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I do find it funny that this is an "adventurers town" and yet there isn't a huge industry involved in keeping adventurers here. It's more akin to the MMORPG starting towns.
Ah, but Breachill is being very clever by doing that. See, if they built an industry around retaining adventurers of ever increasing level, all that would accomplish is that the town would be constantly threatened by ever increasing threats; the kind that can eat half the population for dinner, then come back for seconds. By instead focusing on a constant supply of starting adventurers that then leave town for higher level pastures, the Breachill Council all but guarantees that the only problems that would ever plague the town are low-threat first level menaces, to be dealt with by the month's current batch of wannabe heroes.
Of course, the nearby abandoned citadel ruins that hard work; that's just begging for adventurers to make themselves at home there. They nearly get away with it, too, what with the portal network keeping the adventurers away from town, but alas, keeping high-level adventurers on hand only means the town must resign itself to eventually becoming the Doomed Hometown™ facing dragonstormy destruction
Adventures 3 and 6 have a little bit more going on in Breachill, but it's the back covers of every volume you'll be wanting to check out. We're putting 2 more portraits of Breechill citizens (or in a few cases, others the PCs meet elsewhere) on the inside back cover along with a little bit more character info for GMs who want to have those NPCs play larger roles in their game.
As for Ralldar... do what feels right for your game. And barghests can absolutely stand on their hind legs like that, and do so often.
Oh, so we'll see more Breachill faces in the coming months? Cool! Reminds me of the Shattered Star npcs who gave you extra quests from the inside covers (the art was real nice!).
And I didn't know that about barghests... I'm changing his loot to gear he's wearing and wielding, I think.
Thank you for your patience, JJ!
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I do find it funny that this is an "adventurers town" and yet there isn't a huge industry involved in keeping adventurers here. It's more akin to the MMORPG starting towns.[snip] They nearly get away with it, too...[/snipdestruction
If not for those meddling kids and their dog?
I'm giggling! Giggling, I say! ^_^
I'm playing around with recreating Citadel Alterein in with Dwarven Forge, and while I'm used to the usual adjustments needed to make pre-printed maps works with 3d terrain, I was wondering what elements , if any, of the layout of rooms or perimeter profile are especially characteristic of Hellnight Fortresses that should be preserved.
Is the octagonal courtyard a key feature for instance (squaring it off allows for some other interesting tricks for the battlements and the Halls surrounding it). Is the asymmetry of the N/S wings a defining characteristic? The sunken center courtyard?
Maybe this is less of a GM Reference question, but does seem more likely to get a response from the T-Rex here :)
Hellknight Regalia
I've been searching this thread for the answer, but can't find it.
I've seen Hellknight regalia mentioned several times in the thread and in the Hellknight Hill AP, but I have not found where or how to acquire such regalia. Granted, I've just skimmed the AP, and searched the AP PDF for the word "regalia," but have not noticed the means by which the PCs can acquire them.
Any pointers as to where I can find the section that describes the PCs' acquisition of Hellknight regalia?
advTHANKSance
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Hellknight Regalia
I've been searching this thread for the answer, but can't find it.I've seen Hellknight regalia mentioned several times in the thread and in the Hellknight Hill AP, but I have not found where or how to acquire such regalia. Granted, I've just skimmed the AP, and searched the AP PDF for the word "regalia," but have not noticed the means by which the PCs can acquire them.
Any pointers as to where I can find the section that describes the PCs' acquisition of Hellknight regalia?
advTHANKSance
I'm pretty sure it's referring to the Order of the Nail insignias the party can find in A6.
I'm not sure about that, since...I'm pretty sure it's referring to the Order of the Nail insignias the party can find in A6.Hellknight Regalia
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Any pointers as to where I can find the section that describes the PCs' acquisition of Hellknight regalia?advTHANKSance
These insignias were originally tokens for recruits, called armigers, to wear during drills in the courtyard...
That doesn't sound like regalia to me. You may be right, though.
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I'm not sure about that, since...I'm pretty sure it's referring to the Order of the Nail insignias the party can find in A6.Hellknight Regalia
... deleted ...
Any pointers as to where I can find the section that describes the PCs' acquisition of Hellknight regalia?advTHANKSance
That doesn't sound like regalia to me. You may be right, though.These insignias were originally tokens for recruits, called armigers, to wear during drills in the courtyard...
