Muckles's page

Thanks to anyone taking time to answer an aspect of the game I find most don't want to bother with.

I'm a DM that likes to utilize any and all aspects of the game, it makes for crazy out of the box solutions and incredible power that comes from players creativity and personal investment and work into a game I greatly enjoy. I have a full party of 6 that have really gotten into creating unique magic items that fit their need, I'm also a hard RAW DM, but if they can show me the references and I confirm it through my own research, I always allow it.

Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Use-activated or continuous Spell
level x caster level x 2,000 gp2

Haste to be made into a permanent
3rd level spell x 5th level wizard x 2,000 = 30,000 gp

"If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half."

30,000 gp x 4 = 120,000 gp for a continual effect of the spell haste.

It seems a little insane to me that this effect would cost so much to be made permanent when you look at some of the other items you could get for 120k gold, you could get you could get a

So I looked into their own formula to craft boots of speed, since it's just an item based on a number of activations from a given spell.

Charges per day | Base Price ---> Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)
Single use, use-activated | Spell level x caster level x 50 gp

Quickened haste lvl 7 spell x wizard level 13 x 50 gp = 4550 gp
4550 gp / (5/10 charges) = 9,100 gp still a good margin below the 12,000 to make them, albeit Boots of Speed are activated as a free, not as a swift spell. Although it should count as 13 rounds per use considering it's a 13th lvl wizard putting the spell into the item, which would be significantly better than boots of speed imo at a lower cost.

I know, I know!

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item, the GM should require using the price of the item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect

so put your pitch forks down. But the same table gives a long list of examples that should illustrate their points on how magic items are made, and when I tried to replicate it, I could never get the math to work.

TL:DR How are you supposed to craft magic items and determine their cost, when the examples they give in the "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" on Magic Item Creation are unable to be replicated? I want to feel confident in letting my players make unique items, but I can't follow pathfinders calculations to ensure any degree of fairness.

I thought that with each casting that you wanted to be permanent you had to make pay the 22,500 gp cost that it mentions in the bottom?

"You can make this spell permanent with the permanency spell, at a cost of 22,500 gp. If you have cast create greater demiplane multiple times to enlarge the demiplane, each casting’s area requires its own permanency spell."

do you only pay that cost when enlarging it or when you add features?

Also to cast it is - Casting Time 6 hours
Components V, S, F (a forked metal rod worth at least 500 gp) which I guess in the long run past level 10 isn't a big deal

When casting this spell for the first time do you get to add all the options available to the plane that you so desire, and can cast it again to change those features, or do you need to make the plane, then cast it again for each additional aspect of the plane that you want to put into it? If so that is going to get real expensive really fast :(

Is additional casting in your plane specifically supposed to be more for making it bigger or lasting longer?

Thanks for everyone's help in advance!

For the feat of Dampen presence, which allows you to make stealth checks to avoid detection of opponents with blight sight/sense, does that also extend out or all the other senses/sights that reference blight sight as their functional basis such as lifesense?

For the feat of Dampen presence, which allows you to make stealth checks to avoid detection of opponents with blight sight/sense, does that also extend out or all the other senses/sights that reference blight sight as their functional basis such as lifesense?

First time playing summoner and we're in level 5 in the campaign, I chose the master summoner archetype and was naive enough to choose unchained summoner, which is an oxymoron as it turns out. So I spoke with my DM and he agreed to allow me to retrain. Due to the nature of the campaign, down time is very limited, so he was benevolent enough to allow training to happen instantaneously, but I still have to pay the gold price. My question is how much gold does it cost to retrain 5 levels of unchained summoner to "normal" summoner, and

1) why is unchained --> summoner not considered a synergy class?

2) So is it 10x5x7=350 x 5 levels 1750 gp total?

3) or 10x5x5=250 x 5 levels 1250 gp?

I only ask because we're a party of six, and even without spending practically any of my gold I only have 1500, which means I need to sell that +1 ring of protection I picked up in Chapter 1.

Well I intended in the image that Hero 1 took the 5' step back, but regardless you're right in that neither of them could take that action in difficult terrain. It seems like it can be interpreted either way and chosen by the DM, following the one writer or the other, just be sure to have your DM communicate it to you and allow for the players to change their mind as certain situations could be affected.

Seems a little silly to have summonable animals be fiendish and the spawns of hell not to be, but whatever. *shrug*

Here's what I got so far, emphasis mine.

