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The Fabricate spell lets you create Masterwork items with an appropriate skill check. My question is if you fail that check, what happens? Do you simply make a standard version of the item? Does the spell fail? If it’s the former, can you recast the spell on the standard-quality item? It’s still the same materials, after all. Or can you only cast the spell on what is viewed as “raw materials”? Seems like if this is the case, even a little downtime means you’re basically guaranteed to get Masterwork items. Or is that the point?
The Fabricate spell lets you create Masterwork items with an appropriate skill check. My question is if you fail that check, what happens? Do you simply make a standard version of the item? Does the spell fail? If it’s the former, can you recast the spell on the standard-quality item? It’s still the same materials, after all. Or can you only cast the spell on what is viewed as “raw materials”? Seems like if this is the case, even a little downtime means you’re basically guaranteed to get Masterwork items. Or is that the point?
At level nine, when you can reliably cast fabricate every day, masterwork is no longer a thing you should really be worried about. If a wizard guy is willing to cast the same daggum spell every day just so I have a slightly nicer everything, I’m more than willing to let him do that.
The wizard already has lower level abilities that grant better effects for combat purposes: magic weapon lasts nine minutes (like, two dungeon combats+ at 90 rounds) and grants not only the + to attack, but also damage, as a single example.
If you’re worried about how much money the party might make: eh. If they were really working at it, infinite wishes have been available for a couple of levels, now, so... meh. (Not that I would expect them to have them, just that if they were really trying to break things, fabricate doesn’t really crack the top ten in my book.)
Fabricate is meant to do two things:
-1) make craft fast
-2) let you build stuff you don’t have in case of emergencies
The latter is nice for making a bridge of wood from some nearby trees. The former is nice for having really great clothes at all times.
Whether the latter unbalances a campaign is strictly individual, but it’s fine for mine.
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The Fabricate spell lets you create Masterwork items with an appropriate skill check. My question is if you fail that check, what happens? Do you simply make a standard version of the item? Does the spell fail? If it’s the former, can you recast the spell on the standard-quality item? It’s still the same materials, after all. Or can you only cast the spell on what is viewed as “raw materials”? Seems like if this is the case, even a little downtime means you’re basically guaranteed to get Masterwork items. Or is that the point?
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
Create Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield, see Chapter 6 for the price of other masterwork tools) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is
for the cost in raw materials.
The original materials are materials components of the spell, so they are consumed when you cast the spell. If the check succeeds you get a masterwork item.
Note that one of the components for a masterwork item is a masterwork component. If the check fails that component is consumed but you don't get a masterwork item. It is reasonable to say that you get a normal item, but the masterwork component is destroyed, so you can't use that normal item as the component to make a masterwork item. You need to add the needed masterwork component.
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The Fabricate spell lets you create Masterwork items with an appropriate skill check. My question is if you fail that check, what happens? Do you simply make a standard version of the item? Does the spell fail? If it’s the former, can you recast the spell on the standard-quality item? It’s still the same materials, after all. Or can you only cast the spell on what is viewed as “raw materials”? Seems like if this is the case, even a little downtime means you’re basically guaranteed to get Masterwork items. Or is that the point?At level nine, when you can reliably cast fabricate every day, masterwork is no longer a thing you should really be worried about. If a wizard guy is willing to cast the same daggum spell every day just so I have a slightly nicer everything, I’m more than willing to let him do that.
The wizard already has lower level abilities that grant better effects for combat purposes: magic weapon lasts nine minutes (like, two dungeon combats+ at 90 rounds) and grants not only the + to attack, but also damage, as a single example.
If you’re worried about how much money the party might make: eh. If they were really working at it, infinite wishes have been available for a couple of levels, now, so... meh. (Not that I would expect them to have them, just that if they were really trying to break things, fabricate doesn’t really crack the top ten in my book.)
Fabricate is meant to do two things:
-1) make craft fast
-2) let you build stuff you don’t have in case of emergenciesThe latter is nice for making a bridge of wood from some nearby trees. The former is nice for having really great clothes at all times.
