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I'm not sure to undertand correctly what this is doing.

First, here's the rule for inappropriately sized weapons :


A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

If I'm understanding this correctly it means that a medium creature can wield a large one-handed weapon two-handed albeit at a -2 attack rolls penalty, and can't wield a large two-handed weapon at all. Amirite ?

Now, Titan Mauler's Massive Weapons :


At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes.

She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).

Basically, this allows the Titan Mauler to wield a large two-handed weapon, but at a whooping penalty of -6 (-5 with the reduction).

So, either there's something I misunderstood or you just can't use this as the penalty is just too enormous for the benefits it gives you.

Claxon wrote:

What's interesting about that rules is that it means you can't move in anything but straight lines, if you don't have a flight speed.

You can only make the check to set the direction of gravity once per round.

I think if you have a flight speed you can probably move normally.

Yes flight speed is near mandatory but this shouldn't be an issue, I expect them to prepare their journey.

avr wrote:
Extra copy of thread.

The first time I posted it it loaded for ages before returning an error message so I posted again. I suppose I should have checked. Sorry about that.

Claxon wrote:

I believe the Planar Adventures book might have more detailed rules about this sort of thing, but I don't know that for sure.

Edit: The following came from d20pfsrd:


Subjective Directional Gravity

The strength of gravity on a plane with this trait is the same as on the Material Plane, but each individual chooses the direction of gravity’s pull. Such a plane has no gravity for unattended objects and nonsentient creatures. This sort of environment can be very disorienting to the newcomer, but it is common on “weightless” planes.

Characters on a plane with subjective directional gravity can move normally along a solid surface by imagining “down” near their feet. If suspended in midair, a character “flies” by merely choosing a “down” direction and “falling” that way. Under such a procedure, an individual “falls” 150 feet in the first round and 300 feet in each succeeding round. Movement is straight-line only. In order to stop, one has to slow one’s movement by changing the designated “down” direction (again, moving 150 feet in the new direction in the first round and 300 feet per round thereafter).

It takes a DC 16 Wisdom check to set a new direction of gravity as a free action; this check can be made once per round. Any character who fails this Wisdom check in successive rounds receives a +6 bonus on subsequent checks until he or she succeeds.

Thank you, I swear I looked for it for some time but didn't find it.

It's written that gravity in elemental plane of air works that way :

Subjective Directional Gravity: Inhabitants of the plane determine their own “down” direction. Objects not under the motive force of others do not move.

First, does "inhabitants" refer to any living creature in this plane or rather only outsiders from the plane of air ?

Second, do people just choose their gravity as free actions no matter how ? Is it an effort and something to learn and master ?

My party will maybe soon have to travel to the plane of air and I have no idea how they'll "behave" their. I was guessing that they would just float inhert unless they got a fly speed but apparently they can "fly" by choosing where they fall so i don't know anymore.

It's written that gravity in elemental plane of air works that way :

Subjective Directional Gravity: Inhabitants of the plane determine their own “down” direction. Objects not under the motive force of others do not move.

First, does "inhabitants" refer to any living creature in this plane or rather only outsiders from the plane of air ?

Second, do people just choose their gravity as free actions no matter how ? Is it an effort and something to learn and master ?

My party will maybe soon have to travel to the plane of air and I have no idea how they'll "behave" their. I was guessing that they would just float inhert unless they got a fly speed but apparently they can "fly" by choosing where they fall so i don't know anymore.

Yes bull rush would have been more suited to the situation than trip.

Shame that greater bull rush doesn't let him AoO to grab in the process :/

In my current play I have an unchained monk that also happens to be a gargoyle, so with a fly speed.

In our last play they encountered a patrol of horsemen and he did want to fly charge their captain to make him fall of his horse and have him grabbed.

The action makes total sense however I was caught off guard as I have no idea about how it would translate into game rules. On the move I told him that he couldn't grab and make him fall prone as both action requires standard action so he would grab the knocked prone foe on next turn.

However the action of flying towards him, grabing him on the way while using the momentum to precipitate him on the ground made sense as one action so if there's no existing rule about that I'd be tempted to make an homebrew feat. I require assistance ^-^

EDIT : not posting into homebrew because maybe this can be covered by existing rules.

True it's not only a grapple thing, but since maintaining is a CMB check it could be the same.

And yes there's the aid another but the thing doesn't cover what happens if you attempt to grab someone who's already grabbed by someone else (and not just aid), ar you grabbed aswell, does the target needs to make 2 escape rolls, etc. I think there are special rules for this case but I'm not sure.

zza ni wrote:
no - only starting a grapple provoke in this case. and that is if they don't use improved grapple or the grab ability. the t rex won't provoke if he hits with a bite and then grab. and not when he use a standard action to continue the grapple (and probably swallow).

I know that, what I meant is that since AoO damage does apply as penalty, it would have make sense that other damage coming during the monster's turn (such as readied attacks for example) would also apply as penalty, the same way a readied attack apply penalty to a caster's concentration check.

zza ni wrote:

mirror image\invisibility or other concealment should aid a bit.

also debuffing. it's will is impressive but anything with dc 20 has 50% chance to lend on it.

