Reporting 2nd ed games?


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Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

Is this in the works? Is there a page for the new edition for PFS yet?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

2E material is not set up in the system to report yet. Paizo is working on it

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I just checked and it looks like 2e scenarios are showing up in the list as of today! (Don't have my reporting sheets with me right now to test if it all goes through though... will try tonight!)

Will be nice to officially have my first glyph between my local GMing and GenCon (but I suspect it'll take a while for GenCon's 2e backlog to get processed, very impressed at how efficient HQ staff was, but I know that's hard to replicate post-con).

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

1-00 is showing as a repeatable in the reporting system and I think that's a mistake. (At least there's no tags on the scenario).

Dataphiles 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵

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NielsenE wrote:
1-00 is showing as a repeatable in the reporting system and I think that's a mistake. (At least there's no tags on the scenario).

Also, please note that totals for Glyph purposes and AcP calculations ate not implemented yet, or are not working correctly.

Or so I have observed.

2/5

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Hardware the Tech wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
1-00 is showing as a repeatable in the reporting system and I think that's a mistake. (At least there's no tags on the scenario).

Also, please note that totals for Glyph purposes and AcP calculations ate not implemented yet, or are not working correctly.

Or so I have observed.

Yes, but I assume missing features are known/being worked on, while errors of content are possibly unknown and should be reported.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

It's just nice to report things!

Hmm

Paizo Employee 5/5 Organized Play Manager

NielsenE wrote:
Hardware the Tech wrote:
NielsenE wrote:
1-00 is showing as a repeatable in the reporting system and I think that's a mistake. (At least there's no tags on the scenario).

Also, please note that totals for Glyph purposes and AcP calculations ate not implemented yet, or are not working correctly.

Or so I have observed.

Yes, but I assume missing features are known/being worked on, while errors of content are possibly unknown and should be reported.

Absolutely!

1-00 being repeatable was confusion on my part and I've fixed it now.

AcP not showing is known and being worked on.

Glyphs should show up under Stars and Novas. Again, known and being resolved.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Related to this, playing seems to assign 4AcP, while GMing only gives 1.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

That might be due to the premier event effect and they may be working out those details. Remember, a premier or premier plus event awards more AcP than a standard event, but AFAIK those distinctions have to be entered manually.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

I am looking at non premier events, which should be 4 AcP for Playing (correct) and 8AcP for GMing (incorrectly showing 1).

Dataphiles 4/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵

Any they are also missing the 1 GM credit towards Glyphs, but Tonya says that they are working on that in a thread in the Website Feedback forum.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—NSW—Sydney aka sanwah68

Bob Jonquet wrote:
That might be due to the premier event effect and they may be working out those details. Remember, a premier or premier plus event awards more AcP than a standard event, but AFAIK those distinctions have to be entered manually.

Going to be reporting a Con over the weekend. Do I have to do anything to make sure the AcPs are correct?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Sandra Wilkinson wrote:
Going to be reporting a Con over the weekend. Do I have to do anything to make sure the AcPs are correct?

Unless your event has been pre-approved to be a premier event, it will follow the standard AcP schedule. Report it normally and the points will populate automatically once they finish setting it up in the system.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—NSW—Sydney aka sanwah68

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Sandra Wilkinson wrote:
Going to be reporting a Con over the weekend. Do I have to do anything to make sure the AcPs are correct?
Unless your event has been pre-approved to be a premier event, it will follow the standard AcP schedule. Report it normally and the points will populate automatically once they finish setting it up in the system.

Thanks, Bob. My understanding is that Cons that get Con support are considered Premium events as far as AcPs are concerned with the biggest Cons being a different category. I was just making sure we were right to report these events without having to do some weird things to get the right points.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Not exactly. As I understand it, all events that qualify as conventions (15+ tables, plus other requirements) receive support. That looks a little different now that boons are going digital. It still means GMs receive scenarios for free and the event receives vouchers. The value of the AcP is standard for players and GMs.

Premier conventions are spotlight events probably at the tier 1 (75+ tables) level. In addition to more vouchers, the value of the AcP goes up per the Guide. As I understand it, these events must be designated by the RVC and approved by Tonya. As the Premier Event Coordinator, I may be involved in that approval process and will be working with Tonya and the event organizer to make sure the event is classified correctly so the participants receive the correct AcP values. AFAIK the Paizo system will have to be manually notified about these events so it can trigger the higher rate of AcP. Generally, 1-2 Paizo staff members will be present at these events.