Whether the latter unbalances a campaign is strictly individual, but it’s fine for mine.
Fabricate is limited in its effects, even if a lot of people don't want to recognize that.
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.
You can turn trees into wooden planks, and if you are skilled in carpentry, into a wooden bridge that uses only dovetails to join the pieces together, but you can't make one that uses rope or nails to join the pieces together.
As written, you can make the wooden part of a long or short bow, but you can't make a composite bow. You can make a sword blade (if you start with weapon-grade steel) but not the hilt.
With multiple castings, you can make all the pieces of a complex object, but it will still require some assembly.
Seeing the number of skills you will need to make some object it is rarely worth the skill points for an adventuring wizard.
BTW, a high-quality dress usually requires several kinds of items: several colors of thread, buttons, different kind of cloth, etc.
I doubt you could make if with fabricate.
I will note, in my experience, "material of one sort" does not usually exclusively mean, "of only one particular atomic structure, and none other."
Rather, it more often is a method of internal contrast, "Of one sort into a product of the same material."
If that was true, the spell couldn't do much of anything, which, admittedly, is what some seem to want from it. If so, more power to you for your games!
As written, by a more limited style of interpretation, you couldn't actually do what Diego is suggestion. The spell description notes,
Transforms raw materials into finished items.
That word "finished," with the inability to have multiple materials, would seem to rather handily defeat any concept of multiple stages of crafting, as none of those stages are finished items.
What's more, there's a problem with even judging how far along crafting individual bits of a material are, compared to crafting the whole material. How much does the wood for a sword's handle cost? The string? I don't know of those prices (though I'm willing to learn if they're printed somewhere!). If so, how much "crafting" have you really done? The crafting progress is strictly accounted for by cost, and there really is no way follow what you've accomplished if you run it "only individual materials" outside of arbitrary GM whim.
If I were going for the latter (as a GM), I could just make up how many hit points a monster has. "Here's a 1st level goblin with 60 hit points. He's just as terrible in every other respect." That's a fine thing for a GM to do, but it's clearly outside the scope of the written rules.
That said, it's quite probable that critics (somewhat rightly) dismiss the minor list description as "incomplete."
So, looking at the full spell text:
School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain artifice 5; Elemental School void 5, wood 5
CASTING
Casting Time see text
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target up to 10 cu. ft./level; see text
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noDESCRIPTION
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.
Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet of material to be affected by the spell.
I guess "product" is a pretty important word in that question.
1.
an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.
"food products"
a substance produced during a natural, chemical, or manufacturing process.
"waste products"
synonyms: artifact, commodity, manufactured item/article/thing; creation, invention;
goods, wares, merchandise, produce, solutions
"new electronic products"
commercially manufactured articles, especially recordings, viewed collectively.
"too much product of too little quality"
2.
a thing or person that is the result of an action or process.
"his daughter, the product of his first marriage"
synonyms: result, consequence, outcome, effect, upshot, fruit, byproduct, spin-off, legacy, issue
"her fear was a product of her emotional insecurity"
a person whose character and identity have been formed by a particular period or situation.
"an aging academic who is a product of the 1960s"
3.
Mathematics
a quantity obtained by multiplying quantities together, or from an analogous algebraic operation.
Clearly not the last one, and the first one excludes "partial builds" and seems most likely to me, as it has the most in common with the idea of "fabricate" in general. The second one would allow such an interpretation, though.
Older editions were often more explicit with their descriptions of what you can accomplish. While they are different games, it's worth looking at for context where the spell came from:
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Thus, you can fabricate a wooden bridge from a clump of tress, a rope from a patch of hemp, clothes from flax or wool, and so forth. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet. You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship (jewelry, swords, glass, crystal, and the like).
The Player's Handbook for 2e has extremely similar wording:
Articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship (jewelry, swords, glass, crystal, etc.) cannot be fabricated unless the wizard otherwise has great skill in the appropriate craft.
