interpret the written rules in as obtuse a manner as possible. It shows how great a job the design team did, that the vast majority of "mistakes" are actually non-issues.Right? XD
It makes these posts at least have some entertainment to go along with the irritation. XP
On the other hand, while I don't think this thread or its creator falls into this category, there are some examples of folks who seem intent on making it as hard on themselves as possible. They do tend to make me roll my eyes a little.
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I think "pay the difference" can make sense, given some conditions:
1. The crafter has the higher level rune on hand, in a rune stone or other item, and can transfer it to your weapon for you. In this case, it's just like selling a regular magic item.
2. The crafter is given your weapon to upgrade by etching a new rune to it, and is allowed to continue crafting on it to reduce the cost as much as possible. The cost difference created through continuing to work on the item (the 50% cost which can be removed by crafting) is effectively what the crafter has earned for their services. They do effectively lose 4 days' pay through the craft rules, but that's part of their operating costs.
3. The crafter is given your weapon to etch a new rune, but is only given 4 days to complete it. In this case the cost to them to complete your etching is equal to what you pay them, so they made no money for the 4 days they just worked. In that case, I would expect the crafter to charge some sort of "rushed service" premium to compensate. Wouldn't have to be a lot, just enough to cover the 4 days' labor. Basically what they would have earned if they spent that time crafting something else to reduce its cost.
Option 2 seems extremely unlikely to me, as you are an adventurer and can't go without a weapon for a month, so it's basically down to 1 and 3.
Now, I would be happy for example if option 1 is always assumed for PFS. The crafter always has a rune available, which they crafted themselves to reduce the cost, so there is no extra cost for labor, they've effectively already made their money once they sell their rune.
Option 1 is what I hope is settled on, but its not the only option supportable by the rules, which is the reason for my comments.
But even under option 1, how are you avoiding the 1 day time required to transfer the rune?
Option 1 is what I hope is settled on, but its not the only option supportable by the rules, which is the reason for my comments.
But even under option 1, how are you avoiding the 1 day time required to transfer the rune?
I think that becomes cost of doing business, like the 4 days it took the crafter to make the higher rune that they will transfer. There isn't really any way you can pay normal price as a PC and have the crafter also make equivalent money for all his time worked, since craft is strictly worse than Earn an Income at the same level for making money.
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The Craft rules and Earn Income rules in the CRB are for adventurers. NPCs with dedicated crafting/mercantile careers have their own, more efficient economics. That's why PCs have to sell loot at half value but merchants get to sell it at full value.
I don't think you can get anywhere useful making assumptions about NPC economics based on the CRB. Once we have the GMG, maybe.
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Fair enough, and I guess the answer to the rules question of how a Crafting NPC makes money can only be "The rules don't cover that" for now.
You. Are. Not. Transferring. Runes.
Then what are you doing?
The Craft rules and Earn Income rules in the CRB are for adventurers. NPCs with dedicated crafting/mercantile careers have their own, more efficient economics. That's why PCs have to sell loot at half value but merchants get to sell it at full value.
I don't think you can get anywhere useful making assumptions about NPC economics based on the CRB. Once we have the GMG, maybe.
True enough NPCs can and do operate via different rules, or non-existent rules that need not necessarily always be known.
However, the whole PCs sell at half price and NPCs always sell at full price is a misstatement in my opinion. NPC shop owners have a selection, and people come to them to buy things that the buyers want. The buyers come in and decide what product, and when they will buy it. The merchant gets to sell at 100% because of this.
PCs come in and say, I have this, I don't want it anymore, I want you to buy this, and I want you to buy this now. They don't magically, because of arbitrary rule that they are a PC, get paid less for it. They get paid less because it makes sense they get paid less, because they are defining the item and the time they convert it to money.
I'm pretty sure it explicitly says, that a PC who gets a commission to create a specific item (the NPC dictates a specific item they want and when they want it) the PC gets paid 100% value for that item. They also get 100% for trade goods, of which raw materials are an example of such a thing. So these items there is a constant market for, so defining the time and item isn't a big deal, and doesn't impact the amount you get for a sale.
Basically, the design for second edition is such that other than sometimes specific types of crafting allowing you to make certain limited consumables for free, crafting doesn't impact the cost of getting something. What it does is effect availability. If you learn to do something, you can do it even if that particular 'item/skill/option' isn't being created by your current economy.
So if someone of high enough skill (NPC) is available in the market and at least indifferent to you, they would do it for the cost specified in transferring it. If no-one is available in your current community, you can do it, if you know how to do it and have the appropriate crafting ability.