Premier Plus conventions are significant spotlight events that generally include direct sponsorship from Paizo. Currently, this includes Gen Con, PaizoCon (US), Origins, Pax Unplugged, and UK Games Expo. These events receive an even higher AcP value (see the Guide) as well as perks such as volunteer t-shirts, physical product support, and other bonuses. Numerous Paizo staffs generally attend these events.

Normal reoccuring Gamedays at your local lodge will receive standard AcP.

Its a little "fuzzy" what happens with respect to RSP events. It appears these will continue to be events that do not qualify as Premier conventions, yet are approved by the RVC for more than the standard Gameday rewards. In 1E this meant special boons to award to participants, however, now that boons are digital, the info is a bit hazy. They may qualify for Premier event treatment, which means a higher AcP rate, but that means a designated RSP event which could have as few as one table a month might receive a better AcP rate than a convention with 50 tables. Seems a bit odd. We'll need clarification from Tonya how its supposed to work.

Seeing as the purpose of the RSP program was to provide boon accessibility to players/GMs who could not attend conventions, and now that we have digital boons available to everyone, IMO there is no longer a need for an RSP program and it probably should be eliminated at least with respect to any PFS(2) events and SFS once those boons go digital. I expect RSP for PFS(1) will continue in perpetuity though we won't see any new boons produced so eventually it will lose nearly all its value once everyone has all the boons.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—NSW—Sydney aka sanwah68

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I must admit to be a bit surprised at this turn of events, I had obviously misread the various communications. It does seems a bit weird that out of my Con GMs, SFS and PFS1 GMs receive a race boon, but PFS2 GMs receive the same award as GMs of a home game. I realise that we are very much in the infancy of this scheme, but hope there is some more thought given to the tiering of the points.

An additional comment would be that, again, this will probably exclude a lot of countries with smaller populations from ever getting anything but standard points.

Dark Archive 5/5

Another quirk this brings up it that under the PFS1/SFS system, GMing both systems at a con gave you the choice of a boon for either. With the new system does that still apply to PFS1/SFS if you’re also GMing PFS2 games (likely at local cons)? If SFS boons are also going digital in the future, in the scenario of GMing SFS and PFS2 at the same local con, a GM earns only a little bit of benefit for each (in a compressed time) vs. getting a tangible reward for having helped at the con.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Sandra Wilkinson wrote:
GMs receive a race boon, but PFS2 GMs receive the same award as GMs of a home game

You have to consider that GMs at conventions are likely earning many more AcP than a local gameday because they are running multiple sessions in a short period of time. The points earned roughly replicate the value of receiving a race boon under the PFS(1) system.

Also, we need to be careful how liberal we are applying boosted AcP awards so we don't wind up flooding the community and inadvertently devaluing the boons.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

DrParty06 wrote:
Another quirk...

They are still earning many more AcP in a short window than they would at a local event. Like most things there is a cost involved when you provide greater choice. The new system is much more flexible since the player can choose which reward they want rather than getting a race boon they are not interested in playing or something else that doesn't fit with any of their characters. While splitting your GMing across two systems will mean less AcP for either, it still advances them in both categories towards that next boons they really want. If they really want a specific race boon, they can choose to just focus on GMing the one system. The key element is that they have more control over their rewards.

Scarab Sages ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Netherlands aka CptJames

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Premier conventions are spotlight events probably at the tier 1 (75+ tables) level.

Premier Plus conventions are significant spotlight events that generally include direct sponsorship from Paizo. Currently, this includes Gen Con, PaizoCon (US), Origins, Pax Unplugged, and UK Games Expo. These events receive an even higher AcP value (see the Guide) as well as perks such as volunteer t-shirts, physical product support, and other bonuses. Numerous Paizo staffs generally attend these events.

Normal reoccuring Gamedays at your local lodge will receive standard AcP

I have a question regarding this, is there a list of conventions that are 75+ tables currently that aren't in the Premier Plus events you listed please?

I'd be very curious, because I'm not sure many conventions in Europe will hit this for example. And would PaizoCon UK be Premier Plus or Premier for example?

