High-level superheroes everywhere: lore implications for the "post-adventure-path cinematic universe"

[Colette Brunel]

Is it just me, or does making 4719 AR a post-adventure-path world mean that Golarion is now crawling with parties of high-level heroes? How would this not be a massive factor, if not the single biggest factor, in the political landscape and the relations between nations?

Consider the following adventure paths: Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, Serpent's Skull, Jade Regent, Skull & Shackles, Shattered Star, Reign of Winter, Wrath of the Righteous, Mummy's Mask, Iron Gods, Giantslayer, Reign of Winter, Hell's Rebels, Hell's Vengeance, Strange Aeons, Ironfang Invasion, Ruins of Azlant, War for the Crown, Return of the Runelords.

These 23 adventure paths all end in a living, intact, high-level party (up to 20th level and mythic tier 10th for Wrath of the Righteous) who will probably amass even more levels and power as they go on to tackle the "continuing the campaign" adventure hooks.

Would this not mean that Golarion's landscape is now dominated by these epic heroes serving as the real movers and shakers of the world? Assuming a four-PC party for each of these 23 adventure paths, that is 92 heroes. Even if a full half of these legendary heroes retired, never to adventure again, the other 46 would still be forces to be reckoned with, the real powers behind the political landscape. There is no way that these immensely powerful figures are just sitting around, doing nothing. Would Golarion not effectively be a world of demigodly heroes engaging in national-scale, if not global-scale, adventurous pursuits? Only one of these, the Hell's Vengeance party, is supposed to be evil, too.

In the "post-adventure-path cinematic universe," there are dozens of epic figures ready to teleport off and solve the world's problems. I cannot see how it would be possible for any major power, terrestrial or extraplanar, to attempt some nefarious plot without being responded to by at least one of these parties.

Consider, let us say, Kintargo, capital of Ravounel. By the time the party completes the "Continuing the Campaign" section of Hell's Rebels, they are quite likely to be 20th level. By that point, I do not think that party is going to let any ills befall Ravounel, let alone Kintargo, the capital city that they spent the bulk of their career fighting for and defending. This makes it all the more confusing that Age of Ashes #3 is heading to Kintargo. The same goes for the Jade Regent party and Kasai (capital of Minkai), the Curse of the Crimson Throne party and Korvosa, the Iron Gods party and Starfall, and so on and so forth.

[Ouranou]

They are busy saving the galaxy from high level threats you never hear about thanks to their efforts.

[Colette Brunel]

Ouranou wrote:

They are busy saving the galaxy from high level threats you never hear about thanks to their efforts.

I would like to see Lost Omens: Infinity War, then.

[Ruzza]

Unfortunately, all the heroes are now being kept in a safe and secure cage by a powerful wererat. I hear tell that he has since graduated from his days as the apprentice to a sorcerer and is now even more powerful.

[Ubertron_X]

All of those went off stopping Groetus from ending the world, so there's that...

Edit: On the other hand it would really be nice to know how my high priest of Iomedae and the kingdom he helped building is faring...

[PossibleCabbage]

This is hardly a new thing, since Return of the Runelords had to account for why neither of the two high level adventuring parties from the two APs that were direct prequels to that one couldn't just do it.

But Paizo isn't going to comment on "what your PCs from that AP are up to" because that cuts off all the stories that you could tell to write your own group off into the sunset with.

Like by far the most amusing part of our failed Hell's Vengeance campaign was "figuring out what these folks went off to, after betraying Thrune and handing Westcrown to the Glorious Reclamation". The Sorrow discipline psychic killed the graveknight and brought the armor to her private, inaccessible demiplane so she'd be less lonely after the armor reforms, while the Nidalese reincarnated druid is sheltering the enigma mesmerist in the Uskwood.

Off plane or off world is a great place to send high level PCs you want to write off too. We've had PCs become Shyka, move to Triaxus, stay on the elemental plane of earth, become the reeve of the witchmarket, etc.

[keftiu]

The simple answer is "it doesn't matter what they're up to, because we aren't telling a story about them, we're telling a story about our current PCs."

