Advice for a Kinetisist

[J_Eilonwy]

I am playing a new(ish) PC (Human Hydrokinetisit) I rolled really high (and DM is allowing) Stats of:
Str 10
Dex 17 (up to 20 at lvl 12)
Con 18 (human to 20)
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 12

I started with Cold Blast, Kinetic Blade, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus (KBs).
Kinetic Healer at lvl 2 (our party doesn't have a cleric).
At lvl 7 I took Air Blast for flying at lvl 9 and Blizzard Blast (chilling infusion and eventually cloud).
I also took Kinetic Whip for reach and AoOs (and to help our Rouge)

Here is my question: I am lvl 12 now and looking forward expanded element at lvl 15. What element would you all advise?
I have been looking at Earth for the DR/Adamantine or Water for Ice Infusion (mostly RP if I'm honest), is there a better option that I am missing?

I mostly off-tank and heal in combat (wands/healer) but I currently can do as much or more damage as our fighter and rouge if I roll well and they aren't res to Blizzard Blast.

Feats: WeapFinesse, WeapFocus(KB), MedArmor, HevArmor, Toughness, Extra Wild Talent, Kinetic Training
Infusions: Blade, ExRange, Whip, Entangling, and Wall. (chilling next lvl)
Utility: Air Cushion, Wings of Air, Kinetic Healer, Basic Hydro, Slick, Veil of Mists, Clerity

[GeneticDrift]

Sounds like you don’t need advice!

I have a kineticist with Kinetic form which makes you large/huge, increasing your reach. You might want the feat combat reflexes to run with a build like that.

Expanded element wise, aether is great if you need to funnel burn somewhere and telekinesis is fun. Earth is great too, especially with its magnetic blast.

[Val'bryn2]

Just remember you don't automatically get the elemental defense of the expanded element, you need to choose a particular ability to get it.

[J_Eilonwy]

Val'bryn2 wrote:

Just remember you don't automatically get the elemental defense of the expanded element, you need to choose a particular ability to get it.

Ye, thanks. But is DR10/Adamantine (at lvl 20) notably better than say Force wall or would sandblast???(its really late here I hope that is correct) give me an advantage over Blizzard Blast to make it worth it or should I stick with water (or aether as the the above, I hadn't considered that... force wall and "mage hand" be better)?

[J_Eilonwy]

GeneticDrift wrote:

Sounds like you don’t need advice!

I have a kineticist with Kinetic form which makes you large/huge, increasing your reach. You might want the feat combat reflexes to run with a build like that.

Expanded element wise, aether is great if you need to funnel burn somewhere and telekinesis is fun. Earth is great too, especially with its magnetic blast.

Thank you... It is my first Kinetisist but I have played PF and DnD for about 15 years.

In your opinion, would it be better to get the better CompBlast and Defense of Earth or the versatility of Aether (I have to admit, I hadn't even considered aether, but I can see some advantages)... How does basic telekinesis/force ward stack up against Flesh of Stone/Sandstorm Blast?

Are any of the Aether Utilities or Infusions worth it at lvl 15?

EDIT: also, does Kinetic Form stack with whip? if so that would be 15foot reach correct??
Would that not allow me to fly forward and threaten a 30foot circle as "flanking" with whip for the rouge and fighter to follow??
Borderline OP... and awesome.

[GeneticDrift]

My aether kineticist used quickened force blast w/ride the blast to get into position. Then kinetic whip full attack. I believe whip reach stacks with the bonus reach from size.

Flanking rules don't change so if you are airborne the flanking buddy would need to be below the target.

Force Ward was amazing in my experience as it counts attacks that don't breach the temp hp as a miss for rider effects.

Disentigrateing infusion was fun for making doorways when dealing with fortified positions.

Foe throw was fun for bonking enemies together. Targeting minions with low saves to throw at their boss.

If you don't expand gaining an extra water/universal talent is useful, So I won't say it is needed.