We ran our biggest convention in the Netherlands (we have 2 a year for the whole country) and it got 26 tables. We're never going to get to Premier, so it's just like that entire convention which gets people from all the world, will be worth the same as our normal Wednesday night tables, and that is slightly concerning if I'm honest.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Sandra Wilkinson wrote:
GMs receive a race boon, but PFS2 GMs receive the same award as GMs of a home game
You have to consider that GMs at conventions are likely earning many more AcP than a local gameday because they are running multiple sessions in a short period of time. The points earned roughly replicate the value of receiving a race boon under the PFS(1) system.

I don't really buy this argument. "You get more points because you spent more time running games" isn't something special about a con, it's just a reflection of the time invested. Most GMs could run more games at home if they wanted and not have to pay for travel and lodging.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

Quote:

Premier conventions are spotlight events probably at the tier 1 (75+ tables) level. In addition to more vouchers, the value of the AcP goes up per the Guide. As I understand it, these events must be designated by the RVC and approved by Tonya. As the Premier Event Coordinator, I may be involved in that approval process and will be working with Tonya and the event organizer to make sure the event is classified correctly so the participants receive the correct AcP values. AFAIK the Paizo system will have to be manually notified about these events so it can trigger the higher rate of AcP. Generally, 1-2 Paizo staff members will be present at these events.

Premier Plus conventions are significant spotlight events that generally include direct sponsorship from Paizo. Currently, this includes Gen Con, PaizoCon (US), Origins, Pax Unplugged, and UK Games Expo. These events receive an even higher AcP value (see the Guide) as well as perks such as volunteer t-shirts, physical product support, and other bonuses. Numerous Paizo staffs generally attend these events.

Bob please list me the number of events in the last 5 years in continental europe that would quailfy as a premium event. This aproach is b$@~!&$#, as it encoureages something I would be happy to get rid off: Cheesing your tablecount upwards. And there are a lot of ways that can be used to inflate your table count.

So the "benefit" of the system that events get more ACP will not be available on a continent because the limits are stupidly high. Additionally with the boons being retracted to the ACP system there is literally no incentive left for anyone to GM at a normal convention as they get the same number of ACPs (read: boons) as if they would run the game non publicly in their cellar for their friends. So I strongly recommend to not limit premium above anything that was not already a convention becasue if not this will lead to a lot of conventions dying becasue there is no incentive to GM on a convention.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Alexander Lenz wrote:
This aproach is b&@@&&%!

Hey, that's uncalled for. Let's dial it down. I didn't write these rules, I am merely explaining them as I understand them. Please don't shoot the messenger*.

If you want to know what events in your region are/will be approved for premier status, I suggest you speak to your RVC who (as I understand it) will be tasked with identifying them. Given that this is a completely new system, I'm sure there will be additions and changes to its functionality over time, but like Tonya regularly says, they want to see new rules in practice before they decide what is/not working as expected and what to do about it.

I would hope that RVC/VCs are dialed into their areas such that if organizers are misrepresenting their table counts, it will be discovered and appropriate action taken. Convention rewards have always been based on event size so this is nothing new.

As far as incentive, I have always been and always will be of the mindset that people are largely gonna do what they want to do. If you want to sit in your basement playing once a week (or whatever) and slowly earning AcP, great, the system allows for that. If you want to be involved in the community and give back to all the awesome GMs who run for you, by running games for others, great, go to a convention and earn a trunk-load of AcP in a few short days.

IMO, the fun of the game, meeting and hanging out with fellow gamers, etc. is incentive enough to play/GM. Rewards/boons are icing on the cake and shouldn't be the end-all, be-all, of the reason someone attends an event. Some will disagree with me and that's fine. We all have to define "GoodRightFun" for ourselves and its not the same universally. I just choose to place a higher value on altruism over incentives, but in this instance it doesn't matter what my value position is because I'm not the one making the rules. I just operate within them.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

*Off-topic/personal:
I know people's emotions are high given that a lot of 2E/PFS(2) is a significant change to what they are used to, but in less than two weeks since Gen Con, I have been blasted on four separate occasions for simply relaying information regarding new rules additions that I had zero part in creating. There is a difference between arguing over rules interpretations and scolding someone for explaining how something works.