Yep I told them that the sorcerer should get some spells to aid the party but they didn't really account for it :/

The sorcerer is a very selfish sylphe so that makes sense, tho not the best to optimize a party and not easy for a GM to make encounters at their CR that won't outright stomp them hehe.

zza ni wrote:
high ac also work. my level 8 unchained monk has ac 41 with crane style. that mean the t-rex would only hit him on a net 20, and if he use total defense that mean that one attack is also negated with the 3rd crane feat. (heaving only one attack a round suck against it).

Yes I loved crane style on monk, it was so stupid to have so much AC with no armor at all ^^ our monk have a decent AC so if they can help him a bit and if he plays on defensive it can work.

zza ni wrote:
cast ant haul on sorcerer and have him carry the kinetikist who then blast the t-rex. problem solved .

That would be funny as hell although is it really possible for him to attack while being carried that way ? Idk if there's a rule covering that but if there's not I'd apply a serious penalty to attack rolls ^^

Overall I know there are solutions, in cases in which I'm not too sure I always play an NPC that can help turn the tide if they were clever but unlucky on dices.

I was just wondering if there are other solutions than just "aid another" and spells to help vs grab.

I also remember that there were some rules covering "melee" with multiple people trying to grab multiple people, but can't recall exactly what it says.

zza ni wrote:

taking damage while grappling does not end the grapple (unless specific rules from special abilities\feats etc etc say so).

remember that others can team up on one in a grapple (each giving +2 i think with aid other .need to re-read that part in grappling). also escape artist or a grapple check can get you out of a grapple. and there are some abilities and spells that give a bonus to it (or make one immune to being grappled such as freedom of movement). and that net 20 is an auto success. (in the grapple attempt check, not skill check like escape artist).

and yes the T-rex is a very strong grappler. it's one of it's main threats. hence the swallow whole part. on the other hand anyone with flying can rain death on it with ease. at level 8-9 i would assume some of them can fly...

We have a sorcerer that can fly at will but she specialized into wind so she has rather low damages. Our Kineticist has some ranged damage but that'll be far from enough.

I figured that since AoO damage apply as a penalty to a CMB check, there was maybe a rule somewhere stating that damage taken while you check to maintain a grab also apply as a penalty. And it would make sense. Can't see anything written about that tho.

I'd say no. You can magically enhance a wall but nowhere it is said that you can give it specific weapon properties, so why could you (excluding homebrew ofc) ?

Besides that, the cost of a magic property is for a single weapon, but I guess even a modest 3-feet long wall would be much, much more expansive to enhance than a weapon.

At the moment, I'm the master of a game in which I plan to put the players in an arena in which they'll be up against a Tyrannosaurus, such as this one.

They're 6 8th-level PCs, including an (evil) priest, a monk and a fighter, among other spellcasters. I have several questions, I delved into the grapple rule (once more) and I'm still in doubt.

Tyrannosaurus have the grab special monster ability, which allows him to attempt a free grab on a successful hit. On the 2nd round, the monster can make his check without triggering an AoO since grappled condition removes all AoO.

But what happen if the monster take damage while grappling ? I don't see anything written about that but it would be legit that the creature doesn't maintain grapple so easily after an axe went 3 inches into his neck. Did I miss a rule somewhere ?

Otherwise I don't see how any 8th or even 9th level player without any spell can escape the grapple of a 39 CMD creature, unless they have some compulsion spells (which they don't have). Even if the whole party try to aid another ... 39 CMD !

Dave Justus wrote:

I would think about taking ordinary creatures/people from the area and applying the Nightmare Creature template.

I didn't know that such templates existed !

I can even add some spice by having my vilain creating an elixir of nightmares and using it to transform things into nightmare creatures.

Ok so Saturday we're supposed to play but unfortunatly one of my players can't join in.
Since every one else still want to play their characters from this playthrough I'm coming up with something that is happening where they are now, which is a small town in Taldor that I made up for the occasion. It's supposed to last about 4 hours and they shouldn't die or be serioussly harmed or shackled.


The story is that a rather mad and evil person (always gotta start by one of them) decided that he wanted to die to a bogeyman as he wants to experiance the deepest fear he could imagine. Since he couldn't find a bogeyman to eat him, he decided to create one.

So one day, he kidnapped a pregnant woman of the countryside and locked her in the cellar of and abandoned farm he built his lair in. He then dropped strange trinkets in several houses in town, that would connect nearby persons to him. Some, he dropped them himself, others he had them dropped by burglars paid for the job. Then he'd do dark rituals that would instill fear and grow nightmares into his victims minds.

He would then recover the essence of his victim's fear, and inoculate it in the kidnapped woman's and his child-to-come's mind, in the hope that she'd give birth to the monster he's expecting.

My question is : what kind of monsters that are related to fear and nightmares could I add to this session ? Obviously I can't add a real bogeyman as it wouldn't make sense and anyway my PCs are 2 level 3 so they wouldn't stand a chance. I could add other evil fey but there are so many of them and I'm quite new to GMing pathfinder, that I need advices if I want to get this done by Saturday. I'm also pretty proud of my plot, I must admit, but I take any advice to enhance it !

