Charge, ready action and AoO with reach


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Hi,
I'm building a cavalier with a lance and I thought about an uncommon, but possible situation :
What if the npc makes a ready action vs my cavalier like "I'll use a move action towards the cavalier as soon as he is in my move range"

Then the cavalier charges.
Flow is interrupted when the cavalier is about 30ft away.

Here's the possibilities IMO :
1 The npc goes in front of the cavalier, provoking an AoO (because reach) AND the cavalier completes the charge as normal with ride-by attack.

2 Like #1 but breaking the ride-by attack because the npc is blocking the way.

3 The npc goes in front of the cavalier, NOT provoking AoO because the cavalier is in the middle of a charge, and completing the charge as normal.

4 Provoking AoO, but interrupting (read cancelling) the charge since a lance can't attack at 5ft distance.

5 No attacks whatsoever (less likely)

6 Can't make a ready action in the middle of a charge?

Note : You can't initiate a charge with a ready action so the NPC can only move. I think it would be the 2nd possibility, but IDK. English is not my first language so, sorry. Thank you!


If the mount is large (medium sized cavalier) then it takes up 4 spaces. In this case the cavalier can attack as though in any of those 4 squares - which means #1.

If the mount is medium (with a small rider) then #3 - but personally as a GM I'd house rule they get to make their charge attack as well - but by the RAW he loses his charge attack since his target is no longer valid based on weapon range.


Let's first say things precisely: technically, when a character is mounted, they don't charge. Their mount charges, and they just move with its speed and take the same penalty to AC and bonus to the attack roll.

Now, the rules for readying action say:

"If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

I believe the following things happen:

1. The horse charge is put on hold until the npcs makes his readied action.
2. The NPC move towards the cavalier. When he leaves the square 10 ft. away from the cavalier, they provoke AoO.
3. The cavalier can take the AoO against the NPC.
4. The NPC finishes his move, stopping next to the cavalier.
5. The horse's charge would be resumed. However, the NPC is now standing 5 ft from the horse, which means that the horse's charge ends. The horse can make an attack, but the cavalier can't, because the NPC is too close. Alternatively, if the path ahead is free (which may be, depending on where the NPC will be standing), the cavalier can use Ride-by-Attack and continue moving, but then neither he nor his mount will be able to attack.

So in total it's the option you've listed as 4., although it's to remember that while the cavalier can't make the attack after the charge, the mount still can.

Grand Lodge

Thanks, to be honest, both of these answers are plausible and that’s why I find this situation so complicated rulewise. I think it would come down to the DM at this point.
Gotta say though in real life, the cavalier wouldn’t give a s!~$ if the npc advanced or not lol.


Adjoint wrote:

Let's first say things precisely: technically, when a character is mounted, they don't charge. Their mount charges, and they just move with its speed and take the same penalty to AC and bonus to the attack roll.

Now, the rules for readying action say:

"If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

I believe the following things happen:

1. The horse charge is put on hold until the npcs makes his readied action.
2. The NPC move towards the cavalier. When he leaves the square 10 ft. away from the cavalier, they provoke AoO.
3. The cavalier can take the AoO against the NPC.
4. The NPC finishes his move, stopping next to the cavalier.
5. The horse's charge would be resumed. However, the NPC is now standing 5 ft from the horse, which means that the horse's charge ends. The horse can make an attack, but the cavalier can't, because the NPC is too close. Alternatively, if the path ahead is free (which may be, depending on where the NPC will be standing), the cavalier can use Ride-by-Attack and continue moving, but then neither he nor his mount will be able to attack.

So in total it's the option you've listed as 4., although it's to remember that while the cavalier can't make the attack after the charge, the mount still can.

I don't believe it would work that way, as it would mean that whenever you charge with a reach weapon and riding a mount, your mount goes all the way to the target no matter what and prevent you to attack, which wouldn't make any sense (unless you play a very Monty Python-ish game).

So as a GM, in the lack of a specific rule covering this, I'd play it the most organic way : the stupid (or brave ?) creature eat your lance's tip in the mouth and have a bad time.

This, however, makes me wonder something else. Let's say the guy is a good old L-sized giant with the Rhino charge feat :

Quote:

Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.

So the guy ready a charge, that triggers when you charge. What does it do ? Now that's a harder case to solve :D


bbangerter wrote:
If the mount is large (medium sized cavalier) then it takes up 4 spaces. In this case the cavalier can attack as though in any of those 4 squares - which means #1.

I see this a lot. Where is it stated? AFAIK, you cannot attack with a lance from horseback at 5' range simply by saying "I attack from the rear square".


blahpers wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
If the mount is large (medium sized cavalier) then it takes up 4 spaces. In this case the cavalier can attack as though in any of those 4 squares - which means #1.
I see this a lot. Where is it stated? AFAIK, you cannot attack with a lance from horseback at 5' range simply by saying "I attack from the rear square".

Under mounted combat in the combat section.

Quote:
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat.

Scarab Sages

Right, but you still can't choose the back corner to attack from to get around the 5' hole in your reach.

d2pfsrd has some diagrams that show what large and larger creatures threaten when wielding a reach weapon or not. A cavalier on a large mount would threaten the orange(peach?) squares and not the green squares.

You threaten 10 feet out from any square on the mount, but not 10 feet across the mount.

Also, when your mount charges, you are also charging, per the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?

Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.

A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.

This change will be reflected in future printings of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook

LINK


Adjoint wrote:
Let's first say things precisely: technically, when a character is mounted, they don't charge. Their mount charges, and they just move with its speed and take the same penalty to AC and bonus to the attack roll.

