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In our Return of the Runelord campaign last night, we fought off against the boss in the first chapter, and our multiclass (3-monk, 1-paladin, 1-oracle) tiefling with exceptionally high AC confidently strode right up to him. This link shows his path taken.
https://imgur.com/a/TuDNoyb
So he's unable to charge in that path due to allies in the way.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.
As he walks to the unoccupied square, he provokes two attacks of opportunity. During those two attacks the DM deemed that he was considered squeezing.
In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC. When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
The player says that you aren't considered squeezing but can move unimpeded through ally squares, that it's a friendly square so they're not hampering you from trying to dodge attacks.
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.
Since it only says that it doesn't provide you cover, (a benefit) and doesn't imply any conditions (such as a squeezing penalty) that he should have his max AC.
Due to the -4 penalty to AC he got walloped pretty hard, and with a follow up of a high damage roll on channel negative energy, his character died. None of us had anything to resurrect or really even went into healing much (we all just keep potions on hand) so he had to make a new character sheet. I know that it's pretty common to have to do so, but as you can imagine this ruling dictated his death so it's brought into question. Are you considered squeezing when moving through an allies square? Sure he could've circumvented all of it and just walked around the bosses AOO range, but his AC typically keeps him out of harms way and he was pretty confident.
Any thoughts or additional rulings that I haven't come across would be super helpful, I know movement in combat can be a hair pulling mess, so thanks to everyone in advance for their help! All emphasis quoting rulings are mine.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving
Seems like this specifically says you're treated as squeezing.
I don't think another part of the rules not saying you're treated as squeezing should take precedence.Not very well written rules, though.
As GM I would have at least warned the player that this was going to be my ruling and given him a chance to alter his plans...
Well the tiefling notes that he isn't moving into a square that doesn't fit his character, it's still a five foot square that he's going into, (the rules reference a large creature of 2x2 squares, trying to go into a 1 square wide hallway making him squeeze) so the square is sized to his character model, it just happens to be occupied...
Just because you can squeeze past another character doesn't mean moving past another creature is squeezing. If the tiefling wasn't moving through something smaller than his space, he shouldn't have been considered squeezing.
And therein lies our problem, if the rules state that you can't physically end your turn in the same square as another player, that would imply that the space is too small for him to be allowed there. Also if a medium sized character is moving through a long 2 1/2 foot wide hallway you could technically end a turn there and still be considered squeezing, so what does that say about the space shared between two characters? To Bill Dunn I guess it's how you read the statement, "you're allowed to move through characters because you are allowed to squeeze" or "you can take upon yourself the squeezed condition while moving past another character" and if it's the latter, I can't imagine anyone wanting to willingly do that.
And therein lies our problem, if the rules state that you can't physically end your turn in the same square as another player, that would imply that the space is too small for him to be allowed there. But on the other hand if you're squeezing through a long 2 1/2 foot wide hallway you could technically end a turn there and still be considered squeezing. So moving through a space proportional to your character model is, or is not, considered a square that is too small for you character if it is occupied by another player?
I don't think there's that much of a problem. If anything, this probably comes of trying to assume too much from information not explicitly in the rules. For example, since you can stop in a space that is smaller than where you are normally allowed, you can't really try to say the space is smaller to explain why you can't end the turn in another character's space. And since the rules allowing you to move through your friends make no reference to squeezing, you can't really assume that they imply squeezing is necessary or that the space you're moving through is small enough to require squeezing.
Yea you got my original post that I tried to insta-edit cause after reading it once I realized it sounded like garbage >.< But if you check my revised version I think it's a lot clearly what I was trying to say. And since the space occupied by another player seems to have it's own set of rules and interactions (namely two characters can't share the half of a 5' square, when one character alone is allowed to be in a 2.5' square). But when I imagine it in my head realistically I see someone turning sideways to get past someone else, like in a crowded hallway, which is exactly what I do when trying to shimmy down a narrow corridor in the attic.
Just asking the community if there is anything RAW or RAI or clarification source on how it's to be interpreted that would indicate that you do NOT take a squeeze penalty to AC from the line "A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving". Cause I kind of agree with the DM on this one.
Actually I think the hit knocked him out, and then his in-game best-friend tried to pull him out of range and put a cure moderate wounds in his mouth, and when he stood up the boss channeled negative energy and it was sleepy time for good.
Could you explain why he's not squeezing, and when moving through allies squares are there any effects? Positive or negative that come out, or are they just not important in case of movement unless you're trying to charge?
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There's so much misinformation being bandied about here that this thread may never become clear.
The game mechanic of squeezing should not have been involved in this instance. Squeezing is for literal squeezing, such as through a smaller hole or tunnel.
You and your DM are making mistake of believing that five foot squares are literal squares as though drawn on the floor. They are not. They are abstractions of area inside the game.
