1 - Hellknight Hill (GM Reference)


Age of Ashes

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Captain Morgan wrote:
Porridge wrote:

--Question: On p49, under the description of encounter C2, it mentions that the party can make one Diplomacy or Intimidation check to get the guard to call Dmiri out to speak with the PCs. But I can't find any further guidance about this in the AP. How is this conversation supposed to go?

.
Anybody got thoughts on this question? I am coming up on this moment myself and am not sure what to do yet. She seems fairly loyal to Voz and is expecting do gooders. Conflict seems somewhat inevitable, but I'm not sure why it would include the bit about attempting the single check against her subordinate.

Oh yikes, that's a good question to ask. My group did the check and got her out to talk, but I didn't know what to do, either. She reiterated that they were trespassing (then they had an argument about what trespassing meant because the Bloody Blades don't own the land, either) until the Sorcerer got bored and started slinging spells, starting the fight anyway.

I was at least going to have her reveal some information about Voz (tangentially why they're there, that their "employer" is paying them good money to keep people out, etc.) but they didn't let her talk that long! :P


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Curgyr wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Porridge wrote:

--Question: On p49, under the description of encounter C2, it mentions that the party can make one Diplomacy or Intimidation check to get the guard to call Dmiri out to speak with the PCs. But I can't find any further guidance about this in the AP. How is this conversation supposed to go?

.
Anybody got thoughts on this question? I am coming up on this moment myself and am not sure what to do yet. She seems fairly loyal to Voz and is expecting do gooders. Conflict seems somewhat inevitable, but I'm not sure why it would include the bit about attempting the single check against her subordinate.

Oh yikes, that's a good question to ask. My group did the check and got her out to talk, but I didn't know what to do, either. She reiterated that they were trespassing (then they had an argument about what trespassing meant because the Bloody Blades don't own the land, either) until the Sorcerer got bored and started slinging spells, starting the fight anyway.

I was at least going to have her reveal some information about Voz (tangentially why they're there, that their "employer" is paying them good money to keep people out, etc.) but they didn't let her talk that long! :P

That's part of what I'd like to try to avoid. I've already seen my players struggle to figure out what to say or ask when they found out the tunnel led to the Pickled Ear, trying various subtle tactics that didn't amount to anything because they were worried that any given employee of the Pickled Ear could be the bad guy necromancer. (Not entirely unreasonable, given their lack of information.) And that was with me having a pretty clear roadmap to follow. I'm concerned that without me having that roadmap, a conversation will go no where fast and feel like a waste of time.

It is a little hard to map, of course, because player creativity can come up with some stories you don't see coming. But I'd like to come up with something, at least figuring out how likely Dmiri is to sell out an employer. I lean against it, because she's lawful and it is hard to get work as a mercenary if you develop a reputation for betrayal. But then we are pretty much just left with a fight.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Githzilla wrote:
For those of you that have completed this book - how was the pace of leveling up? It looks pretty quick between Chapter 3 and 4 to go from 2nd to 5th.

I'm using milestone leveling since the AP makes it so convenient on the first page of each book. But since Age of Ashes is also a chance for me and the players to learn PF2, I've been tracking experience points in the background. Here is what I've found so far:

- The party hit level 2 right on pace, 1070 XP after the town hall, battlements (including Calmont) and the northern half of the first citadel level
- They hit level 3 after finishing the southern half of the first level and northern wing (Cinderclaws) of the vaults, 1040 XP.
- Level 4 was a bit off pace. I leveled them after Guardian's Way (including the initial caves & Voz) even though they were at only 840 XP, and as a result added a beefy tunnel encounter before they hit the last Goblinblood Caves map. Technically they should have hit level 4 after the encounter, but this is where milestone is nice because it felt more cinematic to do it after the Voz fight.
- Totaling up the possible XP for what's left (they are currently in the spider cave and should encounter Ralldar next session), they should hit level 5 right at the end.

Which is a long way of saying... it's been pretty smooth and well paced!

Now the major caveat here is that I've been adjusting encounters all along since we have a 5-person party and they're experienced tabletop roleplayers. They were breezing through early encounters, so I've been using Elite templates almost as a default and adding numbers (for example, 8 elite hunting spiders instead of 6 normal ones). The players say they have all really enjoyed the added challenge, even when two of them died fighting Voz (to be fair, Dmiri had fled into the caves so this made the encounter much more deadly).


MagicJMS wrote:


- Totaling up the possible XP for what's left (they are currently in the spider cave and should encounter Ralldar next session), they should hit level 5 right at the end.

As someone just one session ahead of you, I have to ask... How?

I added up everything after Voz until the very end of the book, and I'm only hitting about 750 xp. Adding to that the fact that my players avoided the spiders, as they hurried to defeat Ralldar and then Malarunk in the same session, and honestly aside from the "discovery" xp at the end of the module, they've only earned around maybe 300 xp?

I'm stuck because I think they're very, very ready to move on from Breachill at the end of this session at the latest, so I don't really have any ideas of random encounters (combat or otherwise) to give them at least three sessions between levels. I really hate just handing them a milestone level after a session or two, in large part because I strongly believe in learning your abilities a you go. Leveling too fast leaves everyone struggling to keep up with what they can do, in my experience.

Any ideas?