One of the Age of Ashes modules makes it clear that when you pay an NPC to do a job they are qualified, they don't roll to complete it, it is just presumed successful at the end. If you and a player do it, that is when you roll. When the NPC does a job for you that you are playing them for, it it never results in a fail, or crit fail, but it also never ends up being a critical success. [I'm sure in some future module, there might be some exception to this where you have to get resources for an NPC to help make sure that they make some roll that might impact the storyline, but that will be the exception, rather than the rule.]
And I'm not asking about economics. I grant that NPCs can craft using different rules to allow the PC-facing economy to work. I'm granting the cost can simply be the cost difference between the item you have and item + rune you want.
There are two ways that runes get added to an item:
1) _someone_ etches them. I'll grant that the NPC merchant auto-succeeds on this check. The process as listed takes 4 days.
2) _someone_ transfer an existing rune, I'll grant the NPC merchant auto-succeeds on this. The process takes 1 day.
What is the timeless way you're interpreting it?
Nothing. Anywhere. ANYWHERE. Suggests you have to transfer a rune from one item to another in order to upgrade it.
You. Simply. Upgrade. It.
Upgrading means you're just using the normal crafting process, which means it takes 4 days. Which is generally worse for all parties involved than simply transferring an existing rune from a runestone, which only takes 1 day. We are discussing transferring rather than upgrading from scratch because it saves the buyer time and the crafter money.
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Upgrading means you're just using the normal crafting process, which means it takes 4 days.Nothing. Anywhere. ANYWHERE. Suggests you have to transfer a rune from one item to another in order to upgrade it.
You. Simply. Upgrade. It.
If you are the one crafting it? Yes, you are correct.
If you are not crafting it, then no, it doesn't take 4 days. You simply pay the difference, and walk away.
If you disagree, please cite where you're reading that.
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Upgrading means you're just using the normal crafting process, which means it takes 4 days.Nothing. Anywhere. ANYWHERE. Suggests you have to transfer a rune from one item to another in order to upgrade it.
You. Simply. Upgrade. It.
If you are the one crafting it? Yes, you are correct.
If you are not crafting it, then no, it doesn't take 4 days. You simply pay the difference, and walk away.
If you disagree, please cite where you're reading that.
You are wrong good sir. Yes, you pay the difference in order upgrade. However, the person you are paying to do the upgrade is playing the same game you are. And the game says that the process takes 4 days. So when you don't have to do the upgrade yourself. You don't just walk into a craftman's shop, lay down some gold and suddenly your item is upgraded. You hand over yourb item, the Craftsman looks it over, probably checking what sort of rune it is, gives you a price (btw those prices in the book don't seem to have markup). You pay the guy, he tells you how long it will take. You walk away, 4 days later (or however long the Craftsman says if there are story reasons) you get your upgraded item.
Now, what could happen is you go to a Craftsman, pay the difference and trade your item for an upgraded one if the Craftsman has one. That is easily something that could happen.
The npc isn't playing a game. NPCs don't follow the same rules as players. The craftsman is living a life where they are dedicated to their craft and aren't worried about the other pressures that the life of an adventurer demands.
The game says that when a player character wants to craft something, the process takes 4 days. Whether that applies to a given npc is purely up to the GM.
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You are wrong good sir. Yes, you pay the difference in order upgrade. However, the person you are paying to do the upgrade is playing the same game you are.Upgrading means you're just using the normal crafting process, which means it takes 4 days.Nothing. Anywhere. ANYWHERE. Suggests you have to transfer a rune from one item to another in order to upgrade it.
You. Simply. Upgrade. It.
If you are the one crafting it? Yes, you are correct.
If you are not crafting it, then no, it doesn't take 4 days. You simply pay the difference, and walk away.
If you disagree, please cite where you're reading that.
Again, Citation?
Non-player characters are by definition not playing the game.
And I can easily come up with a counter argument with no support: the NPC crafter had already spent the 4 days ahead of you showing up. Every good merchant who makes a living should be perpetually ready to serve the next client.
Now, do I have a citation for that? No more than you do. And so we're left with the "Price and Process" outlined in the CRB chart.
AKA, you just pay the difference and move on.
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You are wrong good sir. Yes, you pay the difference in order upgrade. However, the person you are paying to do the upgrade is playing the same game you are.Upgrading means you're just using the normal crafting process, which means it takes 4 days.Nothing. Anywhere. ANYWHERE. Suggests you have to transfer a rune from one item to another in order to upgrade it.
You. Simply. Upgrade. It.
If you are the one crafting it? Yes, you are correct.
If you are not crafting it, then no, it doesn't take 4 days. You simply pay the difference, and walk away.
If you disagree, please cite where you're reading that.
Again, Citation?
Non-player characters are by definition not playing the game.
And I can easily come up with a counter argument with no support: the NPC crafter had already spent the 4 days ahead of you showing up. Every good merchant who makes a living should be perpetually ready to serve the next client.