Thank you for reading !

Quixote wrote:
applecat144 wrote:

+6 isn't what I'd call competent, the usual DC for the most basic stuff is 10 so it means that when answering the most basic question in its field of competence, the scholar will fail roughly 1 time out of 5, and to make the most basic bread, the baker will fail the same amount of time. To me this fail rate on the easiest task is HUGE for someone supposed to be competent.

To me it would be legit that someone who has spent years training or practicing a skill should be able to complete an average task (translating into game mechanic, it would be DC 15) using this skill nearly every time the attempt it.

Competent does not always equal "years of training."

You think a 20% chance of failure is unacceptable for someone who has just begun to make progresss in a field? I'd say that's pretty fair. Especially since, when it comes to day-to-day stuff, you just don't roll. The baker doesn't fail to make bread 20% of the time; he just makes bread.

You're really getting into the mud, here. Do you think it takes the same amount of time to increase any given skill by the same amount? How long do you think it takes to learn basic first aid? I'd say an afternoon. What about learning your way around a pipe organ? To get that initial +1 (or +4), you're going to need to put in a TON of work. And that's just one of countless issues with an abstraction of this magnitude.

The system isn't meant to work and make sense in every corner of life, in every situation. It just needs to work for our purposes.

applecat144 wrote:
I also inspect their sheet when leveling up but I'd prefere a rule that everyone aknowledge, which is more fair.

I see this issue a lot. People want hard and fast rules. They want structure. These kinds of games simply don't provide that. You need to get comfortable with improvisation. That is the expectation.

At any rate, it's your game. If you want to get bogged down in the minute details, go for it. I used to do the same. But I was only using half of the...

In the end I choosed to not use this system, you're right there are just too many situations that would need a special treatment.

It's a shame tho, as I'm still very unsatisfied with the current system :D

avr wrote:
Not at all. The half-orc had spent less; his player just wasn't going to lose out on a free opportunity by letting the character who'd spent more go first and possibly take the XP for that lock.

But this can happen in regular play. And if it's only for XP, we're playing with a common XP pool anyway.

blahpers wrote:

Leaving aside the assumptions about non-adventurers for some reason not gaining experience points, this system sounds extremely tedious. It was tedious enough running up and down hills in Elder Scrolls games; it'd be far more tedious when there's no computer doing the calculations for you.

One of the two primary questions when considering a rules change is, "does this change make the game more fun?" This doesn't seem more fun to me.

I don't have the Elder Scroll reference, sorry :/ the only one I played was skyrim and I don't remember grinding any skill.

Besides that I'm aware that complexity is the main issue, counting everyone's skill XP can be a headache that's for sure. Fortunatly, we always play at my place so I have my computer that I can use for things like that. I'm planning to use a google sheet that'll do the calculation for me. I'll see if it works, if it's too tedious I'll drop that and go back to the vanilla system.

About the fun part, I don't think it makes the game more fun, but I think it makes it more fair and limit the number of absurd situations like the one I've been describing. A good share of the people I played pathfinder with (inclusing myself ofc) were unsatisfied with the skill system so that's why I'm trying to add my 2 cents.

Quixote wrote:
1. Your first problem doesn't seem seem like a problem; a non-adventuring lifestyle doesn't gain experience at nearly the same rate. The baker and the scholar you were talking about could very easily be competent in their fields (+4-6) at level 1, then decide to go and seek their fortunes.

+6 isn't what I'd call competent, the usual DC for the most basic stuff is 10 so it means that when answering the most basic question in its field of competence, the scholar will fail roughly 1 time out of 5, and to make the most basic bread, the baker will fail the same amount of time. To me this fail rate on the easiest task is HUGE for someone supposed to be competent.

To me it would be legit that someone who has spent years training or practicing a skill should be able to complete an average task (translating into game mechanic, it would be DC 15) using this skill nearly every time the attempt it.

Quixote wrote:

2. The "gain a bunch of stuff all of the sudden" problem is with this type of level-based system on a whole, not just skills.

My players have to run every choice they make at every level by me, first. If I see a sudden six ranks drop into a skill, I'm going to want some justification.
But really, it's an abstraction. Suspend your disbelief. It's not like the system from those Elder Scrolls games resulted in an any more believable situation.

Check out Chronicles of Darkness. Their system requires you to spend experience points on everything individually.

I also inspect their sheet when leveling up but I'd prefere a rule that everyone aknowledge, which is more fair. I'll check Chronicles of Darkness when I'll have time.

avr wrote:
There was a rule in Rolemaster once which did something like this. If you're OK with the burly half-orc elbowing the little thief out of the way so he can have first chance at the lock, go for it (this was something I saw, not just theorycraft). It does seem like it promotes immersion-breaking activity to me though.

Well basically I'm ok that someone who trained a skill is better at it than someone who didn't. If the half-orc spent more time and ressources training lockpicking than the thief, well, so be it.