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You don't give XP for successfully avoiding a fight? I use milestone leveling so it doesn't matter for me, but if I did use XP I'd give them credit for avoiding a fight that wasn't necessary. Same thing for hazards. I see it as their objective being to overcome obstacles in their way, and not necessarily by force. Not giving XP for avoiding a fight or trap seems to punish clever or resourceful parties.


Fumarole wrote:
You don't give XP for successfully avoiding a fight? I use milestone leveling so it doesn't matter for me, but if I did use XP I'd give them credit for avoiding a fight that wasn't necessary. Same thing for hazards. I see it as their objective being to overcome obstacles in their way, and not necessarily by force. Not giving XP for avoiding a fight or trap seems to punish clever or resourceful parties.

Sorry, that maybe wasn't clear. I love to count non-fought battles in their favor. Even still, one low difficulty fight isn't going to make the difference. The problem here was more time, as they skirted it quickly.

I was just so stunned. We spent a whole session dealing with the Bloody Blades, another with just the Voz fight and the aftermath, and then in the next session they didn't pause for nothing at all while they conquered almost everything listed under level 4 in less than four hours.

Still doesn't change that I'm only finding 75% of the necessary xp to level in the book at all, let alone if you consider that hundreds of XP at the end is handed in some very arbitrarily large achievement dumps (180 xp for identifying the statues of six relatively common deities?).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Has anyone created a handout of the deed for the ownership of Hellknight Hill?
Does anyone have a suitable source I could use to make my own?


I echo the worries about not enough EXP. My group was pretty thorough, only missing Big Bumble and the Tixitog(not cleverly avoiding, just plainly not going there, so no EXP) and getting pretty much all sorts of optional/missable exp and doing every other combat. They have just defeated Malarunk and are at 462 EXP. This means that if they identify all 6 aiudaras(180) and defeat the Doorwarden(60) they will be at 702. The deed to the Citadel is another 160, which puts them at 862, just 138 shy of the level 5 goal. They also managed to save every civilian at the town hall, but didn't put out the fire. I'm not saying the adventure doesn't have EXP to reach level 5, because I may be missing a detail, but it appears that you have to play it pretty thoroughly and not miss anything.


Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
SandersonTavares wrote:
I'm not saying the adventure doesn't have EXP to reach level 5, because I may be missing a detail, but it appears that you have to play it pretty thoroughly and not miss anything.

I'm not surprised this is the case given that APs now have to contain enough content for 20 levels in the same number of pages. How about just giving just them the XP anyway? They're already missing out on treasure (magical armor and weapon from the tixitog lair), it seems harsh to penalize them more based on chance. Or just give them an encounter or two before starting book two if you don't want to partially use milestone leveling.


Fumarole wrote:
SandersonTavares wrote:
I'm not saying the adventure doesn't have EXP to reach level 5, because I may be missing a detail, but it appears that you have to play it pretty thoroughly and not miss anything.
I'm not surprised this is the case given that APs now have to contain enough content for 20 levels in the same number of pages. How about just giving just them the XP anyway? They're already missing out on treasure (magical armor and weapon from the tixitog lair), it seems harsh to penalize them more based on chance. Or just give them an encounter or two before starting book two if you don't want to partially use milestone leveling.

Yeah I am probably going to just give them the exp. On some occasions I love adding encounters but Hellknight Hill is pretty combat heavy so I'll just artificially increase the bonuses from the citadel deed and call it a day. Adding too many extra encounters is a hassle because we play pretty short sessions and an encounter that is there just for EXP is kinda meh. It doesn't bother me too much though, I just posted to warn less experienced GMs so as to help people better gauge expectations of advancement.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
SandersonTavares wrote:
Fumarole wrote:
SandersonTavares wrote:
I'm not saying the adventure doesn't have EXP to reach level 5, because I may be missing a detail, but it appears that you have to play it pretty thoroughly and not miss anything.
I'm not surprised this is the case given that APs now have to contain enough content for 20 levels in the same number of pages. How about just giving just them the XP anyway? They're already missing out on treasure (magical armor and weapon from the tixitog lair), it seems harsh to penalize them more based on chance. Or just give them an encounter or two before starting book two if you don't want to partially use milestone leveling.
Yeah I am probably going to just give them the exp. On some occasions I love adding encounters but Hellknight Hill is pretty combat heavy so I'll just artificially increase the bonuses from the citadel deed and call it a day. Adding too many extra encounters is a hassle because we play pretty short sessions and an encounter that is there just for EXP is kinda meh. It doesn't bother me too much though, I just posted to warn less experienced GMs so as to help people better gauge expectations of advancement.

What did they do with the warg pups? Dealing with the mom could be a moral encounter not a real combat one that gives them the exp needed.

Horizon Hunters

Size and Bears!

Hi, I am not sure if I am doing it wrong but a lot of areas seem too small for the creatures. For example, Big Bumble is a Bear, he is therefore Large. this makes him ten foot by ten foot. How did he get into his room, and how is he supposed to leave it as all the passages are five foot wide? I know an actual bear could do so with relative ease but this does not seem to be supported by the rules. Why are bears even large? Ten foot by ten foot is massive!


DomHeroEllis wrote:

Size and Bears!

Hi, I am not sure if I am doing it wrong but a lot of areas seem too small for the creatures. For example, Big Bumble is a Bear, he is therefore Large. this makes him ten foot by ten foot. How did he get into his room, and how is he supposed to leave it as all the passages are five foot wide? I know an actual bear could do so with relative ease but this does not seem to be supported by the rules.