You and I can stand side by side in a five foot space, but in the game, my square is my square and yours is yours.
I'm assuming the rat guy is your friendly PC, in which case, he blocks the direct path of the charge. Your monk can move to him and through him but cannot do so while charging.
There was no squeezing. This was improperly ruled upon.
Would that mean that the moving past a character while squeezing rules that if we were in a 2 foot hallway, you in front and I behind, that I would be allowed to move past you? Or why is that rule even written?
"A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square."
Cause that's the only instance that I can think of where I would need to move past another person while in the scenario of squeezing that you indicate. Which.... seems improbable to say the least, as some "medium" sized characters can get to 8 feet (243cm) tall and weigh 500 pounds (226 kg), you'd have to burrow through them.
Would that mean that the moving past a character while squeezing rules that if we were in a 2 foot hallway, you in front and I behind, that I would be allowed to move past you? Or why is that rule even written?
"A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square."
Cause that's the only instance that I can think of where I would need to move past another person while in the scenario of squeezing that you indicate. Which.... seems improbable to say the least, as some "medium" sized characters can get to 8 feet (243cm) tall and weigh 500 pounds (226 kg), you'd have to burrow through them.
A squeezing creature can move though the space of another, friendly creature. That's what that rule says and is for.
Example: A glabrezu demon is huge. In a 10' hallway, it has to squeeze. A succubus is medium and in the same 10' hallway doesn't have to squeeze. That glabrezu can move up past the succubus by moving through her space (as long as he doesn't stop there). Hell, that glabrezu can move through the space of another friendly glabrezu even though they're both squeezing... but it's gonna cost him so much movement that he would have done better if he had teleported past him instead.
That... is an interesting interpretation of that rule... and I have a hard time agreeing with you, getting a free shadow walk to move through a physical object seems unlikely to be what paizo intended. It kind of spits in the face of the whole concept of Combat Maneuvers that treat characters as objects that need to be physical forced around to be moved.
That... is an interesting interpretation of that rule... and I have a hard time agreeing with you, getting a free shadow walk to move through a physical object seems unlikely to be what paizo intended. It kind of spits in the face of the whole concept of Combat Maneuvers that treat characters as objects that need to be physical forced around to be moved.
Those are enemy creatures. If you try to move through their space, you suffer an AoO or have to use acrobatics to skitter through (somehow... given fairly borked DCs, but that's a discussion for another thread). But with the squeezing rule, you can do it if you have enough movement and a really, really good acrobatics score.
Otherwise, you can squeeze past friendly creatures without worrying about combat maneuvers.
And where's this idea about a free shadow walk come from? Do you think the creatures involved actually fill the space they're allotted? Humans aren't 5' x 5' x 5' cubes of flesh. Nor should anyone assume that a creature absolutely fills its space (with the possible exception of a gelatinous cube). The spaces allocated by the size rules are convenient abstractions intended to allow the creature in it room to fight and defend themselves in an unhindered manner (squeeze into a smaller space and your combat abilities are hampered...).
There may be a little inhaling going on and some awkward brushing against and maybe even a "pardon me" and a badly placed elbow, but that glabrezu doesn't have to bore a tunnel through the one in his way.
Do you think the creatures involved actually fill the space they're allotted? Humans aren't 5' x 5' x 5' cubes of flesh. Nor should anyone assume that a creature absolutely fills its space (with the possible exception of a gelatinous cube). The spaces allocated by the size rules are convenient abstractions intended to allow the creature in it room to fight and defend themselves in an unhindered manner (squeeze into a smaller space and your combat abilities are hampered...)
Which presumably means that if two humanoid allies are (temporarily) standing in the same 5x5x5 space, their combat and defensive abilities are hampered.
Do you think the creatures involved actually fill the space they're allotted? Humans aren't 5' x 5' x 5' cubes of flesh. Nor should anyone assume that a creature absolutely fills its space (with the possible exception of a gelatinous cube). The spaces allocated by the size rules are convenient abstractions intended to allow the creature in it room to fight and defend themselves in an unhindered manner (squeeze into a smaller space and your combat abilities are hampered...)Which presumably means that if two humanoid allies are (temporarily) standing in the same 5x5x5 space, their combat and defensive abilities are hampered.
yes so much hampered that unless they have spacial abilities (ratfolk swarming etc) they CAN'T stay there together and fight.
you need room to move and dodge etc.
also to the op. it's hard to tell from the picture but the:
"he provokes two attacks of opportunity" .should only be if two enemies threat the area he leaves. remember that moving doesn't provoke more then once from each enemy no matter how many threatened 5 ft spaces you leave with the same movement.
yes so much hampered that unless they have spacial abilities (ratfolk swarming etc) they CAN'T stay there together and fight.