What's the alternative you would prefer, having them canonize or invent twenty godlike adventuring parties and having them exist in the world to fix everything? That's boring. It can just be that some heroes saved the day, the APs happened, and history continued on.

[Ruzza]

GM: "Alright, so the town of Bumblebackwoods has been attacked."
Players: "We grab our blades and rush to-"
GM: "No, no, it's fine. I took care of it already. Y'know, people other than you exist, y'know?"
Players: "Oh, so..."
GM: "Please roll some Earn Income checks for the next... let's say 30 years. Then I guess die."
Players: "Another amazing game, yes, thank you."

[Colette Brunel]

I was expecting some sort of sidebar in the Lost Omens World Guide suggesting how the world works with so many high-level (possibly 20th-level) parties running amok, especially since most groups have not played most adventure paths.

[keftiu]

Colette Brunel wrote:

I was expecting some sort of sidebar in the Lost Omens World Guide suggesting how the world works with so many high-level (possibly 20th-level) parties running amok, especially since most groups have not played most adventure paths.

The answer is that it doesn't, because the world needs heroes like those currently sitting around your metaphorical gaming table to save it.

EDIT: There's basically two ways you can handle this. Either the setting advances and the old PCs aren't on-screen anymore for the sake of still having a functional game, or they do and you end up with the 3.x-era Forgotten Realms, which needed a magical apocalypse that killed or drove mad all those powerful characters in order to stay functional as a world of adventure. It's a case of gameplay and story segregation required to keep things workable.

[Ruzza]

In all seriousness, this seems to me an area of not stifling creativity or discounting actions of what your groups may have done in the past. I've run a handful of APs, but there's no way that I've run them all. My players would like to hear about what happened in Cheliax since we ran Hell's Vengeance, but they couldn't care less about the Taldor since they never played in the area.

If Paizo puts out a suggestion of "What to do if your players ask questions," sidebar, it's all well and good, but it's an incredibly niche question, and strange - especially given that one of 2e design philosophies is to empower the GM quite significantly.

[thenobledrake]

That the modern time of the setting is "post adventure path" is irrelevant as the same question of "but what are the people that dealt with X up to now?" similarly applies to all of the events found in the history of the setting.

Rise of the Runelords is the first playable part of the story, but it is not the literal beginning of their being adventurers (and other sorts of characters) of high-level present in the world.

If Paizo didn't take the time to specifically detail the current lives of all the high-level characters that were easy to canonize from those historical events and write side-bars about them into Rise of the Runelords or any of the other APs brought up as proof of some kind of abundance (roughly 100 people in a world inhabited by millions is statistically zero, by the way), why should they try to write a side-bar about the ones that definitely aren't easy to canonize because no two groups to play through the AP would have the same party?

The closest you could get is Paizo making the blundering error to have the iconics not just be examples and archetypes, but legitimately present in the setting in the role of adventurers - and then every group that's played through an AP would be home-brewing that it was their own characters who did X rather than the iconic team that canonically did it according to the book.

[keftiu]

One might also ask why Old-Mage Jatembe hasn't solved everything.

He showed up, he did some heroic stuff, he wandered off out of the setting.

[Doktor Weasel]

The main party that causes issues is the one from Wrath of the Righteous. They've got not just level 20 but 10 Mythic tiers. In some cases they're quite literally godlike. Our solution involved high mythic characters to ascend off plane to deal with higher issues as demigods.

The others can be dealt with with high-level threats keeping them in check. But mythic is a real game-changer.

[John Lynch 106]

Ouranou wrote:

They are busy saving the galaxy from high level threats you never hear about thanks to their efforts.

Aaaah. The Elminster defense!

I prefer to go with "After saving the world they hang up their tools and retire with their massive amount of wealth to live quiet lives for the rest of their days."

[DerNils]

Your story, your decision. This is the same question after every Adventure path. If you don't look to closely, the question is already there inside the Adventure path the Minute a high Level friendly NPC is there (e.g. the Queen in Wrath of the Righteous) Even with Mythic, they meet the Queen at the End of Book 1, and she is a 17th Level Paladin - why doesn't she solve all the Problems?