In P1e, the squeezing rule covered this.

Quote:
Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When I look up squeezing in P2e, I get this.

Quote:

You contort yourself to squeeze through a space so small you can barely fit through. This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check.

Critical Success You squeeze through the tight space in 1 minute per 10 feet of squeezing.
Success You squeeze through in 1 minute per 5 feet.
Critical Failure You become stuck in the tight space. While you’re stuck, you can spend 1 minute attempting another Acrobatics check at the same DC. Any result on that check other than a critical failure causes you to become unstuck.
Sample Squeeze Tasks
Trained space barely fitting your shoulders
Master space barely fitting your head

At first glance, this looks to be a very different thing, but note the second half of the second sentence: "many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check."

So, it looks like a Large creature moving through a 5-foot corridor counts as moving through difficult terrain, though explicitly calling that out in the Difficult Terrain text would have been nice.

Horizon Hunters

Joana wrote:
DomHeroEllis wrote:

Size and Bears!

Hi, I am not sure if I am doing it wrong but a lot of areas seem too small for the creatures. For example, Big Bumble is a Bear, he is therefore Large. this makes him ten foot by ten foot. How did he get into his room, and how is he supposed to leave it as all the passages are five foot wide? I know an actual bear could do so with relative ease but this does not seem to be supported by the rules.

In P1e, the squeezing rule covered this.

Quote:
Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When I look up squeezing in P2e, I get this.

Quote:

You contort yourself to squeeze through a space so small you can barely fit through. This action is for exceptionally small spaces; many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through more quickly and without a check.

Critical Success You squeeze through the tight space in 1 minute per 10 feet of squeezing.
Success You squeeze through in 1 minute per 5 feet.
Critical Failure You become stuck in the tight space. While you’re stuck, you can spend 1 minute attempting another Acrobatics check at the same DC. Any result on that check other than a critical failure causes you to become unstuck.
Sample Squeeze Tasks
Trained space barely fitting your shoulders
Master space barely fitting your head

At first glance, this looks to be a very different thing, but note the second half of the second sentence: "many tight spaces are difficult terrain that you can move through...

Thanks, i'd read the squeezing bit too and missed that! I had just decided to treat it as difficult terrain for Big Bumble myself, so now I feel quite justified.


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So I've been running this AP adventure for a few weeks now, overall it is going well.

PCs have just cleaned up the main level of Citadel Altaerein, and returned Calmont to town to face justice. The Bumblebrasher tribe has instructed them where the secret door to the vault level can be found and they will be delving down there soon to liberate the Bumblebrasher's home.

One aspect I am having a little trouble wrapping my head around is the crypt section of the vaults. The undead that have risen there is a result of Voz tampering with things she should not have, which is fine, makes sense to me. But it appears as written, grave robbing is not something that would not have activated the necromatic ward, nor does it upset the risen undead guardians. In fact, as long as the PCs are wearing some kind of Hellknight regalia, they can loot to their heart's content, without danger from the undead hellknights.

Further, Alak seems, at worst, mildly put out by the concept of the PCs raiding the tombs of his order's esteemed dead. Only if they really start getting their full grave robbing on does he start to make a fuss.

I know the Order of the Nail abandoned the citadel, but I am still struggling a little bit with this concept that using a necromatic ritual to commune with the corpses is a desecration of the dead, but tossing their crypts looking for loot is not.

Anyone have any thoughts on this one? And for those that have already ran this part of the adventure any issues with suspension of disbelief?


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Magnus Arcanus wrote:

So I've been running this AP adventure for a few weeks now, overall it is going well.

PCs have just cleaned up the main level of Citadel Altaerein, and returned Calmont to town to face justice. The Bumblebrasher tribe has instructed them where the secret door to the vault level can be found and they will be delving down there soon to liberate the Bumblebrasher's home.

One aspect I am having a little trouble wrapping my head around is the crypt section of the vaults. The undead that have risen there is a result of Voz tampering with things she should not have, which is fine, makes sense to me. But it appears as written, grave robbing is not something that would not have activated the necromatic ward, nor does it upset the risen undead guardians. In fact, as long as the PCs are wearing some kind of Hellknight regalia, they can loot to their heart's content, without danger from the undead hellknights.

Further, Alak seems, at worst, mildly put out by the concept of the PCs raiding the tombs of his order's esteemed dead. Only if they really start getting their full grave robbing on does he start to make a fuss.

I know the Order of the Nail abandoned the citadel, but I am still struggling a little bit with this concept that using a necromatic ritual to commune with the corpses is a desecration of the dead, but tossing their crypts looking for loot is not.

Anyone have any thoughts on this one? And for those that have already ran this part of the adventure any issues with suspension of disbelief?

The magic ward is activated by necromantic magics, not general tampering. Even if that magic isn't much of a desecration, the ward can't tell the difference. The book says that this practice is outdated and no longer in favor with the Order of the Nail. Basically, the ward is bad, so they stopped using it. It's not that grave robbing isn't seen by the ward as desecration, its that the ward only activates when exposed to necromantic magic.

As for Alak, I think that just fits his character. He's a practical person who won't object to taking from the dead if it will help out the living. When it's done for no reason, he takes offense. Not necessarily archetypal Hellknight behavior, but it doesn't have to be. If you want to use Alak to communicate more typical Hellknight behavior to the party, I don't see the harm in having him take a harder stance against grave robbing. It never came up at my table, because my party didn't do it.