Now, do I have a citation for that? No more than you do. And so we're left with the "Price and Process" outlined in the CRB chart.
AKA, you just pay the difference and move on.
I feel like you're making a lot of assumptions about how the rules are supposed to work around something that the designers have explicitly said they hadn't settled on this at the time they had to send the CRB off to the printer. Assuming "it just happens, no questions asked" feels like a bold move given this. And it seems like applying that logic to fill in other blanks is going to make some pretty bizarre consequences in world. For example, there's nothing that dictates how item level and settlement size correspond. Does that mean I can buy Apex items in a 50 person village's general store?
As a corollary to the above, nothing in the rules tells us who all actually does the upgrading. If you assume the Craft rules don't apply to the person, does that mean they also don't need the formulas for the item? I can just hand my weapon and the required amount of gold over to an apprentice smith and he will instantly be able to transform it into a +3 major striking weapon?
Acting like folks like Nielsen are failing at basic reading comprehension for trying to parse out how this should actually look in world using the rules as we currently understand them feels unnecessarily condescending. Handwaving it just happens is a fine enough move as a GM, but it is no less handwaving that it takes some time as per the rules of Craft checks. Indeed, it seems less supported because at least the Craft check uses the rules of the game and can be explained in fiction.
You're acting like "this isn't defined" is the same thing as "it just happens this very particular way." And that's not a great look.
None of these things are defined. Which means we GMs need to fill in the gaps. Now, as folks have pointed out, an NPC isn't limited to the options available in the CRB. They could have an as of yet unpublished skill feat that lets them ignore these requirement, or even a unique ability that will never become player facing. But you probably should have an in fiction way to justify it, or at least explain what is happening, that doesn't totally break immersion. Saying someone has spent 4 days preparing an item ahead of time is fine, and makes sense for say a suit of armor that will need to have final modifications made to the size of the buyer. But runes need to be etched onto SOMETHING as we currently understand them and transferred over to something else. A partially assembled rune that isn't actually on anything breaks my immersion much more than a skill feat that lets you transfer a rune in 10 minutes instead of a day.
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NPCs aren't [b]built[b] using the same rules as PCs to make it easier on GMs, they still need to follow any other rulesWhy? What possible enhancement to the game can that bring about for those playing? Do we worry about crafting rules when we buy ale at the pub? Do we manage the innkeeper's inventory of ale? Or balance his accounts receivable?
This is being soooooooo overthought...
Oooo! Balancing the tavern's accounts! My OCD is into that idea.
Some people here are basically trying to bypass the craft skill by just saying "I'm having the NPC do it for me". Which would be fine, if you weren't also assuming that said NPC does it for free, on his own time and with no risk of failure. You are basically proving the raw resources (the rune and the weapon to be etched), or pay the price of these resources, and expect to reap the rewards of turning those raw resources into something useful for free. For all other uses of NPC help with a skill (and use of the craft skill is repeatedly referenced in pretty much all the relevant sections and sidebars in the CRB), you'd be expected to hire that NPC and run the needed check at the bonus he provides. There is absolutely no reason why that general principle should not apply here.
The prices given for the individual parts (rune, sword, etc) are quite clearly the prices of the starting materials, not that of the finished product. You arrive at the finished product by applying the craft skill to those resources. You either "pay" for that by having invested in that skill yourself, or you "pay" by paying someone to do it for you. It takes time and effort. Getting it done for free is "too good to be true".
If you were to apply similar logic, why bother with buying finished products for the high listed price at all? Just give the metal to the smith and have him do the needed craft checks to turn it into a sword - for free, on his own time and with no risk of failure. Or if you want to go with the tavern example, give him some hops, wheat and water and expect to get all the beer this could be turned into over time in return.
I think we can get the 'crafting check required' camp closer to the 'just pay the difference camp' on cost, and maybe somewhat on time. By invoking the acknowledgement from the devs that NPCs crafters use different rules than PCs. For people that caveat, I think the difference in cost in small-change enough to ignore, even without seeing (if we ever do in the GMG/later) the NPC crafting rules.
The NPC rule differences would also have to allow an NPC crafter to instantaneously create/transfer a rune to get rid of the 1 day crafting time. I think that's going to be a harder sell, while a reduction in time to a couple of hours rather than a day seems likely to be accepted.
All an NPC (or a PC for that matter) would need is the Assurance feat and a high enough proficiency modifier to bypass having to roll. I think it is safe to say that most people who craft as a full time job (as opposed to just in the downtime between much more lucrative adventuring) have taken Assurance.
So I think the settlement rules will probably have a market stat for the maximum item level a Craftsman (or the store they supply) can reliably produce.
Better yet, they have a unique feature which overwrites the standard way their craft check is calculated such that you don't have to muck around with proficiency and level.