[Temperans]

I would say Earth is for defenses and guaranteed damage.

While Aether is for kind of rules bending and utility.

[McDaygo]

Air for deflection

[Egil Firehair]

Suffocate can be a lot of fun.

Please note that despite Kinetic Blade & Whip being melee attacks, if you are using the Cold attack, then that's an energy/touch attack and is blocked by Spell Resistance (not Damage Resistance). And I don't see any Spell Penetration feats on your list...

[Syries]

With those stats chances are unless you encounter particularly high AC, or vs a target with vulnerability to cold, you should be using composite or physical basic blasts exclusively. With elemental overflow +4 and a size bonus to dex of +2 or +4, you're ability to hit the target will be pretty solid even against normal AC. So spell penetration can totally be optional.

[J_Eilonwy]

Egil Firehair wrote:

Suffocate can be a lot of fun.

Please note that despite Kinetic Blade & Whip being melee attacks, if you are using the Cold attack, then that's an energy/touch attack and is blocked by Spell Resistance (not Damage Resistance). And I don't see any Spell Penetration feats on your list...

Yes, thats the main reason I started with cold instead of water. I used that till my BAB and dex was good enough to hit with Blizzard.

I was looking at Suffocate as well but I took air so I shouldn't need any extra elements to use it.

I don't use cold very much anymore so I hadn't felt the need to take spell penetration; should I? Blizzard is a physical composite blast.

[J_Eilonwy]

Syries wrote:

With those stats chances are unless you encounter particularly high AC, or vs a target with vulnerability to cold, you should be using composite or physical basic blasts exclusively. With elemental overflow +4 and a size bonus to dex of +2 or +4, you're ability to hit the target will be pretty solid even against normal AC. So spell penetration can totally be optional.

So, wait on chilling infusion and get Kinetic Form instead?? It doesn't add damage (if I am reading it correctly) just reach (15foot with whip, 20foot if I take burn?)... Is that worth the extra wild talent?

Kinetic Form

Element(s) universal; Type utility (Sp); Level 5; Burn 1

You are able to suspend your body in a large mass of elemental matter. Until the next time your burn is removed, you can change your size to Large or shift back to your original size as a standard action. This doesn’t change your ability scores in any way. At 16th level, you can accept 1 additional point of burn to instead change your size to Huge. You cannot use kinetic form to decrease your size.

RAW it doesn't seem to give me a dex bonus... where is that coming from?

[J_Eilonwy]

GeneticDrift wrote:

My aether kineticist used quickened force blast w/ride the blast to get into position. Then kinetic whip full attack. I believe whip reach stacks with the bonus reach from size.

Flanking rules don't change so if you are airborne the flanking buddy would need to be below the target.

Force Ward was amazing in my experience as it counts attacks that don't breach the temp hp as a miss for rider effects.

Disentigrateing infusion was fun for making doorways when dealing with fortified positions.

Foe throw was fun for bonking enemies together. Targeting minions with low saves to throw at their boss.

If you don't expand gaining an extra water/universal talent is useful, So I won't say it is needed.

Well hello, I had sort of written aether off... but damn. Those are some good abilities. Auto-miss if it doesn't deal enough damage and I can take basic telekinesis.

Ok... that save for Disintegrating is a bummer though. I cannot tell, is the DC for the Fort save based on my CON? So 10+5+.5 lvl?? 21 Currently... is that correct? That's not bad... I can deal with that.

[Syries]

Elemental Overflow gives you size bonuses to your physical scores based on how much burn you have. At 12th level it's +4 to one physical stat (str dex con) and +2 to the other two.

[Firebug]

If you are not spending your swift action (its been a while since I've played my Kineticist), Bolstered Resilience can double your DR(to a max of 20) against one attack each round. Its not much, but 10 damage a round stacks up pretty quickly for the cost of a single feat.