Because the Avengers can't be everywhere. And as Paizo does not know your specific Avengers Lineup, you have to come up with those excuses in your own game.

By the way, never, ever start to think about how the world works at all with these high powered people littering the landscape. There is no reason that not every Golarion Country is a magocracy if you start to apply game logic to the backgroud. Just don't look too hard.

[Envall]

The world is really, really big.

It works even better in Starfinder since space is REALLY REALLY big.

[Deadmanwalking]

Have you looked at PF1's canonical setting pre-AP? It's not exactly light on high level characters. Indeed, given the number of such characters you kill in an AP, the total number is unlikely to have changed all that much, certainly not by more than two or three per nation, and likely less.

The only difficulty, such as it is, is that the former PCs are a tad more likely to be Good-aligned, but that doesn't inherently make them less busy.

My CotCT party is definitely helping run Korvosa, and Korvosa is a safer city because of it, but some AP that threatens Korvosa (as Return of the Runelords did) aside, I legitimately don't see how they'd get involved even with other events in Varisia. Only half of them are Good aligned, and they're busy protecting and running a city.

Similarly, assuming the canonical endings, I'd expect most RoW parties are pretty busy helping to advise the new Queen and institute internal reforms in Irrisen, most Serpent's Skull parties were probably involved in the recent events in what was once Sargava and are now involved in the new government there, most Ironfang Invasion PCs are busy serving as watchers to keep Oprak honest, and so on and so forth. They're busy.

Really, the only issue is WotR parties, and the 'going and fighting stuff on other planes' explanation actually works for them. Heck, they might well be incapable of coming back to Golarion.

[Vidmaster 1st edition]

This is reminding me of conversations about Elminster I've had.

[NemoNoName]

You're just assuming that these will be the only high-level people around, and there's no reason to assume it. In fact, far more reasonable assumption is that there is high level people everywhere; world is full of them.

As to why don't they deal with this s+&~... Well, consider that when all the AP's start, it's all low level threats. No reason they should bother. By the time it's clear there is a high level threat, you are there and they are all somewhere else doing their own business.

[John Lynch 106]

Our Strange Aeons party basically said "if we never ever see each other ever again it will be too soon. Have a good life" and then we fled in opposite directions as quickly as we could.

Which was funny because two of us were twins (the GM wrote all our backstories). My PC basically told the twin "I have lived for centuries being tortured by other worldly creatures all because of you. I have kept you alive through the past few months and finally freed you. None of this would have been necessary had you just stopped doing stupid things. Your own your own." I did spend the entire AP trying to stop him from going insane or dying. He did make it quite difficult.

So that party is guaranteed to never get involved in any trouble ever again.

[Colette Brunel]

With each completed adventure path, a vast swath of high-level evil threats are eliminated, and the void is filled by high-level champions of good (or at least the more productive side of neutrality) who are likely 20th level by the time they finish out the "Continuing the Campaign" hooks.

If a given party is the type to settle down and effectively run a given nation, then that nation is effectively immune to high-level threats. I do not think Ravounel/Kintargo, Minkai/Kasai, or Korvosa, for example, are going to be threatened by anything major any time soon.

[DerNils]

But a lot of them already are. By that logic, there could never be any threat to Absalom either, if you just look at the number of high Level good NPC's there.

Again, look at Wrath of the Righteous - right off the bat there is a Level 17 Paladin, leader of the Nation most opposed to the Worldwound. Why hasn't she closed it already? Or at least covered the threats of modules 1-4?

Why are there lower Level Pathfinder agents? The Top Tier pathfinders surely have the means and the Levels to adress all threats taht come up in any Scenario? Why bother?

[Deadmanwalking]

Colette Brunel wrote:

With each completed adventure path, a vast swath of high-level evil threats are eliminated, and the void is filled by high-level champions of good (or at least the more productive side of neutrality) who are likely 20th level by the time they finish out the "Continuing the Campaign" hooks.