I think they're specifically using regalia to be broad as to what qualifies, because in addition to the insignias, there are also the various bits of armor that can be cobbled together for a set of shoddy full plate in the foyer.
There's another spot (Area B2) in chapter 3 where it mentions "the sight of anyone wearing any Hellknight insignias or gear" which I would basically expect to be what's intended by Hellknight regalia.
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Having read through the adventure now, I was struck by quite a few elements that people have already commented on earlier in the thread and in the reviews for book 1. The one that struck me most was the following:
Why is almost every NPC hilariously incompetent?
I've recently been running book 1 of the original Rise of the Runelords. Over the course of that first book, the main villain of the story and her lieutenants accomplish much of what they set out to do. I'll refrain from listing any specifics, but people they want to die end up dying, things they want to sacrifice to foul gods get sacrificed. There's a real sense that its only the intervention of the PCs that stops them from completing their evil plans.
In comparison, the most NPCs in Hellknight Hill are bumbling idiots.
Only Voz and Alak seem competent at pursuing their own stated goals.
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I'm currently in the middle of a rewrite to make the Cinderclaws much more of an immediate threat, to make Calmont a more relevant and interesting minor villain (instead of "I don't like my boss, so I'm going to incidentally murder random people while I look to become rich."), and to basically write Warbal out of the story.
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To be fair on those of those, Bumblebrasher goblins are pretty much civilians commoners as far as adventure treats them, so kinda feels like everyone in tribe is peaceful enough that none of them are actually warriors :p (note: I have just skim read adventure so I might be forgetting stuff to contrary)
And on 20 feet climb, from real life perspective that does look intimidating, especially if there aren't obvious handles. Its not really implausible that if none of them are experienced climbers that they would be skittish to try to do so(even if mechanically its easy or they have enough skills for it), they are cultists not athletes.
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I was just rereading the Breachill Gazetteer and I'm slightly confused about the dates. It says in the Town History, the Player's Guide, and the Campaign Timeline that Breachill was founded in 4520 AR but then it also says that as a town, it is just shy of 170 years old. I thought the current date was meant to be 4719 AR, which is one year off being 200 years old. Is it meant to be 200?
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I was just rereading the Breachill Gazetteer and I'm slightly confused about the dates. It says in the Town History, the Player's Guide, and the Campaign Timeline that Breachill was founded in 4520 AR but then it also says that as a town, it is just shy of 170 years old. I thought the current date was meant to be 4719 AR, which is one year off being 200 years old. Is it meant to be 200?
Does that take into account the amnesia bit?
I was just rereading the Breachill Gazetteer and I'm slightly confused about the dates. It says in the Town History, the Player's Guide, and the Campaign Timeline that Breachill was founded in 4520 AR but then it also says that as a town, it is just shy of 170 years old. I thought the current date was meant to be 4719 AR, which is one year off being 200 years old. Is it meant to be 200?Does that take into account the amnesia bit?
I think so? The timeline at the back says Mengkare leaves Breachill in 4521, and they definitely have records of all that.
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My first take on a quick reading of Hellknight hill was disappointment that everything about the town felt off in a MMO kind of sense: The premise of the Call for Heroes feeling particularly off in a weird "who would do this?" kind of way, and because where are all the other heroes, if this is such a known thing?
But I really like the writing of Amanda Hamon and I figured that there must have been something I was missing, and on rereading the adventure synopsis and the larger narrative, I realized this town is really weird and should feel that way, but am not sure how quickly to push the weirdness on to the PCs, because I don't want them getting totally creeped out vibes, to the point that they want to avoid going in town at all.
Davido has gone to pretty great lengths to address the issues in a way that will hopefully work well for his players and campaign, but is probably adding more stuff than I really want to account for, especially folding the gallows of madness stuff in.
I am more interested in how much other GMs are pushing Breechill as a totally normal adventuring town, or are trying to work in elements of The Stepford Wives this early in the campaign?