[Temperans]

Bolstered Resilience is 1 per day, unless you have a way to remove fatigue consistently. Ex: A Cord of Stubborn Resolve, which deals 1d6 nonlethal damage instead of getting fatigued; This is actually a great item for a Kineticist given it also gives a boost to Con (and can be upgraded in a home game).

Btw 1d6 nonlethal damage every round is kind of tough considering Kineticist already has reduced HP from burn.

[Firebug]

1d6 nonlethal(that can be healed since its not burn) vs taking 10 more lethal damage though?

I missed that Bolstered Resilience fatigued, though. Doesn't look like it received errata, so I must have just misremembered(or had that cord).

[GeneticDrift]

DC 10+1/2 lvl + stat. Unless stated otherwise infusion save stats are:
Form infusion saves are dexterity based saves.

Substance infusions are constitution based saves.

Kinetic form increases your reach but doesn't adjust damage at all. I find it worth it's 1 burn per day. But if you have multiple defense talents you may want burn to go elsewhere.

Elemental overflow is what improves your stats and other bonuses.

[Doompatrol]

I,m curious as to why you took armour feats, as a high dex character you would have equivalent armour wearing light armour as well as avoiding the penalty to skills. With the bonus from overflow and a dex item you should have very high ac. If you can see about retraining them for the extra wild talent feats.

Kinetic form is terrible, point of burn, lower ac, take up more squares so a bigger target and harder to move around, all for extra reach.

If you don't have a caster casting haste, then boots of speed are essential. That extra attack and accuracy from haste will massively increase your damage.

You should have 2 points in your buffer at 12, save them for when you can get a full attack on big threats. If you empower the kinetic blade/whip while hasted thats almost as much damage as 3 empowered kinetic blasts in one turn.

Take the extra wild talent feat for kinetic whispers and get a familiar that offers +4 initiative. Give it the sage archetype and you've suddenly got a genius in your head that can make all sorts of knowledge skills. You can also summon an immortal scout. All this for one feat. Improved initiative is considered one of the best general feats, this is fantastic.

As for that 3rd element, I would recommend earth. You will get the sand composite which means no longer needed to worry about cold resistance or immunity, get DR as you say as well as some strong utility in picking up burrow.

[J_Eilonwy]

Doompatrol wrote:

I,m curious as to why you took armour feats, as a high dex character you would have equivalent armour wearing light armour as well as avoiding the penalty to skills. With the bonus from overflow and a dex item you should have very high ac. If you can see about retraining them for the extra wild talent feats.

Kinetic form is terrible, point of burn, lower ac, take up more squares so a bigger target and harder to move around, all for extra reach.

If you don't have a caster casting haste, then boots of speed are essential. That extra attack and accuracy from haste will massively increase your damage.

You should have 2 points in your buffer at 12, save them for when you can get a full attack on big threats. If you empower the kinetic blade/whip while hasted thats almost as much damage as 3 empowered kinetic blasts in one turn.

Take the extra wild talent feat for kinetic whispers and get a familiar that offers +4 initiative. Give it the sage archetype and you've suddenly got a genius in your head that can make all sorts of knowledge skills. You can also summon an immortal scout. All this for one feat. Improved initiative is considered one of the best general feats, this is fantastic.

As for that 3rd element, I would recommend earth. You will get the sand composite which means no longer needed to worry about cold resistance or immunity, get DR as you say as well as some strong utility in picking up burrow.

I took armor feats cause our GM gave us(me) a plus 5 Mithral Plate that gives +30 move speed and +4 to strength; thats 40 ac including water's shield and ring/neck (its called Onslaught). It's only one less point of DEX than a Chain Shirt would give. Only thing that would be better AC that I know of is Celestial Armor, and we don't have one.

Our rouge handles most skills we need (though the -3 penalty is pretty negligible for me).

I have Clerety so Haste is taken care of (if needed).

I think I will be going earth after hearing everyone here. Thanks.

How would I make a Animal Familiar a Sage? That doesn't ring any bells. My initiative is already pretty good (+5 without any burn or spells) is it worth two feats for a Familiar/Sage instead of Improved Initiative?