I wouldn't assume all the Continuing The Campaign stuff happened in the canoncial setting. Paizo has said they haven't.

And the PCs are Good or Neutral, it's true, but they're not necessarily proactive. Indeed, they're quite likely to not be, at least not by preference since most are 'retired' in some sense.

Colette Brunel wrote:

If a given party is the type to settle down and effectively run a given nation, then that nation is effectively immune to high-level threats. I do not think Ravounel/Kintargo, Minkai/Kasai, or Korvosa, for example, are going to be threatened by anything major any time soon.

Uh...Korvosa's already been threatened since then (in Return of the Runelords), and Ravounel has the issue of, well, Cheliax (and particularly the Hell's Vengeance PCs), which can't readily attack them directly, but indirectly is another matter. And the Whispering Tyrant is a threat to everything in the whole region.

So two of those examples are already incorrect.

[QuidEst]

The sun.

We all know about the high level wizard who got sick of Golarion and moved to the sun. What hasn’t been revealed is that he’s actually just sick of all the low-level commoners bugging him to solve all their problems. Once you’re high enough level and have wrapped up business, you get an invite to move out to the galaxy’s most exclusive gated community.

[Anguish]

Colette Brunel wrote:

If a given party is the type to settle down and effectively run a given nation, then that nation is effectively immune to high-level threats. I do not think Ravounel/Kintargo, Minkai/Kasai, or Korvosa, for example, are going to be threatened by anything major any time soon.

1} This is not new. Regardless of if Paizo canonically assumes that previous adventure paths have been resolved, I expect most of us who have played more than one as a group developed a shared experience. Meaning that - for instance - at my table, all of our adventures have happened in one continuity. So we've had this "conundrum" for a decade. It's always been our problem to resolve by being creating regarding our ex-heroes.

2} It's not an issue. If this is purely about Paizo's canon acceptance of success and they're not your heroes, this is trivial: they're dead. Sure, they're hard to kill, but accidents happen, old age happens, and there are obviously bad things going on in the world current PCs are unaware of.

3} It's not an issue - part 2. The way APs are (mostly) designed, challenges are level-appropriate and BBEGs are (mostly) hidden threats. At 1st through 12th level (for instance), the PCs deal with challenges that 20th level retired heroes wouldn't bother with unless the new generation fails. There's deliberately room for non-epic heroes to do their thing. It's just like a real-world brain-surgeon not bothering to mop the room after... they have the qualifications to sterilize the instruments, but their time is better-spent otherwise. By the time a BBEG is (usually) revealed, the new PCs are qualified to deal with it.

Point is that this is only an issue if you want it to be disruptive at your table.

[Rysky]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Is it just me, or does making 4719 AR a post-adventure-path world mean that Golarion is now crawling with parties of high-level heroes?

I wouldn't consider the planet "crawling" with just 100 people or so.

There was hundreds of high level characters before the APs, there's hundreds of high level characters after.

[Malk_Content]

Have you tried reading mage or vamp 20th edition? They tried to account for every possible variation in the time line and the lore sections of those books are a mess. I can't just tell a player to read the book to get up to speed, because they will just get confused by the multiple realities on offer.

Pf2 is right to not even attempt this. It gives the majority a nice tidy world to proceed with.

[GameDesignerDM]

There's also the idea that these adventurers might understand that if they solved every single problem in the world, then no one would ever try to do it themselves, and rely on them to do everything.

After all, the world will always need heroes, and new heroes must become that themselves.

I look at it like Gandalf and the other Istari - sure, they could have solved a bunch of problems, but it wasn't their purpose and Gandalf in the end existed much more as a catalyst to push others to do great things.

[Chetna Wavari]

There is no problem because they don't have cable television.

As such, they can't learn about problems elsewhere unless they've got a network of people constantly scrying the entire planet. The PCs of the new AP wouldn't likely know these other heroes or necessarily even know of their exploits unless the events were more public. However, it feels like a lot of APs are dealing with secret threats.

There's also the fact that at that level a lot of those heroes don't even have to retire on this plane. Maybe they built a really swank bar in the Boneyard that caters to the various interplanar travelers that have business there.