Given how busy Paizo staff is, it falls to us to try and answer a lot of the questions coming from the community otherwise they will go unanswered. Its no secret that many of our community leaders avoid forum posting because of a history of being repeatedly blasted. If this continues, I can follow suit and avoid the forums too. I have broad shoulders and a thick skin else I wouldn't have lasted as long as I have, but everyone has limits. Please consider that when you respond to someone's comments.

Maybe its part my own fault for not explaining my new role in more detail, but to be perfectly honest we are still working out the particulars. If people are reading my comments and assuming all this is my doing, then there is a breakdown in communication somewhere and as the Premier Event Coordinator I have to take ownership of that.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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This boils down to "If you have questions ask your RVCs, though be aware that the system is still in the implementation phase".

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

Quote:
Please don't shoot the messenger*.

Thanks for completely ignoring the raised concerns bob.

Quote:
If you want to be involved in the community and give back to all the awesome GMs who run for you, by running games for others, great, go to a convention and earn a trunk-load of AcP in a few short days.

How do I do that?

1.) As I wrote earlier there is NO convention that qualifies under this system.
2.) I get more ACP for running 2 tables in the time it takes me to drive to a con and gm 1 table there (if I look for the next premium + convention there is still no relation between effort needed and output in ACP.

Quote:
Rewards/boons are icing on the cake and shouldn't be the end-all, be-all, of the reason someone attends an event. Some will disagree with me and that's fine.

As someone who has to do conventions (with less than 75 tables) I will have no incentive for my GMs to show up.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

...and don't be surprised if they don't have an immediate answer as we are still figuring out exactly how the new system will work. Tonya is still traveling quite a bit which makes communication slower.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

Quote:
...and don't be surprised if they don't have an immediate answer as we are still figuring out exactly how the new system will work. Tonya is still traveling quite a bit which makes communication slower.

So why are these things not decided BEFORE a system launches? It is not that PF2s release happened outr of nowehre.

And are these numbers you told us final or are they a work in progress?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Alexander Lenz wrote:
thanks for completely ignoring the raised concerns bob

I didn't ignore anything. I gave you the answer-talk to your RVC about it. As I said, we are still figuring out how all this works and I did use the word "probably" when I identified the tier 1 level since that has been a trigger point for the past few years for prompting Paizo staff presence.

Its not my job to address raised concerns outside of making sure, to the best of my ability, that the community knows what the rules are. If you're looking for a shoulder to cry on, sorry, I'm not your guy. And the obvious difference between "I don't think will work for us, here is why, can we consider this option" as opposed to "this is b@@#+&!#." That latter isn't gonna get much a positive response from me.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Alexander Lenz wrote:
So why are these things not decided BEFORE a system launches? It is not that PF2s release happened outr of nowehre

I never said they weren't decided. We (OPF volunteers) are still figuring out what the exact rules are and given that Tonya is not 100% accessible due to travel and she is effectively doing two full-time jobs, we are patiently waiting for her to become available to clarify. It should be no surprise to anyone that with the massive amount of change that was implemented and that we have only been operating under these changes for two weeks, not everyone is 100% knowledgeable exactly, precisely how everything will work.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

So to put it in friendlier words:
Please consider that there is currently no 75+ table convention in the whole of continental europe and that means all of continental europe will have only one speed to get ACP as there is also no premium+ convention there.

So if this gets implemented as you suggested you tell all players in continetal europe that there is no difference (regarding ACP) between going to a convention or GMing for your buddies at home.

You can also look at James Hargraves post who is raising similar concerns.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

As far as I know the latest official word is still this table in the PFS2 Guide.

In the header, it distinguishes three tiers of events: Standard, Premium and Premium Plus.

Standard events include games played in private residences and many public venues. Premier events include many conventions and special events designated by the Regional Venture-Coordinator. Premier Plus events include special shows (such as the Gen Con, Origins, and PaizoCon conventions) where Pathfinder Society has a special presence and often debuts major adventures.

So unless something's been changed and not yet published, this is the policy.

Standard covers both home basement games and store game days. Premium covers any conventions that the RVC puts a stamp on. Premium Plus is a handful of things designated by Paizo HQ.

@Bob you seem to be spreading a different version that omits the middle tier, is that a new policy?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Maybe that's their intention, I don't know. Most of the rules we have aren't as effective in some areas as others. That's one of the reasons we give the RVCs a lot of discretionary powers to make decisions that work for their unique areas. If we say premier must be tier 1, then a lot of regions are left out. If we universally say they only need to be tier 2, then there are hundreds of events in high density areas, like much of the US, where AcP will be overly awarded.