[Syries]

You get the familiar though the Kinetic Whispers wild talent; With high Dex you can certainly go all out and get a hare for a +4 to init but I'd actually recommend a hedgehog for the +2 will saves; it's your only poor save so shoring it up is a great option IMO.

As for Sage, you can pick a regular familiar archetype (except for figment, I think- check Ultimate Wilderness) for your kinetic whispers, and Sage is a great one since your Int isn't phenomenal. Your sage can roll knowledge checks for you and let you know what they know.

[Temperans]

Stage 1 kinetic whispers is basicly an evolutionless figment familiar.

[Doompatrol]

Temperans wrote:

Stage 1 kinetic whispers is basicly an evolutionless figment familiar.

One very important difference, if the kinetic whispers familiar gets destroyed you can just summon it again making it one of the best scouts in the game.

You send it ahead and when you stop concentrating it pops back into your head and let's you know everything its seen.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

I would miss kinetic form

Do you think the DR would come in handy? I always think it depends mostly on playstyle as to how much value you get.

Force ward is a nice option in almost all cases.

I think the kinetic whisper sage hedgehog is great idea though.

Oh combat reflexes seems like an obvious win.

[Xelaaredn]

Uh... not to be a wet blanket here, but you couldn't get Wings of Air at 9th level.

Utility talents are gotten on even levels, first and foremost, and the earliest you could pick up Wings of Air as a secondary element would be 10th assuming you also decided to spend your 8th level utility to pick up Air's Leap or Air's Cushion.

I realize this isn't the point of this thread, so ignore me if you want I suppose.

[J_Eilonwy]

Xelaaredn wrote:

Uh... not to be a wet blanket here, but you couldn't get Wings of Air at 9th level.

Utility talents are gotten on even levels, first and foremost, and the earliest you could pick up Wings of Air as a secondary element would be 10th assuming you also decided to spend your 8th level utility to pick up Air's Leap or Air's Cushion.

I realize this isn't the point of this thread, so ignore me if you want I suppose.

You are normally correct... but, I picked up wild talent "Air Cushion" at 8th and used my 5th (9th lvl) feat for "Extra Wild Talent" (wings of air).

Also at lvl 7 I took "Kinetic Training" feat -> http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/kineticist-feats#toc36
to gain +4 to lvl for secondary element wild talents cancelling out the -4 from expanded element (Air).

EDIT: if this is not the way those feats work please let me (and my GM) know as that is the way we read them.

[J_Eilonwy]

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I would miss kinetic form

Do you think the DR would come in handy? I always think it depends mostly on playstyle as to how much value you get.

Force ward is a nice option in almost all cases.

I think the kinetic whisper sage hedgehog is great idea though.

Oh combat reflexes seems like an obvious win.

I do like the DR as I do a lot of tanking (we have a fighter, a mage, and a rogue in my group) shift earth also would help in several situations I can imagine.

Kinetic Form does not appeal to me currently, but I was weighing everyone's opinions.

Combat Reflexes is a feat I intend to get ASAP (probably lvl 13). That feat looks amazing with the way I play the build. I had hoped to get it earlier but took HVArmor to use an item our GM gave me... I mentioned it above but just in case you missed it I have a +5Mithal Full Plate that give +4STR and +30 move speed ("Onslaught"... out of a dragon hoard).

[Xelaaredn]

J_Eilonwy wrote:

You are normally correct... but, I picked up wild talent "Air Cushion" at 8th and used my 5th (9th lvl) feat for "Extra Wild Talent" (wings of air).
Also at lvl 7 I took "Kinetic Training" feat -> http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/kineticist-feats#toc36
to gain +4 to lvl for secondary element wild talents cancelling out the -4 from expanded element (Air).

EDIT: if this is not the way those feats work please let me (and my GM) know as that is the way we read them.