The current skill system have been used on all my plays to this day, but there are always been 2 major flaws that were a problem to me, and I think to many other players as well.

First is that to be decent in a skill that isn't combat related, you have to put rank in it which means level up in a combat class. For example, if I make a character that has been working at his village's bakery until he decided to seek fame and fortune by adventuring, he'll start level 1 and be a crappy baker no matter what because he'll have 1 rank in his profession skill. Same goes with a scholar in geography who want to see the world he studied by his own eyes, etc.

The second main problem is that a player with a high enough level, knowing nothing about a subject, can suddunly become an expert because he has leveled up and invested all his ranks in it.

So thought about it and came up with this system.

Each skill has its own individual XP bar, and whenever you roll for it you earn XP. When having sufficient XP you earn a rank, regardless of your current number of HD.

You earn skill XP in the following way :

- If you roll a skill opposed to a DC and succeed the check, you earn an amount of XP equal to the DC in the involved skill. If you fail by 9 or less, you earn half XP, and if you fail by 10 or more you earn no XP at all. Additionally, if you succeed by 15 or more, you don't earn any XP as the task is too trivial for you to be able to learn anything.

- It works the same way if you're rolling an opposed skill check (e. g. perception vs stealth) but you count the opposed check for the purpose of earning XP.

- You can also spend time practicing your skill, provided that you have what's required to do so. You'll need books to practice knowledge, trees or a cliff to practice climbing, a mount to practice riding, etc. When doing so, every day of training, roll a d20 as if you were making a check and add the result to the XP bar of the ivolved skill. You can roll untrained skill for the purpose of training them.

- You can have a master helping you in training, doing so double the amount of XP received but the master need to have at least 5 more ranks in the involved skill for this effect to work.

- Anytime you receive any amount of XP to a skill, multiply this amount by the number of skill rank per level you'd normally earn (you still add your int. modifier). This ensure that classes designed to be very skilled will earn new ranks in skills they use much faster than other classes.

The main issue with this system is that it can be tedious for the GM to count skill XP everytime someone roll a given skill but I hope I'll manage that. I might even make an automated spreadshit for this purpose.

What are your thoughts about this system ?

I thought about it a bit and I think it'll definitly be a Rakshasa, it seems like the vicious and power-craving creature that I'm looking for.

There's only one thing I don't really understand about them. They have a very strong cast system and it says their goal is to climb the hierarchy, however they put importance in knowing their place.

How are they supposed to climb the hierarchy if they don't overcome or betray their masters at some point ? Or is it only when they reincarnate that they become a superior being, if they were successful enough in their previous incranation ?

For now I'll stick to one vilain and his minions, I'd like to have it written soon enough and don't want to overcomplicate things, I'll go on more intricate things in other adventures.

Mudfoot wrote:
Why is the mayor calling in the PCs to investigate himself? Even if he's been pressurised into it by the townsfolk, I'd have thought he'd want to get rid of them.

Because he'll want to toy with them, he's in need for some challenge and amusement so he'll call them to see them fail and maybe eventually consume them or something like that. Hopefully his arrogance will backfire and precipitate his fate.

The reason why I don't make up a monster just for this adventure, nor something that go for more chapters, is because I don't feel comfortable enough with Pathfinder's universe yet. I want to start with something along the line to get the hang of it, before going for something more personal.

Thank you very much for your help, it gives ideas and hype me !

What's the level of PCs at the beginning of the play ?

Since they already have a bit of reputation, enough for someone in the region calling them for help, it means they've already lived some adventure so I have them starting at 3rd level.

It'll start as a classic case solving, so it'll be a lot of talking and looking for clues and minor combat. I expect them to be 5 - 6 when they really start to understand what it's all about, and level 7 - 9 when they'll finaly uncover the vilain, and maybe fight him.

What kind of character is my vilain ?

The vilain of this story is the kind of charismatic sociopath who'll ask the PCs help only to measure to them, in a Moriarty way, and hopefully that'll eventually backfire. Therefore, he may have minions manipulated to appear as the vilain, but he can't be the servant of a cult or an other entity.

  • Lamias were my other option, but we played Rise of the Runelords first chapters not so long ago so I want to avoid them.

  • I didn't know about Rakshasha but I think they'd really fit the role. I'm going to get some more info about them.

  • A lich would be a bit too epic for what I want to do.

  • Among faeries there are many, many things and I don't know much of them, which kind fo faeries could be this kind of villain ? From what I saw a particularly clever bogeyman could be a good vilain, slowly plunging the town and the PCs into fear and madness to feed himself.

  • These plants are really neat, esp. the bodythief, and they'll fit in an other plot for sure.

I'm currently trying to write an adventure to play in Pathfinder for some friends of mine, that should last ~25 hours. This isn't a hardcap and we'll have the time to play.

It's the frist time I'm writing a Pathfinder adventure scenario. In fact, it's the first time I'm writing a medfan adventure at all, so I'm not very familiar with this kind of world.

My plot is rather classical. The mayor of a small town is calling the PCs, who're already fairly renowned in the region, to help him solve a case of townfolks disappearing without traces.