[Doompatrol]

There's multiple ways this can be taken into account.

Some of those adventurers tackled multiple issues. Then idea that characters go from 1 to 20 is mechanical, lore wise many can be started with characters claiming to be seasoned adventurers.

Not all of them survived the adventure.

Move on to other planes of existence to tackle issues there.

Some settle down, maybe some of the new PC's are children of these characters.

[Narxiso]

My thoughts on the matter is that the last decade or so of adventure paths have been going on through staggered starts with many of them overlapping with time. Of course, I'm not really familiar with the setting, but if I recall, each adventure path corresponds to the date on which it was released in the Golarion setting, as in today is August 29, 2019 and Arodus 29, 4719. My guess is that the adventure paths so far have take months or years to complete in-game, so all of the heroes have not finished up their issues and have gotten around to fixing everyone else's.

Another guess could be that this could actually be the Age of Heroes with some force stopping epic heroes from solving all of the world's problems so that others can rise and face some sort of world ending calamity: looking at you, Groetus. In fact, I'm planning on using Golarion as the start for a campaign of inter-planar war.

[PossibleCabbage]

John Lynch 106 wrote:

Our Strange Aeons party basically said "if we never ever see each other ever again it will be too soon. Have a good life" and then we fled in opposite directions as quickly as we could.

The Strange Aeons party especially has a reason to avoid being active in public life. I think the obvious answer for them is that they all seek a secluded hermitage and never talk to anyone for as long as they live, because they all know things that shouldn't ever get out.

[RangerWickett]

I did always want to try building a party of 20th level characters and running through an adventure path from start to finish.

Iron Gods
Oh, the Torch has gone out and a local VIP went missing trying to fix it. Let's cast some divinations. Ah, he's being tortured by some sort of machine. Scry, buff, teleport. Cast greater restoration on the guy, get the full story. Oh, someone turned off the Torch. Scry on her. Buff, teleport in. Take her nonlethally, dominate her, get all her information.

Okay, she's working for a 'god' named Hellion out of Scrapwall. Scry on him? Weird, it didn't work. Well, let's stretch our legs. Windwalk to Scrapwall. Man, these people have it rough. Let's cast miracle to make the land fertile here and provide enough fruits for everyone to at least avoid scurvy. Oh, that pissed off some locals. Subdue them handily, charm person, learn about all the stuff that's going on here. Chain lightning takes out the entirety of the first mob of bad guys. Speak with dead to get the route to Hellion. Waltz in, fight some guys, go underground, sigh. Fools think they can hurt us. Oh, this technology stuff is nifty.

Ah, finally, Hellion. He's in a robot body, so chain lightning again and . . . oh, sh**, he exploded and killed Jim. Breath of life, good to go.

Well, we have a lead to why he was doing this. Something about being pissed off at some people in Starfall. Let's go there.

(Skips adventures 3 and 4, since the hook to go after them is easily missed.)

Oh, there are a lot of bad guys here. This might actually take a while. Let's really quickly scrysassinate the high-level leadership, then come back tomorrow after buying some shocking adamantine weapons to deal with their robots.

Okay then. Five adventures done in a day and a half. Tomorrow we'll mop up the villains here in Starfall, and then we'll take a look at that big crashed spaceship over there.

[Garretmander]

RangerWickett wrote:

I did always want to try building a party of 20th level characters and running through an adventure path from start to finish.

Iron Gods
Oh, the Torch has gone out and a local VIP went missing trying to fix it. Let's cast some divinations. Ah, he's being tortured by some sort of machine. Scry, buff, teleport. Cast greater restoration on the guy, get the full story. Oh, someone turned off the Torch. Scry on her. Buff, teleport in. Take her nonlethally, dominate her, get all her information.