It isn't, on either. Kinetic Training is more for if you multiclassed. It only allows you to take things you normally can for a kineticist 4 levels higher (up to your total character level), which if you are full kineticist does nothing for you and never will. It also doesn't alter the limitation imposed by Expanded Element, aside from that, it is 3rd party. I'm assuming you and your GM know and are cool with that.

That one aside, Extra Wild Talent let's you pick one that is 2 levels lower than what you can at that level. Which at 9th is normally level 4 talents, meaning you can take a 1st or 2nd level talent only with that feat.

Hopefully that clears that up for you guys.

For the sake of trying to offer advice though... link or spoiler your current stats/build. It is usually best to know what we are working with fully. Also, if it is a yes on 3rd party, I'm assuming at least N Jolly's stuff is on the table if you were pulling from spheres of power.

[Xelaaredn]

By that I meant a level by level breakdown, but just looking at your first post it seems you are missing a utility talent if you used a feat to pick one up.

That said, as a tentative answer to your original question, I would also have to agree on picking up one of the elements that allows for multiple damage type options. Personally I prefer earth over aether myself.

That said... are you only looking at 1st party elements?

Also, to save a bit of time for you guys, word of god?

N Jolly on Kinetic Training:

Luthorne wrote:
Is the Kinetic Training feat meant to offset the penalty for expanded element wild talent selection, or is the intent for it to only apply to multiclassing?

N Jolly wrote:
The original intent was for multiclassing, I actually didn't think of it in regards to a single classed character. I think I'd probably alter the text to make it so that you can select talents 1 level lower than your highest if I was going to do something like that, but the way I intended it was only for multiclassing. I'd make a feat like that, but Mort's got something similar in the KT and I'd rather not repeat it.

[J_Eilonwy]

Xelaaredn wrote:

By that I meant a level by level breakdown, but just looking at your first post it seems you are missing a utility talent if you used a feat to pick one up.

That said, as a tentative answer to your original question, I would also have to agree on picking up one of the elements that allows for multiple damage type options. Personally I prefer earth over aether myself.

That said... are you only looking at 1st party elements?

Also, to save a bit of time for you guys, word of god?

** spoiler omitted **

Thanks for clearing that up. No idea how we missed that as we both read N Jolly's guide prior to starting this campaign.

I'll ask my GM if they want me to change those lvls to reflect the above.

We are including 3rd party, but I personally was leaning towards earth as "shift earth", "body of stone" and "Sandstorm Blast" are very appealing to me given the role I take in our party. Mostly, just asking if I was missing something obvious in another element.

[J_Eilonwy]

Xelaaredn wrote:

J_Eilonwy wrote:

You are normally correct... but, I picked up wild talent "Air Cushion" at 8th and used my 5th (9th lvl) feat for "Extra Wild Talent" (wings of air).
Also at lvl 7 I took "Kinetic Training" feat -> http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/kineticist-feats#toc36
to gain +4 to lvl for secondary element wild talents cancelling out the -4 from expanded element (Air).

EDIT: if this is not the way those feats work please let me (and my GM) know as that is the way we read them.

It isn't, on either. Kinetic Training is more for if you multiclassed. It only allows you to take things you normally can for a kineticist 4 levels higher (up to your total character level), which if you are full kineticist does nothing for you and never will. It also doesn't alter the limitation imposed by Expanded Element, aside from that, it is 3rd party. I'm assuming you and your GM know and are cool with that.

That one aside, Extra Wild Talent let's you pick one that is 2 levels lower than what you can at that level. Which at 9th is normally level 4 talents, meaning you can take a 1st or 2nd level talent only with that feat.

Hopefully that clears that up for you guys.

For the sake of trying to offer advice though... link or spoiler your current stats/build. It is usually best to know what we are working with fully. Also, if it is a yes on 3rd party, I'm assuming at least N Jolly's stuff is on the table if you were pulling from spheres of power.

I posted my lvl 12 (current lvl) stats in the op... what additional info would you like? I could post my char sheet or a list of items/skills?