Eventually, PCs would find that it's the mayor rapturing those people, and that's where I need help. I want him to be of a extraordinary type of creature that infiltrate humanoid society, eventually earning their love and trust, and turning them into cattle to feed, satisfy their needs for another's suffuring, or any other evil intent.

The obvious choice would be, I believe, a vampire, but I think it's a bit too obvious and I want to surprise my players.

I also know that it doesn't have to be any kind of extraordinary creature, in fact if I was writing this just for me it would be an ordinary human, but I know my players would be pleased if it's some kind of creature.

It would also help that he's forced by his nature to lay clues for PCs, e.g if it's a vampire, PCs may note that he's avoiding daylight and garlic.

I'm the gunslinger in this game, but I'll be as impartial as possible. I've been dying several time for recalling a rule to the GM so I'm quite used to it :D

Anyway, as you stated the gunslinger doesn't need damages, with or without this deed, and by level 7 you don't need to roll crazy for all your attacks to hit. But I would have liked to play around this to add some flavor and change from the usual "bullet-ridden" style.

Re-reading it, however, I have a doubt about the part that doesn't allow you to include extra attacks from rapid shot and haste.

"The gunslinger [...] pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot".

This suggest that you can include extra attacks, since it specifies "all of her attack potential".

Furthermore, later you can read the following :

"If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0)"

As far as I know, you can have 4 BBA at max at level 20, but it suggests that you can reduce the penalty to the crit confirm roll to 0, which automatically imply that you roll at least 5 dices. So despite the unclear phrasing, I'd be tempted to say that the person who wrote this had in mind that you would include extra attacks from other sources when using this deed. Especially since "based on your BBA" doesn't strictly exclude attacks awarded by other sources.

That would also make the deed relevent and not highly situational, as MrCharisma described it.

Thing is, we're playing a game in which I'm not the GM, but I'm the "rule guy" and I'd like to have this sorted, if there's an errata it's great, otherwise I'll have to talk about it with the GM.

Adjoint wrote:

Let's first say things precisely: technically, when a character is mounted, they don't charge. Their mount charges, and they just move with its speed and take the same penalty to AC and bonus to the attack roll.

Now, the rules for readying action say:

"If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

I believe the following things happen:

1. The horse charge is put on hold until the npcs makes his readied action.
2. The NPC move towards the cavalier. When he leaves the square 10 ft. away from the cavalier, they provoke AoO.
3. The cavalier can take the AoO against the NPC.
4. The NPC finishes his move, stopping next to the cavalier.
5. The horse's charge would be resumed. However, the NPC is now standing 5 ft from the horse, which means that the horse's charge ends. The horse can make an attack, but the cavalier can't, because the NPC is too close. Alternatively, if the path ahead is free (which may be, depending on where the NPC will be standing), the cavalier can use Ride-by-Attack and continue moving, but then neither he nor his mount will be able to attack.

So in total it's the option you've listed as 4., although it's to remember that while the cavalier can't make the attack after the charge, the mount still can.

I don't believe it would work that way, as it would mean that whenever you charge with a reach weapon and riding a mount, your mount goes all the way to the target no matter what and prevent you to attack, which wouldn't make any sense (unless you play a very Monty Python-ish game).

So as a GM, in the lack of a specific rule covering this, I'd play it the most organic way : the stupid (or brave ?) creature eat your lance's tip in the mouth and have a bad time.

This, however, makes me wonder something else. Let's say the guy is a good old L-sized giant with the Rhino charge feat :


Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.

So the guy ready a charge, that triggers when you charge. What does it do ? Now that's a harder case to solve :D

First things first, a reminder of what this deeds exactly says :

Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus. She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the gunslinger’s single attack is considered to have hit. For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the firearm. For instance, if a 7th-level gunslinger firing a musket hits with both attacks, she does 2d12 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers. Precision damage and extra damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers and are not increased by this deed. If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0). The gunslinger only misfires on a dead shot if all the attack rolls are misfires. She cannot perform this deed with a blunderbuss or other scatter weapon when attacking creatures in a cone. The gunslinger must spend 1 grit point to perform this deed.

There are few things that I'd note. First, it says that you make as many attack rolls as you can, based on your BBA. While this is unclear and, AFAIK, not really sorted, it means that this deed doesn't take care of extra attacks coming from rapid shot, haste, or any other source.

Second thing is that it's a full-round action, so it can't be combined with vital strike.

Considering this, I don't get the point of this deed. It's pretty much a vital strike that cost grit and doesn't allow you to move, or a full attack that doesn't allow you to take a 5-foot step and that deals less damages.

Well, it has some pros. It can help with DR, help for crits, it's easier to hit but that's just not enough imo to justify the cost of 1 grit point. Anyway you have clustured shot for DR, and even with 4 BBA you aren't going to crit THAT often so you'd rather make all your attacks either way. And if you really want to crit there's the lethal patience deed at level 15. Finally, hitting has never been hard with gunslingers, especially at higher levels.