Davido, your write-up is truly impressive. I wish I was running this AP in the near future now so I could use it... sadly, my groups will likely stick with 1st edition for years (especially as it will TAKE years to finish Hell's Rebels with one 4-hour session every 2-4 weeks, and my RoW game being every other week) so by then I'll probably sadly forget. :/
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I'm curious what your general ideas are to make him a bit more interesting. While it's not like it isn't realistic to meet people who are absolutely incompetent and from the outside appear like there ideas are almost intentional self sabotage (I have met a few irl). I am going to be starting this adventure in a week or two and am curious how you might spice up the opening a bit.
I think having folks be incompetent can be fun, but it generally turns them into comic relief and totally undercuts them as a villain.
What I want to do with Calmont is to make him a petty tyrant. Story wise:
This turns the ground level of the Citadel into Calmont's petty little kingdom where he's oppressing goblins using magic scrolls given to him by the true villains down below.
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To be fair on those of those, Bumblebrasher goblins are pretty much civilians commoners as far as adventure treats them, so kinda feels like everyone in tribe is peaceful enough that none of them are actually warriors :p (note: I have just skim read adventure so I might be forgetting stuff to contrary)
And on 20 feet climb, from real life perspective that does look intimidating, especially if there aren't obvious handles. Its not really implausible that if none of them are experienced climbers that they would be skittish to try to do so(even if mechanically its easy or they have enough skills for it), they are cultists not athletes.
RE: Goblins being civilians: I agree that these guys are civilians, though that doesn't make them helpless, they're still goblins!
The adventure goes out of its way to disarm them - the PCs find that in the courtyard "No fewer than seven dogslicers, three shortbows and 15 arrows lie scattered about the courtyard, weapons dropped by the panicked goblins". Effectively, these guys dropped ALL their weapons in trying to flee the grauladon. That sure is a convenient coincidence so that one bookseller's apprentice with a dagger can hold their tribe hostage. :>RE: Cinderclaws: My point is that the main villains of the adventure are being stymied by something so simple. The idea that they're not doing everything in their power to escape and oppress the good people of Breachhill makes them an unimpressive threat.
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I wish I was running this AP in the near future now so I could use it... sadly, my groups will likely stick with 1st edition for years (especially as it will TAKE years to finish Hell's Rebels with one 4-hour session every 2-4 weeks, and my RoW game being every other week) so by then I'll probably sadly forget. :/
I don't know if it'll be useful to you given your group is currently preoccupied, but I did do a 1st edition Conversion guide for Hellknight Hill (direct google doc link), and plan to convert the entire AP in time.
I wish I was running this AP in the near future now so I could use it... sadly, my groups will likely stick with 1st edition for years (especially as it will TAKE years to finish Hell's Rebels with one 4-hour session every 2-4 weeks, and my RoW game being every other week) so by then I'll probably sadly forget. :/I don't know if it'll be useful to you given your group is currently preoccupied, but I did do a 1st edition Conversion guide for Hellknight Hill (direct google doc link), and plan to convert the entire AP in time.
Nice, thank you!
To be honest, I *like* 2nd edition enough that I'm buying it and eventually may even run 2nd edition games. So the AP is still usable. That said, my current tabletop (and two remote player) group does love 1st edition Pathfinder and yet also has some interests in some Hermea and a certain philosophical gold dragon, so I may very well eventually run this for them as 1st edition. ^^
Are there any other "heroes" at the town meeting? Do they all just run off when the building catches on fire? If the whole town is built around hiring adventurers, there should be some other groups that show up, I imagine.
It could be kind of fun to present a red herring adventure that the players might think is intended for them, but have the council decide on hiring a more experienced group instead. The other adventurers go off to the tavern to celebrate, Warble then presents her case, and the fire happens.
On the map of the citadel's first level, there are four circular shapes with three doors each in the hallway that circles the courtyard (A2) - they're also mirrored in the inset map of the battlements. I assume these are towers - but wouldn't there be stairs or a ladder/trapdoor between the tower levels? Which would make the A22 encounter extremely early. Or do they serve some other function?
Creative Director
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On the map of the citadel's first level, there are four circular shapes with three doors each in the hallway that circles the courtyard (A2) - they're also mirrored in the inset map of the battlements. I assume these are towers - but wouldn't there be stairs or a ladder/trapdoor between the tower levels? Which would make the A22 encounter extremely early. Or do they serve some other function?
Those are towers but they don't have stairs leading up. They could if your players want to add them later on, of course, but for now they serve more as decoration on the first floor, and watchtowers above—the only access point is via the central stairs leading up to the battlements.
