Hey All!
#1 Question about the interaction with this. Given the familiar has the construct type, when it increases from tiny to medium, does it gain the +20 bonus hit points?
#2 Would this change function like temporary hit points, meaning I could cycle through my 3x per day ability to shift back and forth to effectively give myself up to +60 HP worth of "free HP"?
#3 The text in the Evolved Familiar feat states "The familiar must conform to any limitations of the evolution. For instance, no familiars can benefit from the mount evolution." This text pre-dates the mauler familiar archetype where none were ever bigger than small. This is clearly now no longer the case, as if I'm small I can certainly ride many familiars that become medium. Does this "for example" preclude me from taking it and push this completely into "you can't do it, DM fiat." or is it just an example and not meant to be taken as literal rules text?
(Note: The ultimate goal here is to make a familiar that's actually somewhat combat capable.)
Hey All!
#1 Question about the interaction with this. Given the familiar has the construct type, when it increases from tiny to medium, does it gain the +20 bonus hit points?
#2 Would this change function like temporary hit points, meaning I could cycle through my 3x per day ability to shift back and forth to effectively give myself up to +60 HP worth of "free HP"?
#3 The text in the Evolved Familiar feat states "The familiar must conform to any limitations of the evolution. For instance, no familiars can benefit from the mount evolution." This text pre-dates the mauler familiar archetype where none were ever bigger than small. This is clearly now no longer the case, as if I'm small I can certainly ride many familiars that become medium. Does this "for example" preclude me from taking it and push this completely into "you can't do it, DM fiat." or is it just an example and not meant to be taken as literal rules text?
(Note: The ultimate goal here is to make a familiar that's actually somewhat combat capable.)
#1: Because familiars always base their HP on their master then the familiar would not gain additional HP by changing size unless the effect causing the size change also adds HP.
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
additionally
In battle form, the mauler’s size becomes Medium and it gains a +2 size bonus to its Strength score. Since many familiars are Tiny or Diminutive, be sure to check for any additional Strength and Dexterity adjustments for increasing in size from Tiny or Diminutive to Medium. This is a polymorph effect.
note that it doesn't state that the familiar's constitution changes nor would it matter since a familiar's constitution doesn't contribute to it's HP or saves.
#2: as stated above it wouldn't gain hp, temporary or otherwise
#3: The clocksmith archetype can't give evolutions that require specific forms, mount is one such evolution. That being said, if you took the evolved familiar feat. You would be able to select mount. Notice that the feat doesn't state that you couldn't pick mount, it just points out that no familiars (at the time it was written) would actually benefit from it. So, if you took the feat I see no reason you couldn't pick the mount evolution. Though, you would only be able to make use of it while it meets all of the requirements of the evolution (having a quadruped or serpentine body and being at least 1 size category larger then it's master)
What is the source of the "+20 hit points"?
What is the source of the "+20 hit points"?
The Construct type. The type grants bonus HP based on size.
#1: Because familiars always base their HP on their master then the familiar would not gain additional HP by changing size unless the effect causing the size change also adds HP.
That's why I am asking. It is a factor of the size change. Your construct type familiar changes from tiny to medium. Tiny constructs get 0 bonus hitpoints per the rules for the construct type. Medium creatures get +20 bonus hit points due to the construct type. Totally understand that CON changes don't matter, but it's unclear if this modification due to size comes into play or not.
It would add to the base creature hp, which you can use if it's higher than half its masters hp.
The problem is, if getting big gives it 20 hp then when it shrinks it loses those hp but not the damage. Like a (chained) barbarian exiting rage.
while that wording is present for Saving throws, Hitdice and skills (that you use the base familiar or master's whichever is higher), HP lacks that wording. In fact it expressly states that the familiar's HP total is equal to 1/2 the master's HP regardless how many HD the familiar is considered to have. This means that this is how it's HP are calculated even if it would normally have more. In extreme cases a familiar can have more Hit Dice then it has Hit Points.