Maybe the general rule is/will be that a premier event must be tier 1, but the RVC has the authority to over-ride that and request something else. Or maybe each RVC will be given a finite number of premier events in their region to issue out. That might make it more "fair," but then creates issues when new events spring up that may be larger than existing ones and how we adjudicate that.

That's the type of constructive feedback we need to provide so Tonya can not only identify where something is a possible issue, but how to deal with it.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
@Bob you seem to be spreading a different version that omits the middle tier, is that a new policy?

Nope. If you read my explanation post up thread, you'll see I identified standard events, premier events, and premier plus events. There is also the issue of how RSP fits into this and we haven't even touched on charity events and if they represent anything other than what is above.

If we simply leave it at RVC discretion, there will be a lot of questions as to what parameters they are using to determine which event gets designated and which doesn't. In more than one discussion I was involved in the subject of tier 1 came up as a possible toggle for premier status. I am merely sharing that as a possible clarification since there is no additional guidance in the Guide. If it turns out that premier status is 100% the discretion of the RVC with no hint of guidelines to help adjudicate, I am perfectly fine with that. I trust the RVCs to do the right thing for their regions, but experience has demonstrated not everyone shares that opinion and want hard and firm rules for determining these sorts of issues. If we want that, I can guarantee people are going to be disappointed with the outcome.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

Quote:
If we simply leave it at RVC discretion, there will be a lot of questions as to what parameters they are using to determine which event gets designated and which doesn't. In more than one discussion I was involved in the subject of tier 1 came up as a possible toggle for premier status.

How many of these came form persons out of high density areas (like America)?

As I asked eralier how many (non premium+ (so paizoconUK and UK-Games Expo) 75+ table conventions are there in Europe (which is now the sphere of 4? RVCs)

So you want an whole continent to work on a "exception" basis? Maybe just use a rule that also fits for at least 1/4th of the system.

Quote:
I gave you the answer-talk to your RVC about it.

I did.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

From the perspective of the world outside the US, there's no meaningful difference between tier 1 (75+ tables) and spotlight conventions. As far as I can tell there are no tier 1 conventions outside the US.

So I'd say that's far, far too high to set the bar.

It's also turning table quantity into goal in itself. Is dedicated PFS a convention with a lot of PFS tables really the best convention for PFS? What about conventions where PFS is not such a big player, but has a lot of access to recruit new people?

I think arbitrary (and yes, tier 1 is just an arbitrary number) cutoffs are a bad idea. It's "one size fits all" policy that doesn't fit most of the world.

So yeah, put me down for significant RVC discretion to set a policy that works well for their region.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Alexander Lenz wrote:
Maybe just use a rule that also fits for at least 1/4th of the system

Maybe suggest one that can be reasonably applied to the entire world and let Tonya decide if she wants to change to it?

To be fair, if Europe's table count is so low that they cannot attract more than minimum tier events, then I seriously doubt it represents 1/4 of the community, but I admit, that's not really relevant and probably sounds a bit dickish. Sorry, just saying let's try to stick to verifiable numbers. I cannot tell you how many tier 1 events there are around the world since (1) I was not responsible for anything outside of the Great Lakes, and (2) since that may require the reporting system, something beyond our access, we may have to wait to hear from Tonya about that, unless the individual RVCs want to share their numbers. Ask me again next year and I may be able to tell you precisely which events ranking high in tables counts.

Not including premier plus events like Origins and Gen Con, I believe the Great Lakes, prior to the realignment hosted something in the neighborhood of 5-6 tier 1 conventions annually. It fluctuated because a few events teetered above and below the limit over the years.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
So yeah, put me down for significant RVC discretion to set a policy that works well for their region.

I think that's a reasonable request, though I would add that there should be a limit to the number of events designated so we don't just approve them all.

We also need to watch for things like one region have significantly more premier events than others. Real numbers may not be as effective for this as ratios or a percentage of events. Dunno about that without knowing what the numbers actually are.

For regions with a lot of potentially premier events, we might have to rotate which ones get the nod each year to spread the wealth. This might be especially important for regions that have significant geography since it makes attending premier events that much more difficult.

Dark Archive 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

Quote:
...then I seriously doubt it represents 1/4 of the community...

