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I don't know if this was a typo or what, but I originally built a character who was very good at demoralizing. I later read that demoralize only works on 1 opponent for 1 round and that's it for the rest of the fight. So you can demoralize each enemy on the battlefield once, not quite though, whether you fail or succeed you can't again for the whole fight (10 mins). I was of the the understanding you could spend an action each round to attempt a demoralize check, that happened to be worth speccing into Intimidation. But now with this restriction I don't know if intended or not, is just extremely disappointing. Why would anyone spend multiple skill feats and spec towards this instead of something more useful like Medicine for example (which the designers built quite nicely). Why not have a skill feat at a higher level allow you to use it more frequently against an enemy like you have with Continual Recovery for Medicine (another great thing the designers did).
Regardless of your result, the target is temporarily immune to your attempts to Demoralize it for 10 minutes.
You can demoralize all the enemies you want, only the target of demoralize that becomes immune to further demoralize attempts from you (meaning that other character can attempt to demoralize too if they wish).
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You could very well be the only member of the party who has a high charisma and has Intimidate, I wouldn't expect 3 party members to all be specd for Intimidate. Why not make the enemy immune for one round after an attempt rather then the entire fight (even one round is a substantial restriction)
Note that demoralize doesn't have a set duration. You inflict Frightened 1 or Frightened 2, and those conditions reduce per their normal rules. So on a crit success you would have it last through two of the demoralized foe's turns.
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Right but just as often as critting your going to fail outright.
My only real complaint is that since it ticks down on your opponent's turn initiative order ends up having a really strong impact on how valuable your debuffs are.
But that's more a general issue with debuffs than anything wrong with demoralize.
because being able to easily give -1 to EVERYTHING for 1 action is too good to be able to spam it.
Intimidate is good to "setup" your attacks and spells, not to keep an enemy under a constant debuff.
plus, if you crit it, it's -2 on the first round, -1 on the second round.
Spam every round for an action, but like I said every other round restriction would be ok. It's not like your going to Demoralize enemy every time that Will save isn't automatic, far from it Infact.
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From what I saw, a dedicated Demoralizer can actually pump their Demoralize modifier so high in comparison to the enemy Will DC +10, that they are asking less "did I succeed?" and more "did I crit?". Getting spammable Demoralize would really create a degenerate spiral.
It depends.
Level 7 Salamander has a will DC of 23. That's it's low save.
A level 7 optimized Bard with versatile performance has 7(level) + 6(master Performance)+4(cha)+2(virtuosic performer)+1(item)= +20. Crits on a 13-20, 40%. Fails 10% of the time.
Level 7 Rhemoraz is will DC 20. Crits 55% of the time.
Level 7 Greater Barghest will DC 22. 45% crit.
Level 7 Algolthu Master will DC 26. 25% crit.
Level 7 Shaitan will DC 25. 30% crit.
Level 7 Succubus will DC 27. 20% crit.
Level 7 Ogre Boss will DC 25(!!). 30% crit.
Level 7 Stegosaurus will DC 23. 40%.
Pretty reasonable chance of a crit, very good chance of a success.
Of course, it's harder for non-bards to both max Cha and get a competence bonus. You need to have a Rogue talent (and kill someone) or have a 20 Str skill feat to get the full +2 competence bonus from other sources I can think of. Other classes may also have less incentive to maximize their intimidate skill ASAP.
I guess a polymath Bard who picks up Spell Penetration from Wizard MC is the best single target save or suck caster in the game. Pretty reliable -2 or -3 to saves without outside help.
I think this actually ends up being fairly similar to some of the complaints I've seen a few people have about Focus powers. They want to build around focus powers, and have a big enough focus pool to be a full time focus user, but that is not possible. But not being able to use focus powers in every round of combat doesn't make them useless at all.
Intimidate gives you the same basic framework. It gives an ability that does not rely on resources you use to fuel other abilities, and can be a very effective option in your toolkit, but it isn't something that you can always use every round (since you need the actions to spare, targets that aren't mindless, and targets that are not yet immune to you).