It would add to the base creature hp, which you can use if it's higher than half its masters hp.
The problem is, if getting big gives it 20 hp then when it shrinks it loses those hp but not the damage. Like a (chained) barbarian exiting rage.
while that wording is present for Saving throws, Hitdice and skills (that you use the base familiar or master's whichever is higher), HP lacks that wording. In fact it expressly states that the familiar's HP total is equal to 1/2 the master's HP regardless how many HD the familiar is considered to have. This means that this is how it's HP are calculated even if it would normally have more. In extreme cases a familiar can have more Hit Dice then it has Hit Points.
Sorry but I have to fundamentally disagree with your interpretation of this phrasing. While it does state that it's HP is equal to the half the master's total, I see nothing to suggest that it is not subject to modification after the fact. You are treating this as a "global override" rather than how the familiar's base HP from hit dice are calculated.
Let me phrase in a different way - are familiars immune to the 5 hp reduction to total HP from eating a negative level? Are you really not going to let someone Bear's Endurance their familiar? I really don't think most GMs are going to rule that this phrasing works in that way.
So far the most compelling argument I've seen it doesn't work this way is the one about it being off a constructs base size, which I would like a rules quote for since the construct type simply says "size", and there's no mention of the word "base" in that phrasing. It does seem logical this text COULD exist somewhere, but I'm not sure where to look for it.
Let me phrase in a different way - are familiars immune to the 5 hp reduction to total HP from eating a negative level? Are you really not going to let someone Bear's Endurance their familiar? I really don't think most GMs are going to rule that this phrasing works in that way.
In my experiences, that is how it is usually interpreted. The only thing that can change this number is something that explicitly changes the hit points of your familiar like Mauler's Endurance.
It would add to the base creature hp, which you can use if it's higher than half its masters hp.
The problem is, if getting big gives it 20 hp then when it shrinks it loses those hp but not the damage. Like a (chained) barbarian exiting rage.
while that wording is present for Saving throws, Hitdice and skills (that you use the base familiar or master's whichever is higher), HP lacks that wording. In fact it expressly states that the familiar's HP total is equal to 1/2 the master's HP regardless how many HD the familiar is considered to have. This means that this is how it's HP are calculated even if it would normally have more. In extreme cases a familiar can have more Hit Dice then it has Hit Points.
Sorry but I have to fundamentally disagree with your interpretation of this phrasing. While it does state that it's HP is equal to the half the master's total, I see nothing to suggest that it is not subject to modification after the fact. You are treating this as a "global override" rather than how the familiar's base HP from hit dice are calculated.
Let me phrase in a different way - are familiars immune to the 5 hp reduction to total HP from eating a negative level? Are you really not going to let someone Bear's Endurance their familiar? I really don't think most GMs are going to rule that this phrasing works in that way.
Yes and no, a familiar's base HP is not modified by it's con score. So, if a temporary effect (like say bear's endurance) changes it's con score the following would occur.
It's base fort save would increase, as normal since it only uses the highest base modifier.
The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.
Its hp on the other hand would be completely unmodified since it's HP is specifically unaffected by it's HD. This matters because the amount of bonus hp you get is equal to your con modxHD. It would still be subject to negative levels as normal unless its a creature type that is immune to them. If those negative levels exceed it's total HD (calculated either on the familiar or master whichever is higher) it would suffer the normal ramifications of this.
So far the most compelling argument I've seen it doesn't work this way is the one about it being off a constructs base size, which I would like a rules quote for since the construct type simply says "size", and there's no mention of the word "base" in that phrasing. It does seem logical this text COULD exist somewhere, but I'm not sure where to look for it.
I agree that I don't see anything that states that the bonus HP gained by constructs only applies in its base form. I believe in the construct modification rules it even talks about how if you add enough HD to a construct it automatically advances in size and gains the associated benefits.