Okay, she's working for a 'god' named Hellion out of Scrapwall. Scry on him? Weird, it didn't work. Well, let's stretch our legs. Windwalk to Scrapwall. Man, these people have it rough. Let's cast miracle to make the land fertile here and provide enough fruits for everyone to at least avoid scurvy. Oh, that pissed off some locals. Subdue them handily, charm person, learn about all the stuff that's going on here. Chain lightning takes out the entirety of the first mob of bad guys. Speak with dead to get the route to Hellion. Waltz in, fight some guys, go underground, sigh. Fools think they can hurt us. Oh, this technology stuff is nifty.

Ah, finally, Hellion. He's in a robot body, so chain lightning again and . . . oh, sh**, he exploded and killed Jim. Breath of life, good to go.

Well, we have a lead to why he was doing this. Something about being pissed off at some people in Starfall. Let's go there.

(Skips adventures 3 and 4, since the hook to go after them is easily missed.)

Oh, there are a lot of bad guys here. This might actually take a while. Let's really quickly scrysassinate the high-level leadership, then come back tomorrow after buying some shocking adamantine weapons to deal with their robots.

Okay then. Five adventures done in a day and a half. Tomorrow we'll mop up the villains here in Starfall, and then we'll take a look at that big crashed spaceship over there.

When running a AP, I always have in the back of my mind how a level 20 wizard would deal with anything that happens. In PF1, it occasionally would be useful in dealing with caster PCs.

[James Jacobs]

We have more adventure paths than we have Iconics. It might be that Merisiel and Kyra and Seoni and Valeros, for example, did Rise of the Runelords and hit 18th level and then just did a bunch of other adventure paths and blasted through them fast in a few days or weeks as opposed to "restarting" each time with a new 1st level party.

In each home game, you'll be able to track the implications on your own.

In canon, we don't. The PCs who played through the 1st edition APs are not actual "characters" in the setting.

[Colette Brunel]

James Jacobs wrote:

We have more adventure paths than we have Iconics. It might be that Merisiel and Kyra and Seoni and Valeros, for example, did Rise of the Runelords and hit 18th level and then just did a bunch of other adventure paths and blasted through them fast in a few days or weeks as opposed to "restarting" each time with a new 1st level party.

In each home game, you'll be able to track the implications on your own.

In canon, we don't. The PCs who played through the 1st edition APs are not actual "characters" in the setting.

Then what is the default assumption for these great and heroic adventurers who completed the adventure paths? Is it purely left for the GM to decide how they are shaping the world nowadays?

[Deadmanwalking]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Then what is the default assumption for these great and heroic adventurers who completed the adventure paths? Is it purely left for the GM to decide how they are shaping the world nowadays?

It sounds like it. Which is fine with me, honestly.

Or go with the Iconic thing he mentions above, that'd make some sense and make the total number of characters in question significantly smaller.

[TheGoofyGE3K]

One could also just go play the finale of 1e Society with all your non-retired characters >:D

[James Jacobs]

Colette Brunel wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

We have more adventure paths than we have Iconics. It might be that Merisiel and Kyra and Seoni and Valeros, for example, did Rise of the Runelords and hit 18th level and then just did a bunch of other adventure paths and blasted through them fast in a few days or weeks as opposed to "restarting" each time with a new 1st level party.

In each home game, you'll be able to track the implications on your own.

In canon, we don't. The PCs who played through the 1st edition APs are not actual "characters" in the setting.

Then what is the default assumption for these great and heroic adventurers who completed the adventure paths? Is it purely left for the GM to decide how they are shaping the world nowadays?

It's purely left for the GM and their players to decide. Player character actions are the one thing we can't and won't ever tell you about, since we don't know who your PCs are. Best we can do is to list at the end of an Adventure Path how the world might change if the PCs win or lose.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

One could also just go play the finale of 1e Society with all your non-retired characters >:D

Why, what happened?

[Deadmanwalking]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

One could also just go play the finale of 1e Society with all your non-retired characters >:D

Why, what happened?

From context (purely this comment, them needing to do a reboot, and it involving the Whispering Tyrant's awakening), I'm guessing everyone dies.