I think that investment in the skill (which is also a handy option to have in not combat situations that call for it, not that niche) is definitely something worthy of consideration.
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Demoralize can be a very strong option. Especially if you and/or other party members take certain class feats: a barbarian (probably with the Intimidating Prowess skill feat) with Raging Intimidation, Rogue Dedication, and Basic Trickery (You're Next) paired with a rogue with Dread Striker can do quite a bit of damage.
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Demoralize can be a very strong option. Especially if you and/or other party members take certain class feats: a barbarian (probably with the Intimidating Prowess skill feat) with Raging Intimidation, Rogue Dedication, and Basic Trickery (You're Next) paired with a rogue with Dread Striker can do quite a bit of damage.
Planets need to align for that, a lot of things need to click there.
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Dragon Monks are probably the best debuffers in this regard as they can keep one enemy frightened the whole fight.
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Going by that list of level 7 monsters, a person w/ Master Intimidate & Assurance can auto-Demoralize half of the monsters.
That's without Charisma investment, no items, and not even Intimidating Glare (since there are no penalties w/ Assurance).
All for one action.
Some Fighter builds capitalize on that, while to a Rogue that's minimal investment, perhaps with a "You're Next!" attached. That's a pretty sweet debuff compared to many spells, class feats, & compositions.
It's like a low-level ability quickened, making it mid-level. Being able to spam it would be vicious.
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Demoralize can be a very strong option. Especially if you and/or other party members take certain class feats: a barbarian (probably with the Intimidating Prowess skill feat) with Raging Intimidation, Rogue Dedication, and Basic Trickery (You're Next) paired with a rogue with Dread Striker can do quite a bit of damage.Planets need to align for that, a lot of things need to click there.
The barbarian uses one action (or a reaction after downing a foe) to demoralize a target and on a success, the target is frightened 1 (frightened 2 on a critical success); while frightened, the target is flat-footed against the rogue's attacks. This isn't a "planets need to align" thing, just a successful demoralize and basic teamwork* (the rogue attacks the demoralized target while they're frightened). Note that Raging Intimidation gives Intimidating Glare for free (removing the penalty for language/hearing).
A similar pairing using a fighter with Intimidating Strike instead of a barbarian can also work.
*- some groups are better at this than others, but that's a player issue and not a rules/mechanics issue
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Demoralize is pretty good, as everyone has already mentioned.
To add to this, Intimidate also has lots of out of combat uses. It's not like you training it gives you only Demoralize.
And Scare to Death, while coming very late in a hero's career, doesn't share an immunity with demoralize. So you'll eventually be able to frighten an enemy twice per combat.
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I can imagine many Barbarians going the Intimidation route, Raging Intimidation gives you three feats for the price of one and Intimidating Prowess is just a good idea. Planets do not need to align for a modestly well-built Barbarian to become lethal at Demoralise.
Tangentially, given that boosting Cha is sensible for many Barbarians now, and the free level boosts, I do epect to see a lot of Sorc MCs, people going for a Bloodrager/Dragon Disciple thing. Cool, but I digress.
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I think demoralize is similar to the effects of "Get 'Em". Starfinder also has a demoralize action, but it only applies 'Shaken', which only affects attack rolls, saving throws, and skills. Get 'Em applies to AC indirectly by buffing allies attack rolls.
Because it can be used each round, that +5% accuracy (and even more so, the +10% accuracy from improved Get 'Em) is considered incredibly strong. It is basically a must-pick for anyone playing an Envoy character. And it is generally considered a must-have for any fully optimized combat team.
It sounds to me like the PF2 design team didn't want Demoralize to be a must-pick for Pathfinder.
Is it too weak? Maybe.
But seriously, how many rounds does an enemy live? How many more rounds does an enemy live after it has been debuffed in both its offense and defense statistics and the entire team focus fires on it?
Do you really need Demoralize to last more than one round per enemy in order to be effective?