My party took the objects from the "main" crypt, and as for the magic weapons they took only two, and then seeing how Alak was not at ease with that, they put their own weapons there, closed the tombs and did not open another ones.
They met Alak early on, so, they build a friendship with him.


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Magnus Arcanus wrote:
Anyone have any thoughts on this one? And for those that have already ran this part of the adventure any issues with suspension of disbelief?

In my game I had Alak remain in town after helping the PCs on the main level, so he doesn't know about their looting of the crypts.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In my game, the characters met Alak early, but he never went into town the two times they did. Instead, he camped overnight nearby. They encountered him again in the lower level as written, and the PCs were very careful not to desecrate the bodies to the extent of checking that the removal of [redacted] would not be a desecration.
He hadn't had a chance to go far into the crypts. I had the awakened dead resting in their crypts and they didn't get up until a character approached. After the battle, he carefully laid the skeletal hellknight remains back into the crypts.
As a character he has been very enthusiastic of the stories about the goblins, seeing it as justification of the Order's desire to bring civilisation to the area. One character, has caefully taken the painting for selling knowing that Alak would be interested in it.


Apologies if this has been asked, but a lot of posts to go through :)
Currently playing Starfinder, but when that campaign is done my group is going to FINALLY switch to 2e, and going to be doing this, albeit, I have not yet purchased the mod, and so with that said...
I'd just also like to preface my question with, I 3D Print terrain for use in my encounters.
What sort of terrain should I be expecting to print? (so I can start preparing ahead of time) Dungeons? Caverns? graveyards? city/town streets?
thanks in advance


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In the first book, there is one city encounter, a series of above ground caste encounters, several underground dungeon encounters, an outdoor encounter with kinda treehouse things, and some natural dungeon encounters.


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Encounter locations in this book:

Town hall
Castle interior (partially crumbling)
Castle battlements
Castle underground vault
Ossuary
Small military outpost in the woods (tree stands, wooden shack)
Caves
Magic portals (x6)

Not necessary for combat but useful:
Bookshop
Tavern
Collapsed stairs (same style as castle & castle vault)
Secret doors (same style as castle interior and castle vault)
Flame effects (out of control fire & several bonfires)
Destroyed furniture (lots) & doors
Sarcophagi (x6)
A fort made of bunkbeds
Fungus patches
Spider webs (lots)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You can also check out the community created thread, several have shared their digital maps of the first 3 books.


My players finally encountered the gelatinous cube. It was almost a TPK so I wanted to warn any other DMS who could run this fight. I had 3 of my six member party in the cube at once. The 2d6 acid damage at the end of each turn in the cube really hurts for a level 2 character. The DC 20 fortitude saving throw to avoid paralysis is also most likely to be failed by most players.

I had to flex the rules and allow the fighter hacking at the cube from the outside to free her teammates (a slight corruption of the engulf rules)

The cube's AC is very low but is also immune to criticals. My players were very hesitant to go toe to toe with it since they saw how it could just engulf them for free. Because of this they were standing back and casting cantrips at it from a distance. It was harsh.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Flambe wrote:
My players finally encountered the gelatinous cube. It was almost a TPK so I wanted to warn any other DMS who could run this fight.

I also just ran this combat over the weekend and it too was very nearly a TPK. After the Soulbound Doll fight the party elected to take two hours patching themselves up, but because the NW and SE doorways were open they naturally got curious and split up to loot before getting their second round of Treat Wounds checks.

My party is well conditioned at this point to throw every object into Alak's arms to see if it awards XP, so two party members spotted the painting in the NW hall and immediately set about recovering it. Meanwhile the rogue and alchemist went into the armory and spotted a shiny new shortsword hanging "near" the wall and, as per the intent of the encounter, the rogue literally ran into the cube to initiate the fight. He ended up fully engulfed and paralyzed the entire combat. Fortitude 20 is a rough check for 2nd level PCs, and there's nothing any other PC can do to assist that won't also get them engulfed and paralyzed.

The ranger tried to pull him out but was instantly paralyzed, and then eventually engulfed also. That left a bard and an alchemist and Alak to whittle down 90hp before those 2d6 rolls could kill the rogue. The bard basically had to chain-soothe. If they didn't have Alak (or if Alak had failed his reflex save) it'd have been game over very quickly.

Maybe it's my fault for providing the description/existence of the shortsword before giving the rogue his opportunity to Search and potentially spot the cube before it was too late. He's usually pretty cautious when walking into rooms, and I perhaps unfairly lured him straight into the trap.


Flambe wrote:

My players finally encountered the gelatinous cube. It was almost a TPK so I wanted to warn any other DMS who could run this fight. I had 3 of my six member party in the cube at once. The 2d6 acid damage at the end of each turn in the cube really hurts for a level 2 character. The DC 20 fortitude saving throw to avoid paralysis is also most likely to be failed by most players.

I had to flex the rules and allow the fighter hacking at the cube from the outside to free her teammates (a slight corruption of the engulf rules)

The cube's AC is very low but is also immune to criticals. My players were very hesitant to go toe to toe with it since they saw how it could just engulf them for free. Because of this they were standing back and casting cantrips at it from a distance. It was harsh.