Benefit: Pick any two templates from the following list (see Simple Summoning Templates below for details): aerial, aqueous, chthonic, dark, fiery, or primordial. When you summon one or more creatures that would normally be available with the celestial, entropic, fiendish, or resolute template using a summon monster spell (or an effect that mimics such a spell), you can instead apply one of the chosen templates to each creature. You can apply a different template to each creature you summon.

This template can be applied only to a non-outsider with none of the subtypes that follow...

Primordial creatures are magical precursors or echoes of creatures from the Material Plane. A primordial creature’s CR increases by 1 only if the base creature has 5 or more HD.

Rebuild Rules: Defensive Abilities gains DR as noted on the table below; SR gains SR equal to its new CR + 6; Speed gains a +10-ft. bonus to all speeds; Attacks the damage dice for one primary natural weapon increases as if the creature were one size larger (if the creature has more than one primary attack, the increased damage is applied to the first attack type it has from this list: bite, claw, slam, gore, talon, sting); Spell-Like Abilities gains spell-like abilities listed on the table below according to its Hit Dice (including all the spell-like abilities of lower-Hit Die primordial creatures), each available 1/day. The DCs of any saves against these abilities are equal to 10 + the primordial creature’s Charisma bonus + spell level.

Sorry for all the quotes, but finally here's my question. I have an evil summoner focused on using summon monster to summon only Devils/Demons/Daemons. Primordial template does not require anywhere in the template that it be a "non-outsider", but versatile monster feat says it can only be applied to creatures that would already have a fiendish or celestial template, so does summoning an evil outsider have it come with the fiendish template thus allowing me to add the primordial template (on top of evolved summon monster, augmented summoning, and the giant template from rod of giant summoning) to really get the biggest bang for my buck in my evil outsiders?

Okay I think I've put into phrases and pictures the scenarios that you guys are saying are how these rules work.

https://imgur.com/a/1Pjm3Jz

Personally I think that the 2nd scenario can easily be interpreted by a DM to fall under the "A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square," giving hero 2 the -4 to AC in both scenarios. Also I think that believing Paizo would drop a key word into a sentence but with the intention of it not having the key word's game meaning is incorrect and a dangerous habit to start forming. There are many synonyms to choose from in the English language that if they wanted to say squeezing without the in game meaning of the word, they would have used it.

In essence, talk to your DM and let them rule what they will in these scenarios cause I don't think there will be a game developer coming in to explain their intentions on the matter. I could see either interpretation, although I have my bias towards one.

You can’t just omit the entire second half of the squeezing paragraph that you quote when that’s what we’ve been trying to understand.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.

While moving you squeeze past a creature, you have to respect that there’s a creature in the space you wish to freely occupy. And IF you can move freely through allies, are we truly at the consensus that the interpretation is I could “squeeze” past the 500 pound guy in the movie theatre aisle? For reference, google “500 pound human” and move past that guy in a two foot aisle, it’s generous of pathfinder to say he can squeeze in there at all himself let alone someone else taking ONLY a -4 to ac to squeeze past...

That... is an interesting interpretation of that rule... and I have a hard time agreeing with you, getting a free shadow walk to move through a physical object seems unlikely to be what paizo intended. It kind of spits in the face of the whole concept of Combat Maneuvers that treat characters as objects that need to be physical forced around to be moved.

Oh I went and read the invisibility spell and I read this line

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

So I thought you could just make it go invis with you. The count it as an attack to force breaking stealth would be a good house rule to reign in excessive thievery although I don't think RAW it would, although being the impish devil that I am my mind immediately goes to greater invis for those juicy items one wishes to extract without repercussions... :D

Thanks for everyone's advice and counsel, I can see how becoming a kleptomaniac could easily destroy the fun for the party if that was a big focus for a character and I'll keep it in mind.

Would that mean that the moving past a character while squeezing rules that if we were in a 2 foot hallway, you in front and I behind, that I would be allowed to move past you? Or why is that rule even written?

"A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square."

Cause that's the only instance that I can think of where I would need to move past another person while in the scenario of squeezing that you indicate. Which.... seems improbable to say the least, as some "medium" sized characters can get to 8 feet (243cm) tall and weigh 500 pounds (226 kg), you'd have to burrow through them.

When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Perception check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.

Now I've always thought of sleight of hand as meeting any normal DC skill check, such as a knowledge, (you wish to know about this duke? match or exceed a DC 15 knowledge (local)) in that if I wish to take something from you unnoticed, roll your perception, and I'll see if I meet that DC and get to take it from you without you noticing. And in my previous games my DM has ruled that if they notice you they effectively "slap your hand out of the way" and you don't get the item and they caught you trying to thieve.