I don't know about anything before that.
Similarly, 5e continues:
You also can’t use it to create items that ordinarily require a high degree of craftsmanship, such as jewelry, weapons, glass, or armor, unless you have proficiency with the type of artisan’s tools used to craft such objects.
While it can be argued that most could be made of only a singular material, such exclusiveness would be exceptionally unlikely in the extreme. For one set of reasoning, look at most any item you'd want to craft, as depicted in the books.
And here's an important bit:
By means of this spell, the wizard is able to convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.
You convert raw materials into products of the same material.
So the wording is nearly identical. A quick perusal through the 2e, 3e, and 5e books showed me exceptionally few items of any sort, masterwork or otherwise that were made of a singular material - even dungeon walls, underwear, and, of course, magic (hence masterwork) weapons.
(I found a bowl - though it was likely lacquered and fired, given the seeming shine - and a few earrings that seemed to consist of a single material.)
So we know that, historically, at least, and in future editions, it can make multi-material items (at least under most reasonable interpretations).
Again, this isn't those games. This is merely a quick survey to see wher our version of the spell came from.
For the thing that harms my argument, I'll be clear, here - during his tenure, SKR said "no" and did so right here.
While it seems that it should be a clearly closed door, he also seemingly contradicts that claim in the same post, right above, with, "But you can create a stack of masterwork longswords," (which, as we can see in Pathfinder art on page 146 that longswords are made of multiple materials, as are Valeros', and so on. But, sure, he said "masterwork" and none of those necessarily are. Point in fact, I can't find a weapon that explicitly claims it's masterwork, so I just had to look at the things that were definitively masterwork - that had to be: magic weapons. Page 475 had what I was looking for and of the weapons on that page of any stripe, including four longswords, only the holy avenger looked like it could be made out of a single material (though it definitively isn't, as cold iron isn't a golden color). But maybe we discount that page, because it has obvious errors - I mean that luckblade is supposedly a "short sword" but is just as long as the "long swords" to either side. None of the magic items (which must be masterwork first) follow a single material.
What's more, the FAQ of the spell disagrees with his read, as seen here.
Fabricate: Can I use this to make a masterwork item or an item with a special material?
Yes and yes. In effect, the spell is only saving you time compared to crafting the item nonmagically; you still must provide the raw materials (which costs you 1/3 of the item's price).
The spell doesn't require a Craft check if you're making an item that doesn't require a high degree of craftsmanship, such as a desk, door, club, outfit, or simple kind of armor.
Creating a desk with a secret compartment, a door that matches a wall when it is closed (i.e., a secret door), or a masterwork item count as items with a "high degree of craftsmanship," so you must succed at a appropriate Craft check against the DC to craft these sorts of items with the spell. In general, any item that has a Craft DC of 15 or higher requires you to succeed at a Craft check to fabricate the item.
If you want to create (for example) a mithral chain shirt, you need to provide the mithral and other materials needed for the chain shirt (costing 1/3 of the item's price). Because mithral items are always masterwork, you would have to succeed at a Craft check to successfully create the item.
As with the normal crafting rules, if you fail this check by 4 or less, you fail to create the item but do not ruin your materials (and could cast the spell again using those materials). If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.
For clarity why it disagrees with him:
(for example) a mithral chain shirt, you need to provide the mithral needed for the chain shirt (costing 1/3 of the item's price). Because mithral items are always masterwork, you would have to succeed at a Craft check to successfully create the item.
Hence, the various materials must be provided, and it is presumed (within the answer itself) that a mithril chain shirt requires more material(s) than just mithril to create.
I mean, this can also be seen in making an "outfit," (see page 161-162 Core for examples) much less a secret door that matches the wall when it's closed (given, as noted, walls are generally made of multiple materials, and the description isn't limited, otherwise).
Do note, though, that both Sean and the FAQ seem to presume you can make masterwork items (multiple?) with only a single check.