I was about to 'correct' you, but then I re-read the Gelatinous Cube stat block and found out that it's a Large creature. I had ran it as a Medium creature, which would only be able to engulf one creature at a time. Given how the fight went at my table, if I ran it properly I probably would have killed one of my PCs!

So I guess what I'm saying is that if anyone wants ideas for how to nerf the Cube, make it medium.


I killed one of my players and also was near a TPK. But I have to say, it is a good encounter, because it teaches the players to respect a new creature that they don´t know anything about it. At that point on the adventure they thought they were above death.

It´s true that is hard to avoid the "trap", so 1 of the players is going to be engulfed.

But is also true that the creature has tons of weakspots, like if you are at +45 feet, you are save from it(so very vulnerable to ranged atacks). He has 0 Ref and 10 AC, so you can do cheap tricks like triping it, and almost always you are going to hit it with your atacks. It has motion sense, so they could try to trick it standing still (hiding without cover).

Also there are tons of other posible helps in the dungeon, like the bear, Pibb and Zarf, Alak. They could even use it to atack the Charau-kas/Boggards or the skeletons.

I can assure you, if now I reapeat the fight with the knowleadge they have know, the encounter is going to be very easy for them, because they have learned new ways to deal with it.

They just need to learn that not every fight needs to be aproached the same way, and if they are not good enough, someone can be lost forever.


So, I started running this AP, and the group decided to investigate the bookstore before heading off to the citadel after the fire.

Searching to place, my wizard discovered the scrolls Voz left behind, which are 2nd level scrolls. The party is still 1st level.

My question is this...can he transcribe them into his spellbook before he's able to cast them? I know he could try to cast them from the scroll at 1st level (it'd be bit tougher), but I can see him wanting to add them first.

My thoughts are that he can, using the learning a spell DCs and costs, but needs more time to learn that last bit of the formula to be able to cast them.

Any guidance or direction is welcomed, as I am not finding the info I think I'm looking for....


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I know in past editions, you could copy a spell before you could cast it. (Did it all the time in Baldur's Gate.) I'm not sure it's spelled out explicitly in P2e that you can.

The Learn a Spell activity doesn't forbid it, however. He just has to spend the money and hit the DC.


Joana wrote:
The Learn a Spell activity doesn't forbid it, however. He just has to spend the money and hit the DC.

That's pretty much what I thought. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

Thank you!


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sir NotAppearingInThisFilm wrote:

I’m sorry - I’m still kind of confused on some matters of timing and motivation. So Voz has been checking out Alsetta’s Ring at the instruction of the Scarlet Triad for a few weeks now - presumably using the secret tunnel there, and then sneaking past the Bumblebrasher goblins inhabiting the level to the stairway down to the actual Ring chamber. So this goes on until the Cinderclaws reactivate Huntergate, collapsing the stairwell and basically starting the events of the whole book. At some point Voz uses the secret tunnel again to visit the Hall of Graves to find out about the Goblinblood Caves entrance - is she sneaking past the Cinderclaws trapped on this level? Is she working with them as fellow Scarlet Triad buddies? If so, why wouldn’t she just tell them about the secret tunnel so that they could get out? Or is she freaked out that they’re there and could potentially ruin everything, so she’s avoiding them?

I haven’t gotten book 2 yet, but are the Cinderclaws’ motivations for activating the gate explained there? Currently it seems like perhaps an accident, or an attempt by Malarunk to impress a superior - I’m just worried that if I go with either explanation, book 2 will contradict me & i’ll have to retcon or rework things. Hopefully I’ll have gotten book 2 before the party gets that far.

These all seem like really good questions to me that I never saw anyone else answer.


caps wrote:
Sir NotAppearingInThisFilm wrote:

I’m sorry - I’m still kind of confused on some matters of timing and motivation. So Voz has been checking out Alsetta’s Ring at the instruction of the Scarlet Triad for a few weeks now - presumably using the secret tunnel there, and then sneaking past the Bumblebrasher goblins inhabiting the level to the stairway down to the actual Ring chamber. So this goes on until the Cinderclaws reactivate Huntergate, collapsing the stairwell and basically starting the events of the whole book. At some point Voz uses the secret tunnel again to visit the Hall of Graves to find out about the Goblinblood Caves entrance - is she sneaking past the Cinderclaws trapped on this level? Is she working with them as fellow Scarlet Triad buddies? If so, why wouldn’t she just tell them about the secret tunnel so that they could get out? Or is she freaked out that they’re there and could potentially ruin everything, so she’s avoiding them?

I haven’t gotten book 2 yet, but are the Cinderclaws’ motivations for activating the gate explained there? Currently it seems like perhaps an accident, or an attempt by Malarunk to impress a superior - I’m just worried that if I go with either explanation, book 2 will contradict me & i’ll have to retcon or rework things. Hopefully I’ll have gotten book 2 before the party gets that far.

These all seem like really good questions to me that I never saw anyone else answer.

I'll add my thoughts. Fair warning, I've not been running the book particularly close to script at a number of points, so I might be mixing up calls I made vs. what the book suggested.

I don't think Voz and the Cinderclaws at all know of each other or each other's presence. Voz was hired by the Scarlet Triad locally to find the gate. The Cinderclaws were hired by the Triad in the Mwangi to, among other things, I think just secure the gate. The Triad, as far as I understand, want the gates to secure their interests, especially if they can control them enough to gain control of Hermea's gate. The Cinderclaws, however, somehow realized that the avatar of Dahak is tied to the gate, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that they tried to activate it.

