This question will receive more answers when it is moved out of the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Playtest subforum.
I had thought that Polymorph Familiar was a great spell for my bloodrager NPC who had taken an archetype that gave her a familiar. Unfortunately, in reviewing the spell with me, the players decided that the small animal restriction applied to the higher versions of Beast Shape, too. This let the familiar gain a few more abilities, but being stuck at small animals, not even a tiny animal, was no fun.
A 3rd-level spell that could fully mimic 6th-level Beast Shape IV, even when limited to just the familiar, would be too powerful. Bloodragers don't even get 6th-level spells.
Whichever way the spell is meant to be, it's worded poorly. But all in all I find myself agreeing with Mathmuse's players; the "Small animal" restriction always holds.
Disagree.
The restriction of small animal is applied only to the beast shape I portion of the spell.
"At caster level 7, this spell functions as beast shape II." Period. No restrictions.
The spell is not overpowered. Whereas beastshape can normally be applied to familiars or casters, this spell is limited strictly to the familiars.
Shamans do not get access to beast shape; and witches involve their familiars in combat strictly at their peril; to lose their familiar is to lose spell casting.
There’s no official answer here. Just people’s opinions. So it works whichever way your GM thinks it works.
What Mark Seifter said was-
As usual, not an official answer, but it seems pretty clear to me that the size limitation is consistent at all levels, but what changes is you can pick up stronger abilities like pounce and blindsense.
My opinion is that Perfect Tommy is entirely correct for the reason they give. I can't see any reason for questioning the interpretation of the text.
The other side of the argument is that Mark has the magic word "designer" next to his name. And still does even if he says it is not official and just their opinion.
It is what it is. The writing could be clearer
I can't say I agree. I do not know why anyone thinks that the limitations in the first paragraph apply to the second paragraph.
Casters can always share a personal spell onto their familiar and the spell level scales with the powers.
A good use of this is to cast Shadow Projection on your familiar. This makes your familiar a shadow for an hour a level, which is a long time. Given how dangerous Shadows are and that many monsters can't do anything to a shadow this is great.
my usual advice for wizards is to choose bonded object amulet over familiar and use blood sentinel:T3 if needed..
Why? You just think the bondage object is better?
Anyone else think this discussion spilled over from another site?
Cant see any other reason why one person would do a 5-year necro to make an argument and immediately get someone taking the other side.
I have resurrected ancient threads without realising I was doing it. They can show up on a search and unless you look at the date of posts, and you often don't, you have no way of knowing the thread is archaic.
That would be my guess as to what happened here.
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I can't say I agree. I do not know why anyone thinks that the limitations in the first paragraph apply to the second paragraph.
This spell functions as beast shape I, except it grants your familiar the form of any Small animal. Your familiar retains all of its special abilities and continues to grant you the special ability associated with its normal shape (such as a bat familiar’s bonus on Fly checks).At caster level 7th, this spell functions as beast shape II. At caster level 9th, it functions as beast shape III. At caster level 11th, it functions as beast shape IV.
It is simple, First row of text:
"This spell functions as beast shape I, except it grants your familiar the form of any Small animal."
To apply the changes you get at level 7, you update that text with what the spell says change:
"At caster level 7th, this spell functions as beast shape II, except it grants your familiar the form of any Small animal."
Same thing at levels 9 and 11.
It never says the size limitation is lifted, so the size limitation is not lifted.
It never says that "Your familiar retains all of its special abilities and continues to grant you the special ability associated with its normal shape" changes, so it never changes.
The only thing that changes is what version of Beast shape you use. All the other limitations stay. The advantage of the higher Beast shape spells is that you get access to way more special abilities.
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Why not just cast Polymorph on your familiar. Then you aren't bound by the restrictions of Polymorph Familiar.
Because polymorph familiar is a 3rd-level spell, not a 5th.
You can cast personal range spells on familiars, so you could just cast beast shape IV on your little buddy once you reach wizard level 11. But, same reason.
Small is specified. But how specified is the “animal” part? Beast shape 3 would normally allow you to choose a small magical beast. So is “small animal” just limited to animals or is that just because beast shape 1 is also limited to animals?
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Small is specified. But how specified is the “animal” part? Beast shape 3 would normally allow you to choose a small magical beast. So is “small animal” just limited to animals or is that just because beast shape 1 is also limited to animals?
I read it as "Your familiar is always limited to the shape of a Small animal". It is a 3rd level spell that, at higher levels, already gives the special abilities granted by higher-level spells.
Having it give the full benefits of a 6th-level spell is a bit overpowered.ACG isn't the best book for balanced stuff, but I think the less powerful interpretation is the most credible.
I don’t think it’s overpowered. You are giving these abilities to your familiar, that is fairly worthless in combat no matter what form it takes. The strongest case is a shaman with a mauler familiar and even then that’s fairly weak and a huge risk on the part of the shaman.
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I don’t think it’s overpowered. You are giving these abilities to your familiar, that is fairly worthless in combat no matter what form it takes. The strongest case is a shaman with a mauler familiar and even then that’s fairly weak and a huge risk on the part of the shaman.
It seems you considering only the large size and direct combat. Beast Shape IV gives access to the form of a magical beast from diminutive to large and a large set of abilities. The familiar isn't forced to be a large physical brute using melee attacks.
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I don’t think it’s overpowered. You are giving these abilities to your familiar, that is fairly worthless in combat no matter what form it takes. The strongest case is a shaman with a mauler familiar and even then that’s fairly weak and a huge risk on the part of the shaman.It seems you considering only the large size and direct combat. Beast Shape IV gives access to the form of a magical beast from diminutive to large and a large set of abilities. The familiar isn't forced to be a large physical brute using melee attacks.
And don't forget that the Mauler's Battle Form ability is a polymorph effect. You can't use it and polymorph familiar at the same time.
Over the years I've come to the conclusion that if you really want a melee combat familiar without taking a massive risk, the best choice is probably a figment that you buff up with spells. (If of a class that is allowed to have a figment).
I didn’t forget those things, I accounted for them when I said it wasn’t very powerful. But let’s get some counter examples. What form would you give your familiar that would be very powerful if magical beasts were an option? How would it be very powerful?
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I didn’t forget those things, I accounted for them when I said it wasn’t very powerful. But let’s get some counter examples. What form would you give your familiar that would be very powerful if magical beasts were an option? How would it be very powerful?
You forget "for a third-level spell".
Tiny magical beast: If the form you take is that of a Tiny magical beast, you gain a –2 penalty to your Strength, a +8 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +3 natural armor bonus.
Your familiar gets +3 points of natural armor, and a +4 to his touch AC. Depending on the original size the can hen can get a -2 to a +1 for becoming Tiny.
Show me another spell third level that gives a creature from +5 to +8 to its AC, Flight 120 Good, and potentially other benefits.Putting it another way: show me a 3rd-level spell that does the same as a 6th-level spell.
What is "Very powerful" is totally situation dependant. This spell gives the familiar the ability to adapt to the situation at hand.
Again, I accounted for all of that. And what use is all that AC and dexterity? If you are just trying to protect your familiar then you could have just cast Merge with Familiar one level lower and that lasts all adventuring day. Seriously, it sounds nice but what actual utility are you getting out of this as opposed to casting haste, circles or even fireball?
If you could cast it on any creature, it might have some uses. But on a familiar? That sounds like a trap option or a cosmetic option. There are better ways to achieve whatever you are trying to do there.
if you eat a figment you're hungry 1r later...