Now, an important note where my first post might have been misleading: it is absolutely possible to ruin materials with fabricate according to this effect.
That said, the DC is 20 (exceptions: a few alchemical items and very high rating composite longbows, and mechanical traps with a CR of 6 or higher {see page 425, Core}). Int of 20 (+5), masterwork tools (+2), and someone to help with Aid Another (+2), and fox's cunning (+4 int/+2 modifier) means 5+2+2+2=+11, making it impossible to fail the DC 20 by 5 or more, even if you have zero ranks, as skills don't work on the auto-success/fail skill rule, that's basically it: you can take 10, and anything higher than a 3 succeeds. Heck, if you can snag crafter's fortune from the APG, by taking 10, you get a 26, letting you ace anything with a DC 25 or less, too (or you can just ignore any two of the other benefits).
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As I see it, you can make multiple pieces of a material, where "material" doesn't mean "an item with a single molecular composition in all its structure", but "material" as intended colloquially.
Wood is a material, even if it is composed of several different kinds of molecules, so you can make wooden boards but you can't make chipboard as it requires glue.
You can make a sword, but either it is a single piece of metal (there are a few examples) or it requires some assembling as the hilt and the crossguard are made separately. Evaluating the price (and so the time needed to make them) of the extra pieces if you need to make them by hand will require some guesswork, but I think we don't need that kind of precision. After all, we normally gloss over the time needed for the normal maintenance of our equipment (the straps of our armor deteriorate with time and use, our swords need sharpening, most waterskins won't last that long, and so on).
our equipment can still list the hemp rope we brought at first level, but in a campaign that lasts several years of in-game time probably, we have changed it several times. That is included in the cost of our lifestyle.
It is not an argument about "producing money" (after all, the wizard will pay the component 1/3 of the finished item and sell it at 50%, so the gain will be 50 gp for each "weapon masterwork component" produced, if you find someone that will buy teens of them), but an argument about not letting the arcane spellcaster "do everything because we use lenient interpretations of the limits of spells".
As I see it, you can make multiple pieces of a material, where "material" doesn't mean "an item with a single molecular composition in all its structure", but "material" as intended colloquially.
Wood is a material, even if it is composed of several different kinds of molecules, so you can make wooden boards but you can't make chipboard as it requires glue.
This is a fair interpretation of material, yeah, and, if I held the one-material stance, it’s the one I’d go with (though if you are looking for more specifics, it would likely follow less colloquial terms and more “as used” in the game - extremely similar, though occasionally different, but I’m pretty sure at that point we’re just splitting hairs).
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You can make a sword, but either it is a single piece of metal (there are a few examples) or it requires some assembling as the hilt and the crossguard are made separately. Evaluating the price (and so the time needed to make them) of the extra pieces if you need to make them by hand will require some guesswork, but I think we don't need that kind of precision. After all, we normally gloss over the time needed for the normal maintenance of our equipment (the straps of our armor deteriorate with time and use, our swords need sharpening, most waterskins won't last that long, and so on).
our equipment can still list the hemp rope we brought at first level, but in a campaign that lasts several years of in-game time probably, we have changed it several times. That is included in the cost of our lifestyle. [/quote
See, this is interesting, because it tends to presume a number or elements of play style. That said, as noted, it’s a reasonable interpretation, just not mine.
It is not an argument about "producing money" (after all, the wizard will pay the component 1/3 of the finished item and sell it at 50%, so the gain will be 50 gp for each "weapon masterwork component" produced, if you find someone that will buy teens of them), but an argument about not letting the arcane spellcaster "do everything because we use lenient interpretations of the limits of spells".
Yes and no. One of the things I realized last night (but ran out of time to post - I got sleeeeeeeepy) is that if you actually want to limit fabricate, it may be possible to read it as if having to pay the cost for whatever it is twice - the material cost under the Material components (which you argued, reasonably, are used up) plus the material that you actually fabricate. While I don’t really feel it works that way (and find most readings don’t follow), I could see such a rule instituted as a method of limiting its effectiveness based only on the wording of the text.