When Voz uses the secret tunnel, she doesn't have to go anywhere near the Cinderclaw cultists. Literally she walks in, activates her ritual, and that wakes up the undead. With the answer she needs, however, she leaves through the tunnel again and finds Guardian's Way from the outside. The cultists can't go that way either way, since there is now a significant faction of angry undead Hellknights between them. Once the PCs clear the rubble, that's the first way that the cultists have to get out. Of course they run quickly into the meat grinder that is the player party, so sucks to be them...

The Cinderclaws are written as fanatical and pretty bungling. They have gained a number of great resources from the Triad in exchange for their cursed gold, and they use the bulk of those poorly. Belmazog is a fanatic, not a tactician. So yeah, I played Malarunk as excessively convinced he can step into the gate and wake Dahak (which he does...), but then he ends up on the wrong side of it. Along with Renali, who snuck in there (as well as a now-dead Magaambyan druid I wrote in as the reason there are grauladons/a cavein there--I felt it needed another player involved to explain why it went so badly for the cultists).


My players just finished Hellknight Hill and I am checking the rules to repair and upgrade the Citadel from Cult of Cinders.

I was wondering if someone made any kind of resource to keep track of everything on the keep. Which upgrades where made, NPCs hired and all that kind of stuff.

Also I am a bit worried about the usefulness of the citadel. With what I read on the second book the whole system looks more like a sink of money and resources than something actually helpful. Am I missing something? It changes in later books?


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Beefing up the citadel's defenses will help in book 6.


Sporkedup wrote:


I'll add my thoughts. Fair warning, I've not been running the book particularly close to script at a number of points, so I might be mixing up calls I made vs. what the book suggested.

I don't think Voz and the Cinderclaws at all know of each other or each other's presence. Voz was hired by the Scarlet Triad locally to find the gate. The Cinderclaws were hired by the Triad in the Mwangi to, among other things, I think just secure the gate. The Triad, as far as I understand, want the gates to secure their interests, especially if they can control them...

Hmmm, just some clarifications from someone who is running the books close to script.

There is no way the Cinderclaws and Voz would know of each one presence.

The collapse on the Courtyard made the Vaults inacessible except for two ways: The secret outside entrance that the BumbleBrashers know about and the entrance that Voz used initially to made that ritual (The Pickeled Ear)

Voz found out about some other entrance for the Alseta's Ring and went for it and it's on the way trought the tunnels (in Guardian's Way).

As for the Cinderclaws due to the collapse they are trapped in Alseta´s Ring and having no way out


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Yeah, undead separated them on one level, spiders/barghest on the next. They never had a chance to run into each other.

Grand Archive

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Maskado wrote:

My players just finished Hellknight Hill and I am checking the rules to repair and upgrade the Citadel from Cult of Cinders.

I was wondering if someone made any kind of resource to keep track of everything on the keep. Which upgrades where made, NPCs hired and all that kind of stuff.

Also I am a bit worried about the usefulness of the citadel. With what I read on the second book the whole system looks more like a sink of money and resources than something actually helpful. Am I missing something? It changes in later books?

I just finished doing one for my group. I don't know if it would work for you, but it could at the very least be a starting point.

My post on Community Created Content thread


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Demonknight wrote:
Sporkedup wrote:


I'll add my thoughts. Fair warning, I've not been running the book particularly close to script at a number of points, so I might be mixing up calls I made vs. what the book suggested.

I don't think Voz and the Cinderclaws at all know of each other or each other's presence. Voz was hired by the Scarlet Triad locally to find the gate. The Cinderclaws were hired by the Triad in the Mwangi to, among other things, I think just secure the gate. The Triad, as far as I understand, want the gates to secure their interests, especially if they can control them...

Hmmm, just some clarifications from someone who is running the books close to script.

There is no way the Cinderclaws and Voz would know of each one presence

As written, I agree.

I am modifying the first book pretty heavily. I needed to fast-track it since my players made their way here from Etran's Folly after completing FoP and I have them at level 5. I'm trying to get them synced up with expected levels for Age of Ashes by the end of book 2.

I decided I wanted to modify with a few goals in mind:
- emphasize the Stepford Wives aspect of Breachill (relatively minor point so far)
- add some "regulars" to the town. Basically the local heroes that take the jobs too tough for any new adventurers and fill in whenever there are no out-of-towners to do the job (my PCs never meet them; see below). They were working on clearing out the Citadel and were also getting suspicious of Voz. I got this idea from someone else in this thread (and I also saw it on Reddit; probably the same person), although I modified and simplified it.
- cut the huge delay. At the call for heroes, Warbal has run all the way from the citadel to ask for immediate and urgent help (no 4 weeks of waiting here). On the way she encountered Voz slaughtering "the regulars" and manages to tell the council that much BEFORE...
- ... Voz hits Warbal with an acid arrow and calls her a filthy rat. One of my PCs managed to hit her, but then summoned a couple of living wildfires and a couple of fire mephits* and got out of there. I'm trying to play her up a little more as a Vader/Strahd villain that they frequently interact with and can't quite take on just yet, so I have her as a much more powerful necromancer, which means...
- ... Breachill has an undead problem, although they are only just now realizing it. The party encountered some zombies on the road from Etran's Folly, and everyone in town thought they were a little crazy "there's no undead around here, haha"

So I'm planning to have a lot more undead in the citadel; Alak will probably be cornered by some of them instead of some fiends. He may or may not have encountered "the regulars" since he only recently arrived. However, I'm not sure how to tie in the cultists and the Anadi woman; I'm leaning towards cutting the whole Guardian's Way/Goblinblood Caves portion out altogether. It looks pretty cool (maybe better than the Citadel material) but it doesn't fit my time constraints and I don't think as powerful a Necromancer as I am making Voz needs any mercenaries. I'm thinking it is probably Voz's undead, rather than collapsed stairwells, that are keeping the cultists trapped in the basement.