Auke, Nils, Benoit, Dave are 4 RVCs that are (mostly) active in europe, exactly 1/4th of the available RVCs and so at least 4 RVCs would have to work exclusively on exceptions for their premium conventions.

Quote:
Sorry, just saying let's try to stick to verifiable numbers.

The three biggest events in continental europe I have numbers of (I do not have conctact to the French so there might be one convention I am missing) AB-Con, Confusion and Gardencon all have less than 75 tables.

So if for your region 5-6 events meet the criteria how about a rule like "The biggest 5 (or 6) events in an RVCs region + events specifically chosen by the RVC to promote organized play are premium conventions"

This is just a quick and dirty suggestion as I have no access to the numbers of the other RVCs.

Quote:
Ask me again next year and I may be able to tell you precisely which events ranking high in tables counts.

While this might be interesting this still creates a big problem for the smaller regions as they will never get to these big table counts.

It might be also the case that in europe there is a differenct convention culture. I am helping in organizing the one of the 4 big RPG-conventions in Germany and we have around 1500 Attendants, with quite a lot of them being there for tabletops and not RPGs, so if we get 100 to organized play (which has also competition by the organized play for DSA, which is a quite big RPG in Germany) we are quite lucky.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Alexander Lenz wrote:
how about a rule like "The biggest 5 (or 6) events in an RVCs region + events specifically chosen by the RVC to promote organized play are premium conventions"

Interesting, though one piece we are missing is roughly how many events Tonya wants to be designated as premier. Given that we now have 17 regions (including online) that would put us at 85 premier events before they even started choosing discretionary events. I don't think we know yet if that is too high or too low a number based on how they want to see AcP awarded.

Even still, IMO we would need to have some guideline or limit on the discretionary ones to prevent all events from becoming premier. The point as I understand it is to showcase these events. If every (or nearly) event is premier, then the tag loses value.

If table count is an antiquated way to evaluate events, then why not just give each RVC, three discretionary premier events this year and then once we have some real data and feedback, Tonya can decide to expand or adjust the program. This would give us 51 permier events world-wide on top of the five premier plus events.

Course we also need to get clarification on how RSP is going to work in PFS(2). If we are going to approve any/all Gameday events for premier status like we did with RSP, then there is not point in continuing to mess with conventions.

Scarab Sages ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Agent, Netherlands aka CptJames

I would assume that ANZOP wouldn't hit a 75+ table minimum either. Feel free to correct me. But having lived there for 15+ years and knowing travel costs like I do. That is extremely expensive.

So that's quite a large % of area/population that isn't hitting!

Look. I'm going to talk to my RVC like you suggested Bob, that's no problem. Just giving my opinion here.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Sorry, just saying let's try to stick to verifiable numbers. I cannot tell you how many tier 1 events there are around the world since (1) I was not responsible for anything outside of the Great Lakes, and (2) since that may require the reporting system, something beyond our access, we may have to wait to hear from Tonya about that, unless the individual RVCs want to share their numbers. Ask me again next year and I may be able to tell you precisely which events ranking high in tables counts.

I don't think you can make very good policy using numerical limits if you don't know how many events would meet those limits.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Bob Jonquet wrote:
If table count is an antiquated way to evaluate events,

I think it is, it really disadvantages recruitment conventions.

Bob Jonquet wrote:
then why not just give each RVC, three discretionary premier events this year

Taking our region for example, how would you fairly spread those over:

Belarus, Belgium (Flemish), Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Latvia, Netherlands, Norway, Russia, South Africa, and Sweden.

Belgium (Flemish) and the Netherlands share a language. I think Denmark/Norway/Sweden are barely linguistically compatible, but I don't think it's going to be a really smooth convention. The rest of these countries are quite remote from each other and also have big language barriers.

To pick another region, what's a good way to spread three premier conventions over: China, Hawaii, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Okinawa, Philippines, Singapore, and Eastern Asia?

I'm not trying to be nasty, but these off the cuff numbers don't really that work so well outside the US.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Maybe all those areas don't get a premier event. Or maybe we rotate them so more locations have a chance to experience it without flooding the community with too many AcP. The same can happen in high density areas too. Maybe three tier 1 conventions in a US region is a similar percentage of the overall regional OPF community as three tier 4 conventions are in Asia-Pacific. I dunno, and I would guess most of us don't either.