Having multiple stairs leading up to the battlements makes the whole setup of the adventure break, since this allows the goblins trapped above multiple potential routes to escape.
The idea of only one set of stairs leading to the towers/battlements was to protect those who sought shelter above. It's not the BEST idea, since as you see it's also possible to get trapped up there, but it's a good enough idea that the goblins have been safe for several days. AKA: the design is working as intended.
Thank you very much for the fast response!
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Yeah the adventure just says the PCs are the only ones that show up, but that does seem unlikely/silly. I was going to have others who showed but were less heroic then the main PCs and didn't step up when the fire broke out. (This makes the bold assumption my PCs will brave the fire) I do like the idea of sending other heroes off.Are there any other "heroes" at the town meeting? Do they all just run off when the building catches on fire? If the whole town is built around hiring adventurers, there should be some other groups that show up, I imagine.
It could be kind of fun to present a red herring adventure that the players might think is intended for them, but have the council decide on hiring a more experienced group instead. The other adventurers go off to the tavern to celebrate, Warble then presents her case, and the fire happens.
Adding rival adventuring groups can be a fun way to invoke a sense of competition into the game. We've done this plot a few times before—most recently in Mummy's Mask—but it's a plot that works best when that competition is a significant point of the adventure (or Adventure Path) as a whole.
For Hellknight Hill, which is going to be a LOT of people's first Paizo Adventure Path, we didn't want to overcomplicate the story with forcing the GM to run a bunch of complex recurring adventurer competitors to the plotline, and a competing adventuring group isn't really something that fits in well with the story.
Having the PCs all come together as several different adventures is certainly a great way to have your cake and eat it too—in this case, the multiple adventurers who attend don't end up competing, but end up comprising the latest group to come out of Breachill.
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That sure is a convenient coincidence so that one bookseller's apprentice with a dagger can hold their tribe hostage. :>
As the party is probably going to come across the courtyard battle fairly early, I wonder if it might not work out better to simply have the goblins trapped on the battlements with no Calmont in sight. After being rescued, they would say they were attacked by him demanding to know the location of the lower level entrance, but that they drove him off, and he's probably still lurking in whatever parts of the first level the party has yet to explore. When they go off looking for him, he could stealth up behind and sneak attack whoever is in back, revealing somewhat more sparse info regarding voz and alseta's ring as necessary in the ensuing combat.
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That sure is a convenient coincidence so that one bookseller's apprentice with a dagger can hold their tribe hostage. :>As the party is probably going to come across the courtyard battle fairly early, I wonder if it might not work out better to simply have the goblins trapped on the battlements with no Calmont in sight. After being rescued, they would say they were attacked by him demanding to know the location of the lower level entrance, but that they drove him off, and he's probably still lurking in whatever parts of the first level the party has yet to explore. When they go off looking for him, he could stealth up behind and sneak attack whoever is in back, revealing somewhat more sparse info regarding voz and alseta's ring as necessary in the ensuing combat.
I struggled with how to present this encounter during development. On the one hand, having the PCs faced with a hostage situation makes for a really tense and interesting encounter that injects some social drama and skill checks into the middle of a classic dungeon crawl... but on the other, the timing of it is weird. If the PCs don't go to the battlements until weeks after the adventure begins, it kinda breaks verisimilitude.
The best solution is to be dynamic in game and play it out as best fits. By making it pretty much automatic to hear the commotion in the courtyard once the PCs draw near, the hope is that they get pulled into this encounter relatively early. If in your game the PCs avoid the battlements for too long, you can feel free to have the goblins dead, or just Helba dead, or Calmont dead, or even just have the PCs find Calmont somewhere else in the dungeon.
What's important is to give the PCs story closure on Calmont and the goblins, and to give the PCs the information they need to find the secret door to the dungeon level below.
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I’m a little surprised that the bugbear (I forget her name and chaotic evil she may be) doesn’t seem to have the option of becoming a briefly allied NPC ala Alak.
I mean isn’t she a member or ally of the friendly goblin tribe you’re supposed to rescue?
She's not. She's her own thing. Bugbears are generally creepy loners who are more akin to serial killers than anything else. Of the three goblinoid races, they're the least appropriate for PCs, thematically.