I had also been playing with Voz and Malarunk working together a little. I think I've talked myself out of that.

My players have dealt with the fire in city hall and made their way to the citadel, but we stopped there. I have ~6 weeks until our next session. Any suggestions? Would this be a better discussion for another thread?

*The PCs are level 5. A single mephit wasn't going to cut it. I handwaved the mechanics "story over mechanics blah blah blah." Not actually sure how I feel about the sentiment but I'm trying it. If Calmont could bungle his way through a special NPC-only parchment to summon a single fire mephit, Voz could find a more powerful single-use item.


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Maybe have voz/triad controlling the fort and working on fixing the gate. Since they have the key and Voz could provide some help on the repairs. They would expect more cultist on the other side, though it's just elves. Possible have the party discover the hidden way in that goes past the barghest and annadi allowing the party to bypass most of the defenses. Level 5 is late book 2. So maybe have the elves make great headway and destroyed most of the pillars before the party gets there. with the exception of the mine. That would catch the party up.


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I'm running Age of Ashes now and I wasn't fond of how the story gets from the town hall fire to the citadel. The townsfolk just blatantly tell the PC's "It was Calmont, he went thataway!" which isn't terribly fun or interesting. I suspect the writers had a better connection, but had to cut it due to page length or time constraints.

What I'm doing instead is letting the PC's solve the mystery of who started the fire. I'll let them investigate Breachill (added bonus of being able to introduce NPC's like Vox earlier) and find clues that will lead them to the Citadel and Calmont. I'm also reworking Calmont to be an orphan of the Goblinblood Wars who is angry at the town for reaching out to the Bumblebrashers. The DC's to get these clues won't be super high, but it'll make the players feel like they earned it instead of just being spoon-fed the next part of the adventure.

The Clues:

-Fire mephits are fire elemental and must be summoned via conjuring magic (gained by identifying what fire mephits are)

-2 fire mephits were summoned in the town hall (door and window), both publicly accessible areas (gained through observation and/or an Wis check)

-Who was/wasn't in the meeting room (gained through observation and/or an Int check)

-Witness saw a small, cloaked figure that looked like a goblin leaving town heading northeast (Calmont trying to frame the goblins, gained by gathering info with Diplomacy or similar check)

-Found goblin mask in Breach Creak (discarded by Calmont after the fire and trying to frame the Bumblebrashers, gained by Perception looking around the creek)

-Missing scrolls from Reliant Book Company (Calmont stole the scroll to summon the fire mephits

-Missing alchemist's fire from Tuskhead Stonework (I had Calmont use alchemist's fire in addition to the mephits, gained via gather info check)

-Calmont (goblin-hating halfling) missing from town (gained via gather info or talking to Voz)

I also going to rework Calmont's confrontation with the PCs and Bumblebrashers. Calmont is just here to kill the Bumblebrashers himself, but does drop the name "Alseta's Ring" which he knows Voz is interested in. Calmont doesn't know much about Alseta's Ring beyond the name and its an elf thing. He suspects its a magical ring you wear on your finger, not a ring of magic portals. If the PC's look into it back in Breachill they'll find that Voz has left town, but will have left some books out talking about the elf's ability to travel great distances through magic gates.


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So one danger to be aware of is that if you make it a mystery out the gate your players might discover Voz's stuff early, and potentially find stuff to let them skip an entire chapter or two.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
So one danger to be aware of is that if you make it a mystery out the gate your players might discover Voz's stuff early, and potentially find stuff to let them skip an entire chapter or two.

I think that's why it's important to make Voz incredibly compliant and forthcoming about her inventory ledger and missing scroll, and play her off as a generically good NPC. If she's up front about the missing scroll it makes the PCs less likely to rummage through her personal belongings, which at that point in the script is the only risk of skipping progression. It also makes the payoff later when they realize the deception that much sweeter.

Emphasizing the fact that there's an ongoing investigation also helps support why Voz would vacate the store with such reckless haste, leaving her notes askew everywhere and a hidden cache of scrolls in her closet.

In my game the PCs never made a pitstop at the bookstore before running up to the Hill chasing Calmont. But they also lost the combat with Calmont, and he managed to hold a dying PC hostage long enough to escape. I'm playing it that he, perhaps foolishly, ran back to the bookstore to "restock" on whatever scrolls he could scavenge, and he's the reason the store is disheveled and Voz's critical notes are on top of the mess. So Calmont discovered the Guardian's Way note and went there straight away instead of the crypts. He's now a freshly animated skeleton in Voz's menagerie, with half of his rotting face still clinging onto the skull.