If it is too easy to earn AcP, then they'll just raise the minimum requirements for the boon and make them cost more. Now that boons are going digital, Paizo should be able to track exactly how many are purchased and which ones are more popular. They could trend where the AcP are going based on the GPS locations of the reported events and adjust the system requirements so there is a more equitable distribution.

Discretion is not unlimited. We will still need to have some limiting parameters even with providing the RVCs discretion. You have to have limits somewhere or there is chaos. IMO the issue is more about awarding headcount than event numbers anyway, but as I said, without knowing what the numbers are all I can do is pull a random conservative limit. I'm not saying three IS the limit, but it could be a place to start. What matters more to me is that there is a relatively equal representation of AcP per participant being issued, but in order to analyze that we need access to the reporting data which is not something Paizo has been particularly forthcoming.

Also, keep in mind that since the system is programmed for standard AcP disbursements, any premier and premier plus events will have to be manually coded. Knowing that it is not something that volunteers can do directly and that Tonya is already doing the work of two full-time jobs (OPM and ExD of OPF) if we aren't careful in limiting how much of a burden its gonna be to code the boosted AcP values all we'll do is create a bottleneck where no one is getting the proper points and there will be a lot of complaining.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

How would raising the points devalue the boons? I would say it would put it right back at what it was. The current baseline is that you GM one slot at a convention, you earn a race boon. And a convention is clearly defined.
This is a baseline we had for Pathfinder for years, and Starfinder adopted this baseline as well. But suddenly for PF2 this is de-valued.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

So the RSP is going to be the same as a home game?

Is there anything that will be used to replace the boons given in the stores for the other two Society games? I had though it would have been AcP, but from everything that is known thus far, that is not the case. Though I think PFS is likely going to be at the retail locations rather than reporting sessions played at home most of the time, saving the reward of bigger points for conventions and such seems like a stark change to how PF1 was being done.

I hope that the Gen Con PF2 games are reported soon, and the page for PF2 is added to the site.

Hopefully, we can have some sort of award other than standard AcP for RSP at some point and that can be awarded retroactively for those that already have played at an RSP.

Thank you, Bob, for all your explanations.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

@Bob: you seem to be rating premium events as some kind of superstar convention, but there's nothing else between the handful of spotlight conventions and playing with your friends in the basement.

As far as I can make out from the table in the Guide, premium events basically are basically the PFS2 equivalent to GM/player convention boons for PFS1 and SFS. If you don't give a convention that, then it doesn't really get much more than a home game.

And that would be a bad thing. Particularly because SFS and PFS1 do get that support. So there would be this weird incentive saying "go GM/play stuff except the new game we're launching, we're not supporting that at conventions".

If you're really saying that South-Africa shouldn't get a premium event because there's a danger people are getting too much ACP (twice as much per game!) because Finland already got one, then maybe GenCon also shouldn't get it (FOUR times as much!).

The Exchange 1/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm sure that Tonya and the powers that be will have the "official" ruling and word for us soon. Until then all we have are opinions and best guesses but no facts. Since the ACPs are not live yet it really doesn't matter for the nonce. Wild speculation seems to just be making people sound angry at each other when no one knows how things will work yet! We will all just have to wait and have patience till the rules clarified.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
If you're really saying that South-Africa shouldn't get a premium event because there's a danger people are getting too much ACP (twice as much per game!) because Finland already got one, then maybe GenCon also shouldn't get it (FOUR times as much!).

I made a mistake, the difference in ACP between Standard, Premium and Premium Plus is actually smaller than I remembered.

You gain much more ACP by just doing a second Standard (+4 as GM) game than if your first Standard game were to be upgraded to Premium (+1). That pretty much kills the fear that ACP would become too plentiful if every country got to have 1-2 premium events per year.

5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Australia—NSW—Sydney aka Nik B.

Bob Jonquet wrote:


You have to consider that GMs at conventions are likely earning many more AcP than a local gameday because they are running multiple sessions in a short period of time.

And yet you don’t apply that logic to ‘premier’ events, seems like massive hypocrisy to run a line “but at a con you can gm more” on one hand and then advocate the exact opposite viewpoint for a select group.

Once again, it’s another US centric ‘big con’ self serving pay on the back for you guys, just like the 5 nova rubric debacle.

Seriously testing the patience and understanding of the international audience.

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