Mini Guides to Starting Ability Scores & Background


Advice


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Yarr, after spending a few hours trying to wrap my head around basic character creation I thought I'd share my notes in the form of a pair of miniguides.

1. Starting Ability Scores. Turns out you can have whatever ancestry you want and make a competent anything.

2. Background. Each comes with a skill feat but those skill feats vary massive in quality.

Ability Scores

Backgrounds

Liberty's Edge

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I strongly disagree with...at least half of your Background ratings. Lie To Me is ridiculously awesome and I'd rate Green for any Cha based character, just for example, while Assurance (Athletics) is a fine Feat for succeeding at below-level checks (a common occurrence) automatically.

This is not to say it's a bad list, exactly, more one based on a style of game that's alien to me, with social stuff in particular valued vastly lower than I would based on my own Pathfinder experiences.

OF course, I play Paizo APs, so maybe my experience is a relevant metric...


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I strongly disagree with...at least half of your Background ratings. Lie To Me is ridiculously awesome and I'd rate Green for any Cha based character, just for example, while Assurance (Athletics) is a fine Feat for succeeding at below-level checks (a common occurrence) automatically.

This is not to say it's a bad list, exactly, more one based on a style of game that's alien to me, with social stuff in particular valued vastly lower than I would based on my own Pathfinder experiences.

OF course, I play Paizo APs, so maybe my experience is a relevant metric...

Assurance (athletics) lets a level 7 master trip a level 7 ogre boss without rolling and ignores multiple attack penalty. It lets a level 8 expert do the same, and also leap 20 feet straight up without rolling if they have Sudden Leap. That's before you get into climbing and swimming.


Yeah, I wrote up a list of critiques of specific entries but it feels overkill to post them all.
Color scheme is bad (out of natural order), RYGB is good 4-color scheme (RYOGB or RYGBP if 5-color).
So much negative snarking on repetitive angles which seem oblivious of general system dynamics like nothing SHOULD ever give across the board success tier upgrade, if it is across the board it should be very narrow scope, otherwise it will be restricted (CF->F or S->CS).
Analysis of stuff like rolls with penalties seems off, if it's extra roll on top then it's directly a bonus (e.g. fast Gather Info can allow 2 checks in time only 1 normally allowed, or allow ONE check when none otherwise could happen). Small penalties can be offset by Aid etc, and even if not why not consider the unique benefit in context of spending a Hero Point on penalized check?
Misunderstanding of DC ranges, standard modifiers exist for "easier" checks, -2 DC being reasonably common, not to mention non-Level scaled DCs with "Untrained" being category that actually covers alot of frequent speedbumps.
Misunderstanding of value of Assurance, besides what others mentioned (especially re: MAP), it should be noted how it's disproportionately great for people with poor STR to at least cover the low-level "speedbump" checks.
Overall way too much bickering tone with "Too bad..." commentary that often feels derived from narrow assumptions and simply not stepping further into analysis. Better to just clearly state who it is attractive for, with even "Red" ratings potentially positive for certain characters.

I think useful angle would be pointing out which are attractive for characters who won't have high stat in either of 2 designated stats, which is notable vs those who are ideal for those aiming for high value in designated stat(s). Obviously you can't have absolute worst score given requirement to boost one of designated stats, but that can easily be only boost you put in stat (and it can merely offset flaw).


There's only 75 ways for humans to arrange their ancestry boosts.

There's 15 options for arranging two boosts

Spoiler:
+Str +Dex
+Str +Con
+Str +Int
+Str +Wis
+Str +Cha
+Dex +Con
+Dex +Int
+Dex +Wis
+Dex +Cha
+Con +Int
+Con +Wis
+Con +Cha
+Int +Wis
+Int +Cha
+Wis +Cha

and there's 20 options for arranging three boosts, each of which has three options for arranging two flaws

Spoiler:
+Str +Dex +Con
+Str +Dex +Int
+Str +Dex +Wis
+Str +Dex +Cha
+Str +Con +Int
+Str +Con +Wis
+Str +Con +Cha
+Str +Int +Wis
+Str +Int +Cha
+Str +Wis +Cha
+Dex +Con +Int
+Dex +Con +Wis
+Dex +Con +Cha
+Dex +Int +Wis
+Dex +Int +Cha
+Dex +Wis +Cha
+Con +Int +Wis
+Con +Int +Cha
+Con +Wis +Cha
+Int +Wis +Cha


You left off all the arrangements that pair a bonus and flaw, which are poor, but I believe legal choices for humans.