(Note - currently sleep deprived so... this might be nonsense later. Wheeeeee-!)Regardless, this is the kind of thing I meant about reasonable interpretations and what I was trying to get at - different tables have vastly different understandings of what makes a good or balance game. As many people don’t have to worry about masterwork stuff by ninth level, it feels like overly strong nuance or an attempt to artificially limit something... to me. But different groups are going to appreciate that differently, and more power to them!
If we are getting down to basics, I’d suggest that fabricate, at its core, is meant to let you make a really fast craft check to complete an item for the purpose of minimizing downtime. The quest is getting the starmetal and rare leathers and woods - the craft part should get done so the group can go back to adventures.
Stuff like,
“Hey, there is no bridge!”
“It’s cool, fam!”
... is neat, but is rarely useful, when you have wall of stone and overland flight both available at the same level. To me, making fabricate a single material comes with too many questions (“how much progress have you made? How long will it take you to finish putting the other prices together? What if you have the same starting material but different products? What about processing - do you start with sand and get glass, or do you have to start with glass?”) and feels like it’s would slow the game down. But if it helps others run things more smoothly, that’s cool. After all, “everything is more important than D&D - including D&D.” :D
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You want a spell that affects only 1 material, try stone shape.
Stone shape is a 4th level wizard spell. Fabricate? Again 4th level.
Stone shape is limited to a single piece of stone, Fabricate can affect and produce several pieces of the same material (like turning several gold ingots into gold bracelets).Not exactly a great match for comparison.
You want a spell that affects only 1 material, try stone shape.Stone shape is a 4th level wizard spell. Fabricate? Again 4th level.
Stone shape is limited to a single piece of stone, Fabricate can affect and produce several pieces of the same material (like turning several gold ingots into gold bracelets).
Not exactly a great match for comparison.
Stone shape is a fourth level spell for sorcs/wizards, but third for other classes.
Fabricate is a fifth level spell across various class options.
So you’ve got at least one spell level difference.
Fabricate is also harder to come by, in general, having fewer class options to attain it.
I’m not weighing in on whether or not the comparison is valid, beyond pointing out spell levels and relative parity for power purposes. Heh. Palliteration. (I apologize, but only mildly. Look: sleep deprived. It’s fuuuuuuuuunnnnyyyyyyy.)
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You want a spell that affects only 1 material, try stone shape.Stone shape is a 4th level wizard spell. Fabricate? Again 4th level.
Stone shape is limited to a single piece of stone, Fabricate can affect and produce several pieces of the same material (like turning several gold ingots into gold bracelets).
Not exactly a great match for comparison.Stone shape is a fourth level spell for sorcs/wizards, but third for other classes.
Fabricate is a fifth level spell across various class options.
So you’ve got at least one spell level difference.
Fabricate is also harder to come by, in general, having fewer class options to attain it.
I’m not weighing in on whether or not the comparison is valid, beyond pointing out spell levels and relative parity for power purposes. Heh. Palliteration. (I apologize, but only mildly. Look: sleep deprived. It’s fuuuuuuuuunnnnyyyyyyy.)
:(
I checked the level of Stone shape for wizards to be sure e forgot to check Fabricate.@OmniMage: I think it is best to compare them between the same class.
Fabricate is stronger: it can affect multiple objects of the same material at the same time, while Stone shape affect one and it can make intricate details (with a skill check) while Stone shape can't.
Wood shape is limited as it can't make fine details, and originally it was limited to a class that has higher abilities with natural objects (BTW, a class that gets Stone shape at 3rd level).
AFAIK there are ships that are made only of wood, with wooden pegs and dovetails instead of nails and glue. So the river barge scheme works without problems.
:(
I checked the level of Stone shape for wizards to be sure e forgot to check Fabricate.
Man, we’ve all definitely been there! At least I have! I hear you, my dude. No worries.