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That sure is a convenient coincidence so that one bookseller's apprentice with a dagger can hold their tribe hostage. :>As the party is probably going to come across the courtyard battle fairly early, I wonder if it might not work out better to simply have the goblins trapped on the battlements with no Calmont in sight. After being rescued, they would say they were attacked by him demanding to know the location of the lower level entrance, but that they drove him off, and he's probably still lurking in whatever parts of the first level the party has yet to explore. When they go off looking for him, he could stealth up behind and sneak attack whoever is in back, revealing somewhat more sparse info regarding voz and alseta's ring as necessary in the ensuing combat.
I'm not a huge fan of reducing Calmont to just a combat encounter. As JJ points out, injecting social drama and skill checks into the middle of the dungeon crawl is good design that adds variety.
Instead, maybe Calmont came upon the goblins, but knowing that there was too many of them, he managed to inveigle the tribe into letting him join them. His ultimate plan being to betray them once they reveal how to get to Alseta's Ring. That way there can be a big confrontation where the PCs call him out on his lies and his crime back in Breachhill. The advantage of this set up is that he can be playing his con for as long as necessary for the PCs to arrive without it seeming unrealistic.
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What is Warbal's outlook on Desna? Warbal is depicted with a massive Desnan symbol in both of her illustrations, and she even has a Desnan symbol listed in her inventory. Her backstory mentions "Desna" zero times.
I like to think that they do not even realize that a butterfly is Desna's symbol, despite her Religion +5. Critical failures on Religion can be a pain.
But really, how does she view Desna?
Also, on the topic of Calmont, I find it rather sketchy that the lesson that the hostage encounter teaches PCs is, "It is okay to not be concerned about the hostage's safety, because the hostage taker might just fumble with their weapon." Does that not teach PCs to have no finesse whatsoever in hostage situations?
Warbal worships Desna. That's pretty much it. We should probalby have talked more about her faith, but her actions are pretty much in keeping with someone who'd be into Desna's teachings and she wouldn't get any game benefit from it. It's just implied flavor, I guess.
As for the topic of Calmont, that's not the intent at all; if you think it teaches the wrong lesson to your players you should absolutely adjust it as you need though... That said... How players and their characters react to that situation in any event is up to them. Not all PCs are into saving hostages.
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Are there any other "heroes" at the town meeting? Do they all just run off when the building catches on fire? If the whole town is built around hiring adventurers, there should be some other groups that show up, I imagine.
It could be kind of fun to present a red herring adventure that the players might think is intended for them, but have the council decide on hiring a more experienced group instead. The other adventurers go off to the tavern to celebrate, Warble then presents her case, and the fire happens.
Possibly the Call for Heroes has a bad reputation. The PCs might be the only group of heroes who didn't hear about the loopholes on the council's rewards (ie paying for Calmonth being "brought to justice", vs being brought back alive "if possible.") Wouldn't take to much of that before heroes didn't bother responding.
We've run in to a couple issues in the run through I am taking part in and advising a new DM on:
First, the birds in B1 do not have Darkvision and are effectively blind according to what I can make of the rules. Even a moderately competent Stealth check seems likely to allow a party to head into the northern or southern hallways without issue unless the DM puts the birds close to the secret door, which doesn't make much sense. This is what our party did and it did not create major issues at this point, but then...
The half-orcs in Guardian's Way suffer from the same issue. They don't have Darkvision and if your party does and they think to go there at night, how does an effectively blind watch person spot anyone? Also, when we arrived here at night we came equipped for a stealthy approach and tactics... Invisibility, Silence, the entire party is Trained in Stealth, etc. But even if we decide the lookout can't spot the party, and even if one of us climbs up to C3 or C5 (we originally looped around to C5) without waking the occupant, what are the rules for taking out a sleeping opponent? In fact, what are the rules for surprise? Is this all now simply DM fiat about what the party can or cannot get away with? Our Rogue also had the idea to use Invisibility and Silence to climb the platforms and steal the alarm bell once she saw it, and again that brought up numerous thorny questions.
I am keenly aware of my 1E bias coming into this game, so I am trying my best to advise the DM without making references to the rules of that game. But after 15+ years of 3.5/PF1E rules, it's hard to yank my brain out of it at times.
Anyone else gone through the above, and if so, how was it handled?