Silver Crusade

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It seems a pity that two of the most obvious, least immediately interesting backgrounds are so mechanically good. Entertainer is not a particularly imaginative background for a Bard to take, but Fascinating Performance as a free feat is hard to ignore. It's so good. Similarly with Warrior. For an intimidation Barbarian (going on the route to get Scare to Death) that Intimidating Glare feat is gold, but a Warrior Barbarian isn't so inspiring.

On the other hand, both of those backgrounds are so broad that a decent back story can be made. Entertainer is anything from a jester to a playwright to a rapper. Warrior can be a guard or a gladiator or that village boy who must venture out for a trophy to become a man.

Edit- just seen the Age of Ashes players guide (gasp!) and for that barbarian, Dragon Scholar is just as good and much groovier. Get that. Dragons!

Designer

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Captain Morgan wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I strongly disagree with...at least half of your Background ratings. Lie To Me is ridiculously awesome and I'd rate Green for any Cha based character, just for example, while Assurance (Athletics) is a fine Feat for succeeding at below-level checks (a common occurrence) automatically.

This is not to say it's a bad list, exactly, more one based on a style of game that's alien to me, with social stuff in particular valued vastly lower than I would based on my own Pathfinder experiences.

OF course, I play Paizo APs, so maybe my experience is a relevant metric...

Assurance (athletics) lets a level 7 master trip a level 7 ogre boss without rolling and ignores multiple attack penalty. It lets a level 8 expert do the same, and also leap 20 feet straight up without rolling if they have Sudden Leap. That's before you get into climbing and swimming.

Another fun one is a level 2 rogue (or character with an archetype that allows expert Athletics via its dedication) with Assurance (Athletics) and expert Athletics can auto-trip a level 3 ogre warrior, which is either a solo boss in a low threat encounter or a boss with some minions in a harder encounter, or potentially one of two ogres in a particularly severe boss fight (both of which you can then auto-trip).


It's one skill feat, background is pretty easy to not stress about.

I would say the cleric in example 3 should boost cha instead of con if you're trying to show optimal characters.

Shadow Lodge

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Added to the 2nd Edition Guide to the Guides!


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I'd like to argue that a couple Backgrounds are better than they're given credit for.

The Bounty Hunter Background should be Orange, not Red. By taking Assurance, you negate most of the penalty for builds without very high Wisdom, which means, while it needs support, it could work.

Farmhand should also be rated as Orange instead of Red. Assurance in Athletics makes for a very OP third attack; with investment in it, you can regularly use a good maneuver that's likely to work (100% or 0%, but more enemies lose to it than not). Disarm and Trip, basically. Granted, it takes a level (for Rogues) or two (everyone else) to come online, and requires a focus.

Laborer: I've done a few builds, and Hefty Hauler is virtually a must for martials. It should be at least Green over Orange. Also, Athletics is a powerful option (see my argument for Farmhand)

Scholar: Assurance in the knowledge skills is situational, but it does allow, with skill investment, for 100% guaranteed lower-level rituals to succeed without mental stat investment. It also gives a good set of choices for a skill, and those skills are all useful. I'd argue for Orange.


I'm not sure if OP is updating the guide any longer, but I agree that Assurance (Athletics) and Hefty Hauler are deeply underrated. Hefty Hauler is amazing unless you're flat-out not tracking encumbrance or are a monk or maybe a barbarian.