I suspect that's mostly because, when playing with miniatures, having two PCs in the same space is really inconvenient.
"You can choose to end your turn in the same space as an ally but you both take Squeeze penalties," would be more realistic rule than "You can't fit two people in a space that could take about nine people in real life", but would be pretty awkward to represent on the map.
also to the op. it's hard to tell from the picture but the:
"he provokes two attacks of opportunity" .should only be if two enemies threat the area he leaves. remember that moving doesn't provoke more then once from each enemy no matter how many threatened 5 ft spaces you leave with the same movement.
I'm pretty sure he provoked from both enemies simultaneously.
the image i see has red 'X' over so i can't tell if some were dead when he moved.
Looking at it some more, I think you're right about RAI.
Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC. When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
The last sentence is either declaring all movement past a creature to be squeezing, or it's saying that narrow spaces do not prevent moving past other creatures; eg, two ogres can pass one another in a 5 foot corridor. If it's the latter, it's a weird way of saying it.
But if it's the former, that means that passing through an ally not only gives you -4 to AC, it also makes it act as difficult terrain. And nothing else indicates that passing through an ally is difficult terrain, so that seems unlikely... Unless 'moving through a narrow space' is different from 'squeezing', since the two are listed separately in the first sentence.
I can confidently say I've never heard of anybody stating that moving through an ally's square costs double until today. Huh.
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Friend
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.
It is clear there are no penalties applied for moving through a friends square.
Squeezing
In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
Squeezing applies penalties.
Therefore, moving through a friends space is not Squeezing./cevah
You can’t just omit the entire second half of the squeezing paragraph that you quote when that’s what we’ve been trying to understand.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
While moving you squeeze past a creature, you have to respect that there’s a creature in the space you wish to freely occupy. And IF you can move freely through allies, are we truly at the consensus that the interpretation is I could “squeeze” past the 500 pound guy in the movie theatre aisle? For reference, google “500 pound human” and move past that guy in a two foot aisle, it’s generous of pathfinder to say he can squeeze in there at all himself let alone someone else taking ONLY a -4 to ac to squeeze past...
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You can’t just omit the entire second half of the squeezing paragraph that you quote when that’s what we’ve been trying to understand.
Are you suggestion there is a way to Squeeze without a penalty listed in that text? I don't see anything that would allow Squeezing without a penalty.
Since that penalty occurs if you Squeeze, then moving past a friendly is only the English word "squeeze" and not the game term "Squeeze".
/cevah
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
My interpretation of that sentence was that squeezing doesn't preclude the usual "you can move through an ally's square" rules, not that moving through an ally's square constituted squeezing.
I agree with blahpers
Okay I think I've put into phrases and pictures the scenarios that you guys are saying are how these rules work.
https://imgur.com/a/1Pjm3Jz
Personally I think that the 2nd scenario can easily be interpreted by a DM to fall under the "A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square," giving hero 2 the -4 to AC in both scenarios. Also I think that believing Paizo would drop a key word into a sentence but with the intention of it not having the key word's game meaning is incorrect and a dangerous habit to start forming. There are many synonyms to choose from in the English language that if they wanted to say squeezing without the in game meaning of the word, they would have used it.
In essence, talk to your DM and let them rule what they will in these scenarios cause I don't think there will be a game developer coming in to explain their intentions on the matter. I could see either interpretation, although I have my bias towards one.
Also I think that believing Paizo would drop a key word into a sentence but with the intention of it not having the key word's game meaning is incorrect and a dangerous habit to start forming.
Not really. It could have certainly be written better, without mixing rules language with common usage language, but it happens quite a lot in the rules.
What it comes down to is understanding the context of a set of rules. Rules about terrain and squeezing are not rules about allies moving past each other, and nothing really hints the two things are related, or should be treated the same, save that one single word. And I'd venture to guess that whoever was writing that rule at the time wasn't at all thinking about how narrow spaces slow movement speed - nor when whoever wrote the terrain squeezing rules were they thinking about allies moving past allies - how these two separate contextually different pieces of the rules would interact with each other wasn't a consideration. But that is just my opinion, which might very well be wrong.
EDIT: One side issue with your image. In the squeezing situation the devil cannot take a 5' step back, as you can't take 5' steps in difficult terrain.
Also I think that believing Paizo would drop a key word into a sentence but with the intention of it not having the key word's game meaning is incorrect and a dangerous habit to start forming.
Trust me there are plenty of times when a word means one thing when its a rule but will be used over and over again in other situations.
Well I intended in the image that Hero 1 took the 5' step back, but regardless you're right in that neither of them could take that action in difficult terrain. It seems like it can be interpreted either way and chosen by the DM, following the one writer or the other, just be sure to have your DM communicate it to you and allow for the players to change their mind as certain situations could be affected.