It costs only 1 ammo to shoot, yes, but anyway as a gunslinger you need your reloading gears and feats so this isn't relevant by the time you can actually perform the deed.

All this to say that I can't find a good reason to use this deed. What about you ?

Alright. One more question :p

Can I use both a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes and an Amulet of Mighty Fists ?

Enhancement bonus do not stack, that's for sure. But if I get a +2 weapon property on the Body Wrap (let's say, Axiomatic) and a +3 property on the Amulet (let's say Speed) does it works and give me both effects ?

It would be a much cheaper alternative than getting a +5 amulette or a +6 body wrap.

Baba Ganoush wrote:
To a barbarian with Body Bludgeon rage power a Monk's Body is considered a two-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage.

Ok this is much, much clearer explained this way. Thanks a lot for your time.

An other question : can I take weapon related feats, such as weapon focus or improved critical, on unarmed strike ?

Ok. I had a doubt about Impact since it says that an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon, but at the same time the improved unarmed strike states that you're considered armed when making an "unarmed strike". Wasn't very clear.

I can't find a clear answer to that question. I'd tend to say that I deal bludgeoning damages, but I can't find anywhere where it's specifically stated. Do I have to chose which kind of damage I deal ? Can I slot Impact on an amulet of migthy fists ?

The magus seems like an option to consider ! I've also been wanting a Magus for a while so it's maybe the occasion.

Thank you all for answering !

So, gun chemist looks really fun. It doesn't really fit the type of character I want to make but I keep it for an other one as I really like the idea.

About the Rogue, it looks like it may work but given how the GM sees firearms in his universe, acquiring a gun of any sort would be a quest in itself. That would require me to get the gunsmithing feat. Which would also require tons of RP around it.

In the end, maybe I could just create an archetype ? I've never done it but I guess that with some help I could create something that would perform as good as the musket master in an other style, yet not overperform.

I've already played a gunslinger Musket Master and actually it was one of my favorite character ever.

I now have to make an other character and I want to return to the gunslinger, but with a different approach. I thought I'd play a Pistolero but my GM doesn't want to allow advanced firearms and I don't really see a Pistolero without a revolver.

Fair enough.

So I thought I could play some sort of prowler expert in long range shooting, waiting the perfect moment to pull a devastating shot etc.

Perhaps he would have been a profesional monster hunter, or a hitman. With his parents dead he would have spent his early years in a orphanage, until a mysterious stranger adopted him and raised him into a strict way of life, before teaching him the art of patience and endurance before shooting into something that people with money want dead.

My issue is that I don't have any idea on how to pull a proper build for this. There's the natural Dead Shot deed at level 7 that somehow allows you to do this but it's still happening each round.

Aren't there any rule that allows you to prepare your shot for a / several round(s) to make all the damages at once, or perhaps something that allows you to wait to get a guaranteed crit threat ? Or firearms alternate rules that allows you for custom firearms (just like with the crossbows) ?

Thanks for replying ! Yes I know it has been almost a month :D

I discovered the race building rules thanks to you and my GM and I came to an agreement very easily thanks to this tool.

Unfortunatly the Giant was killed very quickly as he ate 3 crits in a row at level 2. That's the second characeter I lose to punny wolves being crit machines in 3 months !

I watched The Green Mile a few days ago and it's inspiring me to create a new character from the idea of a kind, shy and pacifist giant. It would probably be a druid or a bard, I don't know yet.

And I want to accentuate the idea of the solitary, sweet, giant man, so I'd like this character to be large-sized. Problem is that I don't really know how to do it. I know I could use enlarge and permanancy but it doesn't work right as the character is supposed to be naturally large, born like this.

My GM would probably agree on giving me this especially if it's not a charcater that would greatly benefits from it, however I don't like to play off the rules, so do you know any rule or tool that would allow me to do this ?

Wonderstell wrote:

Bob the Brawler wants a magic rapier.

In fact, he wants a rapier with the Igniting special ability.

Magic Weapon: Special Abilities wrote:
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

So before you can add the Igniting ability, the rapier must be at least +1.

So Bob buys a (+1, Igniting) rapier. This has the same price as a +3 rapier, as Igniting is a +2 equivalent ability.

The (+1, Igniting) rapier is not better than a +1 rapier to hit, as they have the same enhancement bonus.


To make this more clear, there is a difference between Enhancement Bonus and Weapon Bonus.

The (+1, Igniting) rapier has the same Enhancement Bonus as a +1 rapier.

The (+1, Igniting) rapier also has the same Weapon bonus as a +3 rapier.


The (+1, Igniting) rapier has an Enhancement bonus of +1 to Attack/Damage.

The +3 rapier has an Enhancement bonus of +3 to Attack/Damage.

Ok, thank you. This is much clearer.

Here's the rule :

Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.

Basically, this feat allows you to craft magic weapons and armors even if you don't have any magic or if you don't have the required spells for a specific magic property.

However I can't figure how it works.

The feat says I use my skill rank as if it was my caster level, however I don't see where my caster level is used.

Under the Magic Items creation rules, it's written that the DC to craft a Magic weapon or armor or whatever is 5+ the item's caster level and 5 per required spells not known, but I don't find what is the item's caster level.