Those were the rules pre-2014, before they released the Mounted Charge FAQ (quoted above) which changed how mounted charges work.

Nowadays both mount and rider must take the charge action to make it a "Mounted Charge" for effects such as Spirited Charge and Lance bonus damage.

****

Ferious Thune wrote:
Also, when your mount charges, you are also charging, per the FAQ.

If you want to make a "Mounted Charge", both rider and mount must take the charge action. But it is possible for the mount to be the only one charging in a turn, as the FAQ uses that scenario as an example of when it isn't a "Mounted Charge".

Scarab Sages

Right, sorry. I should have swapped what I said. When the rider charges, the mount charges.


willuwontu wrote:
blahpers wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
If the mount is large (medium sized cavalier) then it takes up 4 spaces. In this case the cavalier can attack as though in any of those 4 squares - which means #1.
I see this a lot. Where is it stated? AFAIK, you cannot attack with a lance from horseback at 5' range simply by saying "I attack from the rear square".

Under mounted combat in the combat section.

Quote:
A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat.

Blaphers and Thune make a good point. I mis-remembered this rule. You are considered the size of the mount. So your attack range is defined by the closest point from you to the target. No charge attack by RAW once they are inside your 5' range.


Some good news is that the lance will still deal double damage on the AoO or other attacks the occur while charging.

Grand Lodge

Alright I learned quite a few things, according to you guys, A cavalier can't attack at only 5ft distance with a reach weapon in a charge or not. With this out of the way, #4 is the most plausible. (AoO=yes charge=no)

While charging, both the cavalier and his mount are considered to be in a charge action.

Pizza Lord wrote:

Some good news is that the lance will still deal double damage on the AoO or other attacks the occur while charging.

I don't know about that, when the ready action is triggered, I don't think the cavalier and his mount are still considered "charging" since:

1 it interrupts the flow of actions and ;
2 The cavalier doesn't complete the charge if the npc is in the 5ft range.

I might be wrong (I'd hope so^^). If it also works with AoOs, then spirited charge is more powerful than I thought.


Charge Special Attack wrote:
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

If the mount has been able to move at least 10 feet before the ready action interrupts, then the benefits and penalties of the charge are in play. The charging character will get an attack of opportunity when the moving character leaves 10 feet to get to 5 feet if and when it happens. There are ways for the moving character to prevent this, but that is not in the question. The charging character can then drop their lance after the AOO and draw a weapon so they can continue to fight the opponent that is now within the reach of the lance and still get their charge attack assuming they have a +1 BAB. The end result should be initiate charge and AOO when the opponent moves through threat range and then drop the lance to draw another weapon as part of movement and make the charge attack having completing the movement part of charge as the quarry is five feet away (unless you have feats to allow you to continue to move after the attack).

If you are prevented from moving 10 feet by the opponent's ready action, then there is no charge bonus or penalty, however, since the charge action was selected and started, you are stuck in its clauses. You will still get your AOO for the reach weapon, albeit without the charge bonus to damage. You can then drop the lance and draw a weapon to continue the fight as before.

Interrupting the charge at no time interferes with the AOO, it may only change the conditions under which the attack and damage modifiers are applied.


I would agree if the cavalier moves at least 10 feet I would apply the penalties of a charge, and as he could hit the person moving from 10 to 5 with an AoO he would be in range, so I would apply the benefits too.


Is it valid to allow the mount to overrun the fool that decided to stand in front of a charging horse? Since overruns can be performed as part of a charge?


LastPretender wrote:


Pizza Lord wrote:

Some good news is that the lance will still deal double damage on the AoO or other attacks the occur while charging.

I don't know about that, when the ready action is triggered, I don't think the cavalier and his mount are still considered "charging" since:

1 it interrupts the flow of actions and ;
2 The cavalier doesn't complete the charge if the npc is in the 5ft range.

Once a charge is started you are charging until it's over. While the +2 attack bonus only applies to the attack after movement (barring Ride-by Attack which lets you move after) the wording of lance itself is when employed from a charging mount, which means any attacks during that time.

The fact that something interrupts a charging character's action does not mean it makes them not count as charging. If that was the case, then anyone readying a brace weapon would never deal double damage against a charging character because the attack 'interrupted the charge' (when the proper phrasing is that it interrupts the current character's turn temporarily). Similarly, taking that further would mean using an immediate action to cast a feather fall spell would never work because it interrupts the target's 'falling' and it fails since they aren't currently free falling.

Scarab Sages

There’s a difference between interrupting a charge and invalidating a charge, though. A readied action to brace doesn’t invalidate the charge. Once it’s resolved, you can continue the charge as normal. Someone moving into a charge lane between the charging character and their target invalidates the charge. You are no longer charging at that point, because it’s no longer legal to charge (excepting something like charge through). They don’t even have to provoke if all they are wanting to do is stop the charge. They just need to move into the charge lane. If you don’t have a way to continue the charge to your target after that, then the charge is invalidated.

You still take the penalty to AC, because that lasts until your next turn, whether you are still charging or not.

If someone approaches you from the side and provokes without getting into your charge lane, then maybe you’d get x2 damage for the lance, because of the non specific language, as you would still be on a charging mount.

EDIT: Also note per the FAQ quoted above that it has to be a mounted charge to get double damage (you must be charging as well, not just the mount), and that the extra damage only applies to your first attack. So if you have pounce, you don’t get double damage on all of your attacks at the end of the charge. And, if you’re going to give double damage on the AoO, then you won’t get double damage if you’re able to continue the charge and make an attack against your original opponent.

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