Entertainer seems like a very poor candidate for being called a "a good option overall." It gives you training in a skill that most characters care about only very marginally, if at all. The feat wants you to continue to invest in this skill that only bards and maybe some goblins actually care about, and if you do, your payoff is that you can, for six seconds, distract one or more creatures, maybe, provided that they're not doing anything important. It feels hard to consider that a "good option overall." I'd call it a maybe option for a character that was already going to invest in performance regardless.


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Joyd wrote:

I'm not sure if OP is updating the guide any longer, but I agree that Assurance (Athletics) and Hefty Hauler are deeply underrated. Hefty Hauler is amazing unless you're flat-out not tracking encumbrance or are a monk or maybe a barbarian.

Entertainer seems like a very poor candidate for being called a "a good option overall." It gives you training in a skill that most characters care about only very marginally, if at all. The feat wants you to continue to invest in this skill that only bards and maybe some goblins actually care about, and if you do, your payoff is that you can, for six seconds, distract one or more creatures, maybe, provided that they're not doing anything important. It feels hard to consider that a "good option overall." I'd call it a maybe option for a character that was already going to invest in performance regardless.

Fascinating Performance is honestly what I'd call a "wipe your ass" feat. Fascinate is a very situational condition that may very well do nothing to a creature that's using martial attacks, so it's a bit surprising why this isn't just a regular Trained action for Performance. You're just making a distraction that only lasts a round, and you have to crit for it to have any effect in combat wherein again it's not going to have much impact because Fascinate doesn't actually do a whole lot to someone already fighting.

Why can't you just make a distraction with Performance? Why does this need a feat? I imagine most GM's would just allow that use of it without the feat, the feat's not adding any supernatural element nor is it just strictly improving rolls.

Any feat as niche as that that a lot of GM's would just let you do anyways are not worth taking.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I strongly disagree with...at least half of your Background ratings. Lie To Me is ridiculously awesome and I'd rate Green for any Cha based character, just for example, while Assurance (Athletics) is a fine Feat for succeeding at below-level checks (a common occurrence) automatically.

This is not to say it's a bad list, exactly, more one based on a style of game that's alien to me, with social stuff in particular valued vastly lower than I would based on my own Pathfinder experiences.

OF course, I play Paizo APs, so maybe my experience is a relevant metric...

Assurance (athletics) lets a level 7 master trip a level 7 ogre boss without rolling and ignores multiple attack penalty. It lets a level 8 expert do the same, and also leap 20 feet straight up without rolling if they have Sudden Leap. That's before you get into climbing and swimming.

Wait, a ogre boss has +17 fortitude ( which means a 27 fortitude CD ).

How is a master athletics supposed to bring him down with assurance ( since you don't add your str modifier, if i recall correctly )?

10 ( from assurance ) + 7 ( from lvl ) + 6 ( master lvl ) = 23
vs
27 CD.

Am I missing something?

Liberty's Edge

Trip is versus Reflex, not Fortitude.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Trip is versus Reflex, not Fortitude.

Thanks!


Captain Morgan wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I strongly disagree with...at least half of your Background ratings. Lie To Me is ridiculously awesome and I'd rate Green for any Cha based character, just for example, while Assurance (Athletics) is a fine Feat for succeeding at below-level checks (a common occurrence) automatically.

This is not to say it's a bad list, exactly, more one based on a style of game that's alien to me, with social stuff in particular valued vastly lower than I would based on my own Pathfinder experiences.

OF course, I play Paizo APs, so maybe my experience is a relevant metric...

Assurance (athletics) lets a level 7 master trip a level 7 ogre boss without rolling and ignores multiple attack penalty. It lets a level 8 expert do the same, and also leap 20 feet straight up without rolling if they have Sudden Leap. That's before you get into climbing and swimming.

It's a way to estimate the opponent save without having to critfail first on a spell, besides that combining with fear and debuffs you can trip level apropriated foes without worrying too much.

Also it's a fun way for your dex focused character to trip someone without investing anything in str ^^

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