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Voz never made it to the stairs on either basement floor so I don't see any discrepancy with the timeline. On the tomb floor, she fled as soon as she realized there were undead (that she triggered).
But does that actually make sense? For a level 5 necromancer to be scared of low level undead and so she fights her way through caves full of spider monsters instead? When all she had to do was turn a corner and go down some stairs?
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What happens to the Reliant Book Company after the adventure is over? With both Voz and Calmont arrested and/or dead, who inherits the company?
It becomes held by the town itself, and someone could purchase the deed from them. If you want the town to give the store to a PC as a reward, that's kinda cool though!
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Voz never made it to the stairs on either basement floor so I don't see any discrepancy with the timeline. On the tomb floor, she fled as soon as she realized there were undead (that she triggered).But does that actually make sense? For a level 5 necromancer to be scared of low level undead and so she fights her way through caves full of spider monsters instead? When all she had to do was turn a corner and go down some stairs?
An unprepared Necromancer who was simply studying that had a bunch of well armed undead suddenly pop up around her. Better safe than sorry, she's a necromancer not a barbarian.
In the tunnels she is prepared and also has her mercenaries and the Trixitog.
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I ran it from the book with no changes and it's been going well so far. Only thing my PC's did that I had to accommodate was they wanted to go to the bookstore to get more info on Calmont after the fire.
I just had Voz not be there and a random local mentioned seeing her leaving while grumbling about having something stolen from her shop. And that she had fired Calmont.
Haven't had too much reason to change anything else so far.
As the players have just captured Calmont and rescued the Bumblebrashers, when they return to town I'll have them hear rumors of a Hellknight(Alak) being seen in town recently to explain where he came from when/if they encounter him inside.
I'm a little confused as to how the numbers of spectators at the kick-off event are supposed to work.
Page 9, says there 40 spectators aside from the PCs and councilors/Warbal.
Page 10: Says 20 of the 40 get out on their own; while 20 need help
The town councilors rescue 20 spectators if left to their own devices. (But possibly only 15, their last rescue is on the turn spectators fall unconscious, so depending if town councilors go before the hazard's initiative. We're not given initiative modifiers for them though...)
It also says it takes 15 spectators to setup the bucket brigade, but we already have 20 non-endangered spectators that got out immediately?
So one reading says that the PCs are free to completely focus on the fire/fire mephit and that all the spectators will be saved w/o them doing anything. Which seems a little odd to award the 5xp per saved spectator when its nothing they have to do.
I'm not a fan of making things harder for the PCs especially not in the first encounter of the scenario, so I'm happy to run it in what feels like easy mode, but wanted to double check these numbers. I thought it should be an encounter that has the PCs trying to keep the fire away from the rescuee's and working to clear the more endangered side of the room, possibly while engaging the mephit. Felt like it would be very cinematic and fluid. But it almost sounds like the PCs actions won't matter.
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I'm a little confused as to how the numbers of spectators at the kick-off event are supposed to work.
Page 9, says there 40 spectators aside from the PCs and councilors/Warbal.
Page 10: Says 20 of the 40 get out on their own; while 20 need help
The town councilors rescue 20 spectators if left to their own devices. (But possibly only 15, their last rescue is on the turn spectators fall unconscious, so depending if town councilors go before the hazard's initiative. We're not given initiative modifiers for them though...)
It also says it takes 15 spectators to setup the bucket brigade, but we already have 20 non-endangered spectators that got out immediately?
So one reading says that the PCs are free to completely focus on the fire/fire mephit and that all the spectators will be saved w/o them doing anything. Which seems a little odd to award the 5xp per saved spectator when its nothing they have to do.
I'm not a fan of making things harder for the PCs especially not in the first encounter of the scenario, so I'm happy to run it in what feels like easy mode, but wanted to double check these numbers. I thought it should be an encounter that has the PCs trying to keep the fire away from the rescuee's and working to clear the more endangered side of the room, possibly while engaging the mephit. Felt like it would be very cinematic and fluid. But it almost sounds like the PCs actions won't matter.
If I recall correctly, the bucket brigade doesn't work properly unless someone is guiding them. So the councillors can save other citizens OR they can help run the bucket brigade, but I don't think they're capable of both. The players should need to pick up the remaining slack.