I extended out that whole chunk of the game, and Voz was around through a lot of it (my players aren't big dungeon crawlers, so I had to find other ways to entertain). I made her helpful and useful as they were trying to research the history of Altaerein and everything.

Turns out that made her their favorite person in the whole city. Oops.


You can always make someone else the bad guy, if you're loath to disincentivize your players from investing in relationships with NPCs. Maybe Calmont is the Triad's local contact after all, or Voz's research is sincerely academic in nature and someone else entirely is holed up at Guardians' Way. (Assuming you haven't already advanced past that point, of course.)

I had a PC go out of his way to make friends with an NPC in Second Darkness who was scripted to attack the party at a later date. Clearly, the guy you think is your friend who later betrays you is a classic trope, but Second Darkness has untrustworthy NPCs in spades and I didn't want my players to assume everyone they meet is always out to get them. So I made up another NPC to attack them when the time came and let the party have their friendly NPC. Statblocks are fungible, after all; just change the name and description.


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Sporkedup wrote:

I extended out that whole chunk of the game, and Voz was around through a lot of it (my players aren't big dungeon crawlers, so I had to find other ways to entertain). I made her helpful and useful as they were trying to research the history of Altaerein and everything.

Turns out that made her their favorite person in the whole city. Oops.

To me this isn't bad; this is fantastic. Hopefully they connect with other NPCs also and don't think that all NPCs they like turn out to be villains. But this is a great plot twist.


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My group of 5-7 are having a blast with Hellknight Hill as we enter the second month of the campaign. Last week they narrowly avoided a TPK in the north wing of the Altaerien vaults, and loved every minute of it. We're playing in Fantasy Grounds.

Some things I'm doing differently:

I didn't like the layout for Citadel Altaerien so I made my own in Dungeon painter. I'll see if I can share them here. Ended up being 4 levels in total, a little more castle-y, with generally larger rooms and few more rooms than the book has. Mostly same encounters though some might be in some different places. Overall worked pretty well.

Instead of the Bumblebrashers telling the party the secret passage to the Vaults, I hid the entrance in the castle for the players to find. Thanks to a hidden door the Bumblebrasher's don't know the way. Took them about 10 minutes, makes for a good simple puzzle. I added a small map extending the passage that begins the vaults to make it architecturally consistent with the rest of the citadel.

The stairs in the Vaults didn't suit the new citadel design and I wanted the Bumblebrashers to be totally ignorant of area D. So the destroyed stairs only lead down and had been hidden behind a stone wall, the work of the hellknights.

I like Alak as a character but found him to be an unbalancing force for the party, especially at first level. I had him meet the characters on the way up to the citadel. I made it so the only thing he was retrieving was the letter, which was found along with the deed in a hidden part of the Lictor's desk. The party took a break from the crawl to see to the deed in town, and so he says his goodbyes then.

In general I've been beefing up the encounters a little bit, especially when I'm concerned the larger number of players scuttles the action economy. The Grauladon was the only one to really disappoint me, didn't last long enough into the second round to use its body slam ability, if I recall this was the result of OP Alak rolling too well.

Looking forward to what comes next now that we're at the half way point of this book!


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LeftyTheBard wrote:

New to Forums new to 2e, 5e convert!

In general I've been beefing up the encounters a little bit, especially when I'm concerned the larger number of players scuttles the action economy. The Grauladon was the only one to really disappoint me, didn't last long enough into the second round to use its body slam ability, if I recall this was the...

Welcome! Sounds like a fun game!

I will caution you worrying about action economy all that much. Yes, if you've got more than 4 players, beef things up. But the level system really makes a lot of 5e's necessary evils look a bit outmoded sometimes. A party of 4 against a +3 enemy can get absolutely shredded, even with 4x the number of actions per round. You'll see as you start to get nearer the end of the module when fights like Ralldar happen, though I'm sure you'll need to add some mooks to that fight to balance it for 5+ players.


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If you do share there is a community created forum you can put it in.


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So I wanted to share my experiences with running this adventure thus far. Overall its been enjoyable, but my players finally hit the buzzsaw that is PF2 when fighting higher level bad guys, and it was a TPK during the fight with Voz. One of the PCs in question was taken out in one shot by Voz on a crit failure vs Vampiric Touch, and this PC was at full hit points.

The players have all agreed they want to keep playing with new characters and more or less pick up where we left off. I am tossing around a lot of ideas for hooks. A few aspects I want to incorporate are:

- The game world is not going to wait for the PCs. In this instance, Voz has accomplished her goal of finding Alsata's Ring

- She of course would also find the trapped Cinderclaws. I am thinking she is able to negotiate enough with Malarunk, with promises that she can fix the portal

- With the portal restored, the Cinderclaws are able to send reinforcements through the gate and become a major threat to Breachill, perhaps even launching a major attack that does **significant** damage before they are force to retreat back to the Hellknight keep

I would welcome any ideas here, including the rejection of all of the above!

Thanks!


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Magnus Arcanus wrote:
- With the portal restored, the Cinderclaws are able to send reinforcements through the gate and become a major threat to Breachill, perhaps even launching a major attack that does **significant** damage before they are force to retreat back to the Hellknight keep

I'd have to look at the book again, because I can't remember exactly what the Cinderclaws actual *goal* was in going through the portal. Would this be consistent with their goals?

Otherwise, very cool ideas to keep the game world moving while the new party forms up.

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