| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wonder when we will be able to FAQ things in this forum? This one is a good candidate.
Of course, my bias comes from a D&D 5E game where I had a bard multiclass into fighter. Given his low strength and high dexterity, his PF2 counterpart would never have been able to do that.
Seems like a steep price if that is intended. Peeps over at Herolab forums are asking the same question. Personally think 16 in the key state makes more sense than 14 in 2 stats that may or may not be the way you play.
Nudge as well for official clarification on this one. I am pretty sure it will be 14 in both, but not sure the reasoning behind this and would appreciate some insight from the powers that be!
Thanks!
|
Let's see, using the visual of the Dwarf Druid MC Barbarian
(A) Dwarf: +2 Con +2 Wis (+2 Str)
(B) Gladiator: +2 Strength (+2 Dex)
(C) Druid: +2 Wisdom
(D) +2 Con +2 Dex +2 Str +2 Wis
Starting score:
16 Strength
14 Dexterity
14 Constitution
10 Intelligence
16 Wisdom
08 Charisma
So me working on a theme and not really paying attention Barbarian MC is avaiable as soon as possible.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seems like a steep price if that is intended. Peeps over at Herolab forums are asking the same question. Personally think 16 in the key state makes more sense than 14 in 2 stats that may or may not be the way you play.
Nudge as well for official clarification on this one. I am pretty sure it will be 14 in both, but not sure the reasoning behind this and would appreciate some insight from the powers that be!
Thanks!
Well, during the playtest there was a fair amount of griping that 16 was high enough that being able to actually take a dedication at 2nd level could be fairly difficult, unless it already used the same stat as your primary class (Barbarian and Fighter, for example), or a god-stat like Dex.
14/14 seems limited to the classes that are relatively easy to pillage, either because they have a lot of feats (monk, fighter), get a lot of stuff up front (champion- all the armor) or an easy to grab combat enhancer (barbarian- rage). Spellcaster gains from the multiclass feats are pretty regiment and require a lot of investment, so I guess didn't need the double stat requirement.
Meanwhile rogue simply won't let you take its good stuff. (Dex to damage or level appropriate sneak attack)
But honestly this doesn't actually need clarification- there isn't actually any ambiguity to what's written, just people wishing it weren't the case.
|
|
What were their actual builds? Just the class doesn’t really tell much.
As for the Paladin, you get stat boosts at 5th level, but before that, having lower stats but more attributes means these are open to more classes, whereas 16a tends to be harder to get unless there’s synchronicity in those classes.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
rogue is realistically sinking points into Strength?
A ruffian? ;)
But yeah, I get what you mean. When they revealed mountain stance I dreamt of a dwarven Irori Cleric with Monk multiclass to use Mountain stance for decent AC with no Dex or armor. Now Monk requires 14 Strength and Dex, making the whole thing fall flat.
|
Well with the way retraining works out I think you could use your 5th level ability boosts to meet prereqs and then retrain 2nd level feat for dedication- because while you treat yourself as level 2 for the purposes of what feat you can retrain I didn’t see anything about how you can’t use your current scores to determine whether or not you meet prerequisites.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Syries has it right. You have to remember the level at which you obtained a given feat, but you do not need to keep a record of your ability score increases. In theory, you could have qualified for a multiclass dedication feat by taking your ability score boosts in a different order.
|
|
Nope, I was wrong.
...For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat.
This has two very unfortunate consequences; the latter of which I’m not sure the game designers intended. First, you can’t use your current ability scores to determine feat prereqs, you MUST remember your characters feats and ability scores from the level at which you wish to retrain. Secondly, and even more troublesome- you cannot use a lower level retrained feat as a prereq for a higher level retrained feat. so let’s say you’re a 5th level Ranger with Monster Hunter picked at 1st, Monster Warden at 2nd, and Disrupt Prey at 4th. But you decide you actually want to be more focused on animal companions so you retrain. You want Animal Companion and Companions Cry now. Thinking you could do so, you retrain Monster Hunter for Animal Companion. Congrats, you now have a fuzzy black bear you’ve named Teddy. You start to retrain Disrupt Prey but wait! Your GM is a huge stickler for the RAW and points out you didn’t have the Animal Companion feat when you took Disrupt Prey, therefore you don’t qualify to retrain for Companions Call. So now instead of having two animal companion feats and another 1st or 2nd level feat from retraining Monster Warden, you’re only at 1 Companion feat and two feats you didn’t even necessarily want.
If I just completely ignore the "cannot retrain to a feat you didn't meet the non-level prereq for at the time" clause, is that liable to cause problems?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I just completely ignore the "cannot retrain to a feat you didn't meet the non-level prereq for at the time" clause, is that liable to cause problems?
Hardly. Getting a second level feat like the multclass dedication at levels 6+ shouldn't break anything. I doubt anyone will be able to tell the difference.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Playing a wizard who wants to be able to use shortswords or rapiers, Fighter Dedication was the way to go. Now though, what wizard sinks a 14 into Strength? Dexterity makes sense for the AC, but strength? Not so much. My GM is running as it was for the playtest in this regard, seeing as there is no 'official' clarification yet as far as I can see, but as a whole, I feel multiclass dedication as a whole was nerfed to discourage players from doing so. The benefits suffered from playtest to release, and even in the playtest, it felt very restrictive. I am hoping that up coming class archetypes will aleveiate this lack of customization.
In addition to AoO-seekers, MC fighter is also appealing for -
* Many characters who want to fight with two weapons. Double Slice maths out to being an effective part of an attack routine even with other options that are available.
* Many characters that want to focus on grabs, both for the grab-related feats themselves and for the one-weapon-free-hand feats.
* Archers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Playing a wizard who wants to be able to use shortswords or rapiers, Fighter Dedication was the way to go. Now though, what wizard sinks a 14 into Strength? Dexterity makes sense for the AC, but strength? Not so much.
STR enables Armor (without skill/speed penalties) which yields equal/better AC than DEX, with less required stat investment. Just Trained Heavy Armor can outdo Expert Untrained for all but high DEX build, besides also qualifying for Fortification. Just Trained Medium with no/low DEX is fine for AC superiority at low levels, with moderate initial STR and Proficiency investment. Chain lets you avoid Acrobat/Athletics penalty even if your STR doesn't meet rating, while having better AC for <14DEX characters.
IMHO, it's not necessarily about the dichotomies you first assumed, but about broader trade offs and choices of focus. If you're interested in martial weapons in first place, getting STR damage bonus with them seems relevant to making effective use of them (if using action for melee damage, doing more/reliable damage is good). While Armor is just as, if not more, valid approach to AC compared to DEX, although you obviously you need Armor Training somehow. DEX can be valuable, but not so much for those things, and there is trade-offs and costs for everything.
|
|
What Classes would take MC Fighter? The visual in the book was Monk but that's a lot of easy overlap there.I am considering it for my monk, mostly to gain access to AoO.
Stand Still is a reaction that works similarly to AoO, but it only provokes from movement rather than move or manipulate actions. So 2 feats for AoO or 1 feat for a weaker AoO, it’s up to you.
Playing a wizard who wants to be able to use shortswords or rapiers, Fighter Dedication was the way to go. Now though, what wizard sinks a 14 into Strength? Dexterity makes sense for the AC, but strength?
I assume one that wants to use shortswords or rapiers like a fighter.