[Colette Brunel]

The way I am personally rationalizing it is that after Tar-Baphon was driven away from Avistan in the year 4719 AR, the mythic heroes of the Worldwound (or, more properly, the Sarkoris Scar) returned to Golarion and rounded up every single high-level hero who had performed similar great deeds. (Yes, even the heroes of House Thrune, as token evil teammates.) They formed the heroic organization known as the "Planar Avengers," who are currently split into two teams. The smaller team constantly skirmishes against Tar-Baphon in the Isle of Dread. The larger team is busy waging a crusade across the Lower Planes, proactively taking the fight to the many archfiends who unrelentingly try to stage extraplanar invasions against Golarion. This organization and its many subteams are celebrated in many songs and books.

It is among the handwavier of solutions, but if it works to keep the status quo, then it works.

[Darth Game Master]

I like to think that not all of the APs have to have been completed by high level characters unless you either played through them or it's a problem that only high level characters could handle. And even for the latter, you could always use established high-level NPCs.

[PossibleCabbage]

If you don't have actual PCs left standing at the end of the AP, but you still want them to have been accomplished since you're not going to backtrack and do them later, then just put assign all those NPCs to maintaining all those things that you, as the GM, aren't really interested in changing.

Like if you want to say "I want Nirmathas to be stable and prosperous, because I don't want to set an adventure there" then just say that's what the Ironfang crew is up to, assuming you didn't play that one (if you did, ask the people who did play it what they want their characters to be up to.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Colette Brunel wrote:

If a given party is the type to settle down and effectively run a given nation, then that nation is effectively immune to high-level threats. I do not think Ravounel/Kintargo, Minkai/Kasai, or Korvosa, for example, are going to be threatened by anything major any time soon.

You are wrong. For instance, in the LOWG, much is made of the Ravounel government's military weakness vis a vis its nobles, who unlike in Andoran or Galt were allowed to keep all their property other than in slaves - even the ones who supported the government - and who manage to deal in slaves anyway because the government can't stop them. The same problem becomes a plot point in Age of Ashes. You'd think that a group of 17th-level PCs would have some sway in affairs, but the answer is an emphatic "no!"

[zimmerwald1915]

Colette Brunel wrote:

Then what is the default assumption for these great and heroic adventurers who completed the adventure paths? Is it purely left for the GM to decide how they are shaping the world nowadays?

That the NPCs managed to muddle through without the need of saviors, thank you very much.

[Colette Brunel]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

You are wrong. For instance, in the LOWG, much is made of the Ravounel government's military weakness vis a vis its nobles, who unlike in Andoran or Galt were allowed to keep all their property other than in slaves - even the ones who supported the government - and who manage to deal in slaves anyway because the government can't stop them. The same problem becomes a plot point in Age of Ashes. You'd think that a group of 17th-level PCs would have some sway in affairs, but the answer is an emphatic "no!"

That is mainly because the Lost Omens World Guide tries to avoid touching on the topic of those near-max-level, if not max-level, adventurers as much as possible. It still inevitably has to mention them from time to time, but the book tries to ignore their existence for the most part.

Suffice it to say, if a 20th-level, say, bard wants to sway the masses of their home nation's commoners and noble houses in one fell swoop, they could probably manage it without much trouble.

[PossibleCabbage]

I feel like a GM is going to edit things in the LOWG based on actual campaign events and preferences of the players who piloted those characters in the campaign. It's just like how a GM is going to need to edit an AP on the fly based on some things their players did.

Like our Hell's Rebels game went very differently in a few places (chosen almost entirely for the way the name sounded) two of our Silver Ravens were an Aulorian and a Delronge, who stood to inherit if enough people were assassinated, which changes the leverage somewhat.

[zimmerwald1915]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I feel like a GM is going to edit things in the LOWG based on actual campaign events and preferences of the players who piloted those characters in the campaign. It's just like how a GM is going to need to edit an AP on the fly based on some things their players did.

Like our Hell's Rebels game went very differently in a few places (chosen almost entirely for the way the name sounded) two of our Silver Ravens were an Aulorian and a Delronge, who stood to inherit if enough people were assassinated, which changes the leverage somewhat.

Pretty sure that only makes the state of things in the LOWG more likely in your game, not less.