But after reading the rules a little more carefully, it sounds like all you need to do is match a measly DC 20 sleight of hand, which isn't too hard with a class skill in SoH and gloves of larceny, by level 5 you're looking at >75% success rate on pilfering stuff. But you have to beat someone's perception to go unnoticed, now how it reads is I as the thief make an artificial DC using my sleight of hand, and now you as the one getting robbed have to make a perception check and if you match or exceed my sleight of hand DC then you notice that I stole something, buuuuut I still have it in my hands and can just book it and hopefully get away with it... (seems especially broken if I'm invisible and put the item in my cloak, making it invisible and just walk away)

I brought this up with my DM and he mentioned that playing it that way would be worse for us as a party cause he could get a couple of fast NPC's that could easily meet the DC 20 to steal and just make off with some of our important magical items that we've spent a lot of money trying to get whether we notice them or not. Do any of the GM's in the forums play by similar set of rules whereby if your perception check matches the SoH that they don't get the item? I tried to find situations that would add to the SoH DC, but it seems like there isn't anything outside of attaching them to your body so they can't be removed from your person. Just seems to me that taking stuff is achievable early and downright exploitable later on.

Actually I think the hit knocked him out, and then his in-game best-friend tried to pull him out of range and put a cure moderate wounds in his mouth, and when he stood up the boss channeled negative energy and it was sleepy time for good.

Could you explain why he's not squeezing, and when moving through allies squares are there any effects? Positive or negative that come out, or are they just not important in case of movement unless you're trying to charge?

Yea you got my original post that I tried to insta-edit cause after reading it once I realized it sounded like garbage >.< But if you check my revised version I think it's a lot clearly what I was trying to say. And since the space occupied by another player seems to have it's own set of rules and interactions (namely two characters can't share the half of a 5' square, when one character alone is allowed to be in a 2.5' square). But when I imagine it in my head realistically I see someone turning sideways to get past someone else, like in a crowded hallway, which is exactly what I do when trying to shimmy down a narrow corridor in the attic.

Just asking the community if there is anything RAW or RAI or clarification source on how it's to be interpreted that would indicate that you do NOT take a squeeze penalty to AC from the line "A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving". Cause I kind of agree with the DM on this one.

And therein lies our problem, if the rules state that you can't physically end your turn in the same square as another player, that would imply that the space is too small for him to be allowed there. Also if a medium sized character is moving through a long 2 1/2 foot wide hallway you could technically end a turn there and still be considered squeezing, so what does that say about the space shared between two characters? To Bill Dunn I guess it's how you read the statement, "you're allowed to move through characters because you are allowed to squeeze" or "you can take upon yourself the squeezed condition while moving past another character" and if it's the latter, I can't imagine anyone wanting to willingly do that.

Well the tiefling notes that he isn't moving into a square that doesn't fit his character, it's still a five foot square that he's going into, (the rules reference a large creature of 2x2 squares, trying to go into a 1 square wide hallway making him squeeze) so the square is sized to his character model, it just happens to be occupied...

In our Return of the Runelord campaign last night, we fought off against the boss in the first chapter, and our multiclass (3-monk, 1-paladin, 1-oracle) tiefling with exceptionally high AC confidently strode right up to him. This link shows his path taken.

https://imgur.com/a/TuDNoyb

So he's unable to charge in that path due to allies in the way.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.

As he walks to the unoccupied square, he provokes two attacks of opportunity. During those two attacks the DM deemed that he was considered squeezing.

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC. When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.

The player says that you aren't considered squeezing but can move unimpeded through ally squares, that it's a friendly square so they're not hampering you from trying to dodge attacks.

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

Since it only says that it doesn't provide you cover, (a benefit) and doesn't imply any conditions (such as a squeezing penalty) that he should have his max AC.

Due to the -4 penalty to AC he got walloped pretty hard, and with a follow up of a high damage roll on channel negative energy, his character died. None of us had anything to resurrect or really even went into healing much (we all just keep potions on hand) so he had to make a new character sheet. I know that it's pretty common to have to do so, but as you can imagine this ruling dictated his death so it's brought into question. Are you considered squeezing when moving through an allies square? Sure he could've circumvented all of it and just walked around the bosses AOO range, but his AC typically keeps him out of harms way and he was pretty confident.

Any thoughts or additional rulings that I haven't come across would be super helpful, I know movement in combat can be a hair pulling mess, so thanks to everyone in advance for their help! All emphasis quoting rulings are mine.