The mauler size change ability is however, a polymorph effect, which by default doesn't grant you all the benefits you would normally get. It specfies a few things you get and anything beyond those have to be granted by the effect. This is reflected by higher "form of" spells granting more/better abilities even if you're using them to turn into the same creature.
For example: Enlarge person grants +2 str bonus, instead of the normal +8 a creature gets going from medium to large. The only reason you even get a +2 is because the spell says you get a +2. Without that wording your str wouldn't change at all.
It's hard for me to point to a rule since the reality is. I don't see anything in the mauler ability or the normal familiar traits that state the it gains bonus hp based on its creature type.
So, if a temporary effect (like say bear's endurance) changes it's con score
Yes, but Bear's Endurance then goes on to state:
The spell grants the subject a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution, which adds the usual benefits to hit points, Fortitude saves, Constitution checks, and so forth.
So I can just as easily argue that while normally the familiar's constitution is not normally involved in determining it's hit points, this spell "adds the usual benefits" of a +4 increase to constitution, which is specifically 2 hp/hit die of the affected subject (assuming it does, of course, have a con score. This clearly wouldn't work in my particular use case since mine wouldn't have a con score to increase, but speaking in the more general sense.)
I'm down with saying that everything works specific to the given spell, ability, etc that's impacting it, but it leaves my with my fundamental challenge that at this point I think is just going to end up as a DM decision.
The mauler size change ability is however, a polymorph effect, which by default doesn't grant you all the benefits you would normally get. It specfies a few things you get and anything beyond those have to be granted by the effect.
Correct. one of the items listed is "size modifiers" and then it goes on to list some of them out. What I don't know, and what I will probably never know, is if this is just such an exceedingly specific edge case that it falls under the "waste of ink and bloated rules" category. And this is so absurdly specific that it definitely isn't worthy of a FAQ, either.
I know in the distant past days of 3.5, SKR ruled that you DID get it for the polymorph subschool. It's ancient, but it's all I could really find when I looked into it on my own. However in this day and age it's just circumstantial at best, no longer really applicable in any meaningful sense.
So, if a temporary effect (like say bear's endurance) changes it's con scoreYes, but Bear's Endurance then goes on to state:
The spell grants the subject a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution, which adds the usual benefits to hit points, Fortitude saves, Constitution checks, and so forth.So I can just as easily argue that while normally the familiar's constitution is not normally involved in determining it's hit points, this spell "adds the usual benefits" of a +4 increase to constitution, which is specifically 2 hp/hit die of the affected subject (assuming it does, of course, have a con score. This clearly wouldn't work in my particular use case since mine wouldn't have a con score to increase, but speaking in the more general sense.)
well, it says they get the "usual" benefits. So, if something doesn't normally gain additional hp from having an increased constitution then I don't see why a spell that grants "usual benefits" would either. By the same token if a creature gets double the normal bonus in hp from con then I would expect the spell to work the same way.
The mauler size change ability is however, a polymorph effect, which by default doesn't grant you all the benefits you would normally get. It specfies a few things you get and anything beyond those have to be granted by the effect.Correct. one of the items listed is "size modifiers" and then it goes on to list some of them out. What I don't know, and what I will probably never know, is if this is just such an exceedingly specific edge case that it falls under the "waste of ink and bloated rules" category. And this is so absurdly specific that it definitely isn't worthy of a FAQ, either.
I know in the distant past days of 3.5, SKR ruled that you DID get it for the polymorph subschool. It's ancient, but it's all I could really find when I looked into it on my own. However in this day and age it's just circumstantial at best, no longer really applicable in any meaningful sense.
Interesting, it certainly gives some weight in your favor. I know that I've had to resort to 3.5 rules when it comes to extreme edge cases that pathfinder is surprisingly silent on. Pathfinder is heavily based on 3.5 and so if 3.5 says X and pathfinder is silent on the subject, its not unreasonable to assume that X is still the case. As I've said my only reason for stating that you don't get it is that I can't find anything that states that you do. And the lists that state what you do get are an inherently inclusive only.