For exemple, if I want to craft a +1 Corrosive Long Sword, my DC will be 5 + 5 because I don't know the Acid Arrows required spell + the item's caster level which is 10 so the total DC is 20 but do I NEED a CL of 10 or does this only increase the DC ?

I can't figure out if the enhancement bonus of a weapon still applies when you have a property.

In other words, let's say I want to craft an Igniting rapier. Igniting is a +2 enhancement bonus equivalent and what I don't understand is if when enchanted the weapon gets both the Igniting property and the +2 enhancement bonus, or if when I enchant to +2 level I have to choose between giving the bonus or the magic property ?

So I got no idea how it works, does misfire stacks with fumble, or replace it ? As if I roll a 1, is it a misfire AND a fumble, or simply a misfire ?

For the first time I'm trying a character that will be able to craft weapons and armors, as I wanted to play this and figured out it would be helpfull for the party to have someone able to create usefull gears.

My character isn't only a craftman as he's now a level 6 human gunslinger with most of his feats directed toward combats. However he got +4 int which allows to pick up some skills after you maxed perception and acrobatics. My forging skills are now maxed and I have master craftsman and masterwork tools to give me together a +4 bonus so for a level 6 character I don't think I can do much more.

But my concern is about the rules of crafting weapons and armors, and more precisely the time it takes to do so.

According to the rules I can find online this is how it works.


The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created. The DC, your check result, and the price of the item determine how long it takes to make a particular item. The item’s finished price also determines the cost of raw materials.

To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.

Find the item’s price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
Find the item’s DC from Table: Craft Skills.
Pay 1/3 of the item’s price for the raw material cost.
Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.

Let's say, to make an exemple, that I want to craft a Rapier that is 20 gp.

20 gp is 200 sp. We'll assume I have collected the materials. According to the table the DC for a martial weapons is 15, so I roll my dice for one week of work. Let's say I roll 10 (average) and add my bonus (+15) so the result is 25. I succeeded, so now I multiply the DC by my check result : 15 x 25 = 375 which is more than 200 so I successfully made the rapier in roughly 4 days of work.

Am I right ? Is it how it works ?

If yes, then here come the troublesome part :

You can make a masterwork item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield, see Equipment for the price of other masterwork tools) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

Now assuming that everything I've made before was right, imagine that I instead want to make a masterwork rapier.

The price of a masterwork rapier is 320 gp which makes for 3200 sp, DC is 20 so again we'll assume I roll average (10) and add my bonus of +15 to make a 25.

25 x 20 = 500, so in one week I made a progress of 500 over 3200 which is roughly 15%. In other words, to create a "simple" longswords (so before even thinking of being able to enchant it) it'll take me more than 6 weeks !

And this is for a single, simple weapon of only one party member. If someone wants a crossbow it'll take me half a year to make it. I know that making a sword can't be done between 2 tea sips, but high quality blades such as katanas were made in hours or a day or two. Even the ulfberht that's probably the best analogy "masterwork" took "only" a few full days of work to a man that made one for the first time.

So taking months to make such crafts doesn't make much sense to me, despite being undoable in campains in which time is an important factor which is very common. So did I miss something, am I doing it wrong or is it really how it works ?

But what are +1, +3 etc related to ? How much gold does, for instance, +1 costs ? I checked the magical items page but didn't manage to understand.

Heather 540 wrote:
You can also buy a Plume of Panache. It uses the Head Slot, costs 1000 gold, and gives you one extra point of panache a day.

This seems good. In two items I have the equivalent of a whole feat for extra panache, this is nice.

While we're at it, how do I determine the price of an item ? For Flamboyant, for example, it says "price : +1 bonus". What does it exactly means ?

Dilvias wrote:

Inspired Blades get improved critical at 5th anyway, so I'd not bother with Keen.

Yeah, I'd rather get Flamboyant for extra panache.

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Combat Expertise allows you to get improved disarm, and latter disarming strike. Add in agile maneuvers and you end up with a very effective swordsman. He has a good chance of disarming his opponent without having to waste an attack on disarming. Considering the swashbuckler will have a threat range of 15-20 that means that 25% of your attacks have a chance of disarming your opponent.
30% chance.

In fact I'll max both. I'll be the group's face (as I love doing this job and the other players hate it) so I'll have bluff, diplomacy, sense motive and intimidate maxed anyway.

Well then I think I'll just build as Weapon Focus and Fencing Grace on an inspired blade, then get survivability feats and when reaching enough BAB get some critical feats.

What are good defensive feats for this kind of character ? There are Combat Expertise and Dodge, but they don't seem that great, even if they're preriquistes for a lot of feats (such as lightning stance which seems to be really good). There's also the improved feint branch that can be good, espcially since I'll have good charsima and will max bluff every level.