[J_Eilonwy]

Xelaaredn wrote:

By that I meant a level by level breakdown, but just looking at your first post it seems you are missing a utility talent if you used a feat to pick one up.

That said, as a tentative answer to your original question, I would also have to agree on picking up one of the elements that allows for multiple damage type options. Personally I prefer earth over aether myself.

That said... are you only looking at 1st party elements?

Also, to save a bit of time for you guys, word of god?

** spoiler omitted **

ROLLED STATS

STR = 10
DEX = 17
CON = 18(+2 FROM HUMAN)
INT = 14
WIS = 14
CHA = 12

lvl 01: Cold Blast, Kinetic Blade(Inf), Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus
lvl 02: Kinetic Healer(WT), Shroud of Water(shield)
lvl 03: Extended Range(Inf), Toughness
lvl 04: +1DEX(18), Slick(WT)
lvl 05: Medium Armor, Entangling(Inf)
lvl 06: Veil of Mists(WT)
lvl 07: Kinetic Training, Expanded Element(Air), Air Blast, Blizzard Blast
lvl 08: +1DEX(19), Air Cushion(WT)
lvl 09: Extra Wild Talent(Wings of Air), Kinetic Whip(Inf)
lvl 10: Celerity(WT)
lvl 11: Heavy Armor, Wall(Inf)
lvl 12: +1DEX(20), Ice Path(WT)

Current Stats:
STR = 10 (14 with Armor)
DEX = 20 (24 with belt)
CON = 20 (24 with belt)
INT = 14
WIS = 14
CHA = 12 (16 with headband)

PLANNED??
lvl 13: Chilling(Inf), Combat Reflexes
lvl 14: Suffocate(WT)?
lvl 15: Expanded Element(Earth)?,Improved Initiative/Extra Wild Talent(Flesh of Stone)??

[Xelaaredn]

You could also pick up either Wood or Viscera if looking to be able to do all three physical damage types. Earth... as a third element kinda knocks away its usefulness as you can't pick up Rare Metal Infusion to bypass things like DR silver/adamantine. As far as taking a feat to get the defense... you need to look at how you want to distribute your burn for the day into those. A few points of DR is going to help, sure, but if you're taking on a bunch of nonlethal to both increases AC as well as DR... it won't take a whole lot of hits to drop you.

That's not even taking into consideration the max burn a day. There is a feat you might want to take a look at if you do decide to take two defence talents though. Burn Resistance, on the spheres of power site. Treat yourself as 2 levels lower for the amount of nonlethal you take per burn.

Out of Viscera and Wood... with what you already have, I'd go with Wood myself. If for no other reason than flavor.

That said... I'd like to throw Time out there, untyped damage so resistances aren't a thing to worry about. Nice lower level options, and Time Skip (functions as Light Speed Travel under Light), which is just awesome.

[Xelaaredn]

Also, I see you took Icepath, yet you don't have Icewalker which is the prerequisite. It is also kinda moot if you can fly.

[J_Eilonwy]

Xelaaredn wrote:

Also, I see you took Icepath, yet you don't have Icewalker which is the prerequisite. It is also kinda moot if you can fly.

You are correct, I would need Icewalker; that was supposed to assist the party in crossing gaps not me... so... :/

I have changed it to Suffocate.

I do not use burn to increase my AC nor would I use it for extra DR (my AC with basic Shroud of Water is 35ish[I don't have my sheet on me]), I save that for burst damage or emergency heals. The whole point is to make me tankier than I already am not burn myself to death, my build is sorta melee focused due to our party (Fighter, Archer, Mage, Me). I end up of tanking a lot so burn is something I hoard if possible.

I feel like DR would be better for tanking than Flesh of Wood... I could be wrong. Winter Blast looks fantastic!

I think I will be going with earth still... DR 7 when I can get it (eventually 10), Sandstorm Blast, shift earth for the party (I can fly).