But in the end, I was expecting to find really strong feats such as Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload and Deadly Aim are with my Gunslinger but there doesn't seem to be anything like that :/

avr wrote:

A mobile fighter which can stand solid might be a magus, since bladed dash w/spell combat is a mobile full attack, or shocking grasp is nearly as effective on one attack as a full attack. Or something like a character aiming for reach via great size, where repositioning to stay out or the enemies reach while keeping the enemy within yours is the name of the game. This is one of the situations where vital strike builds are excusable. Goliath druids and aberrant bloodragers are good at this. Swashbuckler 1 as a dip on a mobile rogue (or on an alchemist w/vivisectionist or grenadier archetype, or on an investigator; I've seen the last and it works) for the parry to give them a chance against full melee types could also work.

I fail to see where bladed dash significantly differs from spring attack, despite the fact that it's not a feat and so accessed more easily. I'll keep the idea of aberrant bloodrager based on AOO for a later character tho, looks pretty fun aswell.

Thing is the Dex - Charisma base of the Swashbukler represent very well the type of character I want to play. I hesitate to play either this Swashbuckler or a Rogue.

About the parry, I don't think it's something I can really rely on. It costs a Panache point, so I can't use it reliabily. In a combat heavy day I'll probably run out of panache before the end of the day.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The swashbuckler also uses a specific combat style.

Okay but I fail to see what this combat style is really. Okay you have deeds but they're a tool you have to use carefully troughout the day as you won't earn Panache easily.

I have different gear, I use Dex to pump up my AC instead of armor, but in the end the playstyle is the same right ? I stand in, roll attack dices and pray ? I don't move, flank or kite ? Or at least not more than I'd do with an other more usual melee ?

avr wrote:

Swashbucklers get weapon finesse via swashbuckler's finesse. They don't need to spend a feat. It doesn't apply to a longsword or whatever until they get slashing grace, but as a human you could get weapon focus (some slashing weapon) and slashing grace at level 1. You don't have to sacrifice any feats if you'd have been going for fencing grace otherwise anyway, the cost is the same. That said there's nothing wrong with using a rapier on a swashbuckler.

Spring attack is thematic and not particularly good in most situations for a swashbuckler. The class is sold as being about mobility but gains little advantage from being mobile. Annoying, eh?

If you're a major part of the front line in your group then you may want combat reflexes both for extra potential parries in a tight spot and to take more attacks of opportunity. It can lead on to other feats like swordplay style or bodyguard later on if you wish. If there are 2-3 other people on the front line that's not so necessary.

Extra panache is a useful feat especially if you have 14 or lower charisma, and you might want combat expertise, dirty fighting or power attack if you want to indulge in combat maneuvers.

Huh, too bad :/

In fact we're going to be a 3-men party, and we won't know each others characters before we start to play, so we aren't opimizing to have the most balanced and well rounded party ever.

The GM ensured us that he'll make it doable for the party we'll have, but that it'll be difficult and that we should spend time to build efficient characters.

I went Swashbuckler because it looked like a more classy and mobile fighter. I was planning to move a lot, harass the ennemy and be able to go for the backline like a Rogue do, while being able to stand solid against full melee focused foes. Isn't it what it's doing ? What does a swashbuckler do that makes him different from a fighter ?

Heather 540 wrote:
It's also about giving any class that needs it Dex to Damage. Besides, Swashbuckler's Finesse just give you Weapon Finesse for piercing weapons. You don't get Dex to Damage with it. Even with a rapier, you would still need the Fencing Grace feat to get that. Slashing Grace simply allows a Swashbuckler more options for weapons. Whether you want to use it or not is up to you.

Alright. So assuming that my swashbuckler will be a level 1 human, in order to get Slashing Grace I should first pick Weapon Finesse for slash weapons (it's well stated that it's granted only for piercing weapons), then Weapon Focus for said weapon and finally Slashing Grace at level 3.

Or I could simply stick with piercing weapon, and if I want the extra DX damage simply get Weapon Focus and Fencing Grace, which I can do from level 1 if I want to. This solution looks much more appealing.

But when I'm looking at guides here and there people always want Slashing Grace, so why would it be so good on a Swashbuckler ? As you said it gives me more options, but is slash damage really worth sacrificing 3 feats ?

I could (should ?) also get dodge in order to get Spring Attack later on. What do you think about Spring Attack on a Swashbuckler ? It works well the kind of thing you imagine about such a swordsman but is it really useful when anything with hands / tentacles / whatever can just retain his action and grab me ? I'm a bit lost in my build tbh x)

No. I was wondering if those weapons were considered as both piercing and slicing, since they have both a slicy edge and a tippy end. And if it was the case, apply slashing grace to them in order to add the dexterity bonus to damages a second time.

If it doesn't work, what's the whole purpose of slashing grace ? A rapier does have the same stats as cutlass / scimitar, except that it's a piercing weapon. A longswords gain a tad of damages but has a lower crit range so isn't worth aswell.

Why would I use something else than a rapier, where the only thing that it does is forcing me to pick an additional feat to be efficient ? Are there moves that are only avalaible to slash weapons ?


Are longswords, scimitars, cutlass etc. considered as both slashing and piercing weapons ?

And if so, does swashbucklers finesse adds to slashing grace when attacking with such a weapon ?

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